Naturally - we have the advantage of "hindsight" as it were. We can examine the N.T., and extrapolate it to interpret passages from the O.T. The fact does remain - however, that the author of Genesis had no clue who Jesus was in light of what we are aware of. So, whether or not it was Jesus, or God the father in the mind of the author of Genesis (Let's say it was Moses)
it is clear that the connection to the future incarnation is not readily recognized. Can't see how the answer to the question can be considered definitive - nor do i think it matters a whole lot in the final analysis of things. Just an interesting question to ponder I guess. It could have easily just been an angel who had commented on the overall assessment of Jacob's struggles with his lifelong relationship to Man and God. I can see that as a viable presumption. I would think that it definitely was not God the Father though, as it would throw some doubt on Jesus saying that no man has seen God.

funch:

so did God command all the animals in the garden of eden not to eat off the tree or did he just commanded Adam and Eve not to ..because clearly there were animals that may like to eat apples even insects that may have fancied apples

so if no other animals had the sense not to eat the apple was that an indication that Adam and Eve had less sense then all the other animals and insects ...also just because Adam supposely named all the animals is no indication of intelligence because language is nothing more than specified grunts or chemical scents made or released by any species

TRIBO:

so do the other animals reason? Are they capable of telling back what was said to them? do lesser animals have cognizence of being? were they able to grasp the fruit to pick it from the tree? how high up were the limbs?


and it wasn't an apple it was not specified what fruit it was. maybe it was a fruit only mankind could eat.doesn't say one way or the other.

Personally i think it was just a man but - maybe an angel at most - i think people take it to literally. but i agree it was definitely not god the father. nor the the son, just dont fit somehow as i stated. none of the other epiphanies of christ dealt with contact with other men corrct? So if this was an epiphany of jesus it is outside the realm of any other occurence in the book - it stands alone - and thats not good for exigisis sake.

because Eve was on the apple diet

Yes, I would tend to agree. I believe there are other examples of "epiphanies" (as you call them)
in the O.T., but then again - the same uncertainties arise as it is never stated that it is specifically the Father or the Son. And interpretatively - it is of little value to cross reference it with the N.T. - because in that circumstance, Jesus was here. I don't recall Jesus alluding to any of the O.T. references of these epiphanies either. I guess it was not intended that the specifics be known. Just another interpretation to disagree about between the "Cath's and the filthy Prots", eh?

yes 'Tribo" other animals do reason ..


yes if just like Adam and Eve they ate from the Tree of Knowledge


did Adam and Eve? ..remember they had no idea they were maked


a fruit bat could have flown onto the fruit and ate the fruit but yet none of the other animals ate from the fruit ..which is an indication why Adam and Eve may not have been the smartest dwellers in the Garden of Eden

Well funch let's take a close look at the text:

Chapter 2
6 But there rose a fountain out of the earth, and watered the whole face of the earth. 7 And God formed the man [of] dust of the earth, and breathed upon his face the breath of life, and the man became a living soul. 8 And God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and placed there the man whom he had formed. 9 And God made to spring up also out of the earth every tree beautiful to the eye and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil. 10 And a river proceeds out of Eden to water the garden, thence it divides itself into four heads. 11 The name of the one, Phis-om, this it is which encircles the whole land of Evilat, where there is gold. 12 And the gold of that land is good, there also is carbuncle and emerald. 13 And the name of the second river is Geon, this it is which encircles the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the third river is Tigris, this is that which flows forth over against the Assyrians. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

15 And the Lord God took the man whom he had formed, and placed him in the garden of Delight, to cultivate and keep it. 16 And the Lord God gave a charge to Adam, saying, Of every tree which is in the garden thou mayest freely eat, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil– of it ye shall not eat, but in whatsoever day ye eat of it, ye shall surely die.

Tribo:

He placed man in the garden to " cultivate and keep it[maintain it] do animals maintain their grazing or eating habitats?? do they farm or keep it in good order? any animal??

the lord god gave a charge - [an order]- and if he were to as the story says " but in whatsoever day ye eat of it, ye shall surely die." the word "whatsoever" is the same as whenever - so god already foreknew that adam/eve would eat from it in the future.




Chapter 3:


.6 And the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes to look upon and beautiful to contemplate, and having taken of its fruit she ate, and she gave to her husband also with her, and they ate. 7 And the eyes of both were opened, and they perceived that they were naked, and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons to go round them. 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the afternoon; and both Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God in the midst of the trees of the garden. 9 And the Lord God called Adam and said to him, Adam, where art thou? 10 And he said to him, I heard thy voice as thou walkedst in the garden, and I feared because I was naked and I hid myself. 11 And God said to him, Who told thee that thou wast naked, unless thou hast eaten of the tree concerning which I charged thee of it alone not to eat? 12 And Adam said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me– she gave me of the tree and I ate. 13 And the Lord God said to the woman, Why hast thou done this? And the woman said, The serpent deceived me and I ate.

where in the above do you see what is perceived as animal nature?

and again what animals "reason"? what is funches definition for >>reason<<? can't wait to here this.

T:
Are they capable of telling back what was said to them?

F:
yes if just like Adam and Eve they ate from the Tree of Knowledge

T:
does it say they did? or are you presuming again - stay with the text!

T:
do lesser animals have cognizence of being?

F:
did Adam and Eve? ..remember they had no idea they were maked

T:

no it doen't say they had no idea they were naked - it says: "And the two were naked, both Adam and his wife, and were not ashamed." they saw there nakedness but were not ashmed of it - another of your fallicies funch.


T:
were they able to grasp the fruit to pick it from the tree?
how high up were the limbs?

F:
a fruit bat could have flown onto the fruit and ate the fruit but yet none of the other animals ate from the fruit ..which is an indication why Adam and Eve may not have been the smartest dwellers in the Garden of Eden


T:

hmm lets see, so far they >till the land< and are made to >dominate< "all" the other animals and rule over them - that's what "having "dominion" means, and have named all the animals,then they are given charge by an athority to obey the charge not to eat of the fruit [even though god knew they would] and are able to reason that eating the fruit is a good thing to do even though they were told not to. hmmm? yep sounds like animal behavior to me - so just what animal acts like that funch? tell me please = fruit bats? nope. gazelle's? nope - fill me in please - are you saying it's you??

Correct all three had/have their own particular functions, so as i asked in the OP - if lets say now all 3 were in the garden walking - why did god have to fill the others in or make them aware of what was going on and what was intended to be done about it? "22 And God said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil," were they not already aware of it?

" Why hast thou done this? Again did he/they not know this already?

"And the Lord God called Adam and said to him, Adam, where art thou? Again, whats up?

" And the Lord God said to the woman, Why hast thou done this?

Why would an all knowing god have any questions about all that has taken place? you say its because he wanted to hear it from adam? if so it makes god look foolish. eljay states it's for the benifit of the reader, but i cant accept that because it could have been easily stated differently than it is without haveing to make it appear as god had questions as to what had taken place. Like: "well since you have knowledge of your nakedness you have eaten of the tree and for this blah.blah,blah."

This is also true of gods other questions unless you think that later mankind was so ignorant that he could not deduce gods actions unless written that way? is this what you believe?

yes "Tribo" there are animals and even insects that till the land...a leaf cutter ant cut leaves and use them to grow a fungus that they use for food and the ants have to "till the land" so that the fungus can grow


dominion? exactly what was they telling the animals to do? ..was the animals killing each other or something or was Eden a paradise ..so what is this dominion stuff you're talking about


did the other animals understand the names Adam and Eve gave to them or did they give the animals name tags or something or was the names just understandable solely to Adam and Eve ..again language is a matter of grunts or chemical scents used by all species not just Humans


you can train animals to do the same ..and sometimes they may violate those orders and not understand that they just did something wrong


well 'Tribo" if God knew "Eons" beforehand but decided to let the events take place anyway .. then you have to place the blame where it belongs ...it's all God's fault ..it's about time you let God take the responsibilty for what took place and stop blaming the simpletons he created for being simpletons

QUOTE:

hmm lets see, so far they >till the land<

F:
yes "Tribo" there are animals and even insects that till the land...a leaf cutter ant cut leaves and use them to grow a fungus that they use for food and the ants have to "till the land" so that the fungus can grow

T:

no they gather or eat or store foods they do not plant or grow or weed or water.



T:
and are made to >dominate< "all" the other animals and rule over them - that's what "having "dominion" means,

F:
dominion? exactly what was they telling the animals to do? ..was the animals killing each other or something or was Eden a paradise ..so what is this dominion stuff you're talking about

T:

dominion - in this instance, is being OVER all the animals, a higher standing - able to rule if and when necessary, and just being there as a guiding force if not.

T:


and have named all the animals,

F:
did the other animals understand the names Adam and Eve gave to them or did they give the animals name tags or something or was the names just understandable solely to Adam and Eve ..again language is a matter of grunts or chemical scents used by all species not just Humans

T:

nope re-read it was for the purpose of distinguishing each animal not so they would come like a dog if called. if scientist discovers a new creature does he not name it? but he doesn't keep it as a pet and say "here dinosinious albeta" come here boy, or fetch. it was not for the animals understanding just so they would have names. as to grunts or chemical language you may be right but here they were speaking whatever language god spoke and gave them to speak, if its grunts and growns so be it - somehow they communicated , no other animal outside of the so called serpent spoke so it does not mean that all animals spoke, in the same grunts and groans. the serpent as far as i can tell is a monicker for satan.

T:

QUOTE:

then they are given charge by an athority to obey the charge not to eat of the fruit

F:
you can train animals to do the same ..and sometimes they may violate those orders and not understand that they just did something wrong

T:

but it states they did know exactly what god said - eve repeated it back to the serpent so that also shows they understood exactly what they were not to do. and they were aware of the consiquences of their actions. that's why they hid afterwaords.


T:
[even though god knew they would] and are able to reason that eating the fruit is a good thing to do even though they were told not to. hmmm?


well 'Tribo" if God knew "Eons" beforehand but decided to let the events take place anyway .. then you have to place the blame where it belongs ...it's all God's fault ..it's about time you let God take the responsibilty for what took place and stop blaming the simpletons he created for being simpletons


T:

never said it wasn't his fault that is my stance - has been all along. but what i'm addressing is your assumption that A&E were not above the other animals - your wrong.

"Tribo" the ants plant the leaves to grow the fungus and kept the land clear of weeds ..and they are only ants ..you said name an animal that "till the land" and I did so now you want to get into a debate what "till the land" means...come on


putting a simpleton in charge doesn't change the fact that he's still a simpleton


right if was for only Adam and Eve understanding ..the animals didn't understand their language just like Adam and Eve wasn't Mr. or Mrs. doctor dolittle and therefore didn't understand the language of the animals ..the animals could have even gave Adam and Eve names to identify them in the form of grunts and/or chemical signals ..so again language did not prove that Adam and Eve was more intelligent since all the animals had some form of communication between them


just because they knew exactly what God said doesn't mean they comprehended what God said until they ate the fruit ..


again it's God that's wrong..being above the other animals just means God put someone in Charge and not that Adam and Eve was any smarter than the other animals ..God already knew they would screw up before he create them

funch:

"Tribo" the ants plant the leaves to grow the fungus and kept the land clear of weeds ..and they are only ants ..you said name an animal that "till the land" and I did so now you want to get into a debate what "till the land" means...come on


TRIBO:

nope your wrong, the ants dont "plant" anything - they gather the leaves or what ever, the fungus occurs whether they gather the leaves or not. they are not "digging holes" and putting the leaves,etc., underground in hopes of new leaves growing, it a intuitive way thats for the ant only - just as bee's have thier intuitive way etc.. your trying to give cognizance to animals they dont have - if they did they actually would grow their own food. - they don't!!



Main Entry: cog·ni·zance
Pronunciation: \ˈkäg-nə-zən(t)s\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English conisaunce, from Anglo-French conissance, from conoistre to know, from Latin cognoscere
Date: 14th century
2 a: knowledge, awareness <had no cognizance of the situation> b: notice, acknowledgment <take cognizance of their achievement>

funch:


putting a simpleton in charge doesn't change the fact that he's still a simpleton

tribo:

so then your saying if you named all the animals and tilled the land and actually rew things and took care of them that you would be a simpleton also? ok.


T:

nope re-read it was for the purpose of distinguishing each animal not so they would come like a dog if called. if scientist discovers a new creature does he not name it? but he doesn't keep it as a pet and say "here dinosinious albeta" come here boy, or fetch. it was not for the animals understanding just so they would have names. as to grunts or chemical language you may be right but here they were speaking whatever language god spoke and gave them to speak, if its grunts and growns so be it - somehow they communicated , no other animal outside of the so called serpent spoke so it does not mean that all animals spoke, in the same grunts and groans. the serpent as far as i can tell is a monicker for satan.


right if was for only Adam and Eve understanding ..the animals didn't understand their language just like Adam and Eve wasn't Mr. or Mrs. doctor dolittle and therefore didn't understand the language of the animals ..the animals could have even gave Adam and Eve names to identify them in the form of grunts and/or chemical signals ..so again language did not prove that Adam and Eve was more intelligent since all the animals had some form of communication between them


TRIBO

the "type" of communication is the key here funch not the means, since it was written that they spoke these things and said what they did in whatever language was used and able to be written of later by moses or who ever, and the fact that the type of communication the animals of each species has is of instinct - not reason or cognizance or rational, puts it on a higher level. If the animals were on the same level as man then why didn't god give them the same agenda? dont eat the fruit? he didn't. if man was not higher why bother with any command not to do? the animals didn't need commands or anything past what was given them - instinctual ability.

tribo

but it states they did know exactly what god said - eve repeated it back to the serpent so that also shows they understood exactly what they were not to do. and they were aware of the consiquences of their actions. that's why they hid afterwaords.

funch:


just because they knew exactly what God said doesn't mean they comprehended what God said until they ate the fruit ..

tribo:

then why did eve hesitate to take the fruit? why did the serpent/satan have to persuade her?


T:

never said it wasn't his fault that is my stance - has been all along. but what i'm addressing is your assumption that A&E were not above the other animals - your wrong.


again it's God that's wrong..being above the other animals just means God put someone in Charge and not that Adam and Eve was any smarter than the other animals ..God already knew they would screw up before he create them


tribo:

so are you saying that if i put you in charge of something that does not mean that i believe you have the mind and capacity to do that which i ask? if that's the case then why not just pick an animal any animal and put it in charge of the rest? Why create a thing no smarter than that which you already created, what's the point? as to screw ups - free will - she/he could have said - NO

MS:

Tribo....when you speak,for instance, your physical mouth and vocal cords are moving... your brain is also doing its function.... and your thoughts are forming the words...

if you speak with feelings, your emotions come into play also(emotions and will are of the soulish area).

And the fact that you are able to speak at all, is because God breathed life into your spirit....

so all three parts of your being(physical body, soul, spirit) are working together as ONE... ONE Tribo...not three.......but EACH part of you , still having it's own particular Function

tribo reply:



Correct all three had/have their own particular functions, so as i asked in the OP - if lets say now all 3 were in the garden walking - why did god have to fill the others in or make them aware of what was going on and what was intended to be done about it? "22 And God said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil," were they not already aware of it?

" Why hast thou done this? Again did he/they not know this already?

"And the Lord God called Adam and said to him, Adam, where art thou? Again, whats up?

" And the Lord God said to the woman, Why hast thou done this?

Why would an all knowing god have any questions about all that has taken place? you say its because he wanted to hear it from adam? if so it makes god look foolish. eljay states it's for the benifit of the reader, but i cant accept that because it could have been easily stated differently than it is without haveing to make it appear as god had questions as to what had taken place. Like: "well since you have knowledge of your nakedness you have eaten of the tree and for this blah.blah,blah."

This is also true of gods other questions unless you think that later mankind was so ignorant that he could not deduce gods actions unless written that way? is this what you believe?

"Tribo" the ants use the leaves to grow only one type of fungus that keep the entire colony alive ..which mean they must take great care ..they remove all debris and weeds from the surrounding area to make sure that the fungus grow and kept pure ..in other words "the ants till the land" ..maybe you should read up on the ants biology instead of believing everything in the bible-ology

it may educate you that Man is not the only creature on the earth that "tills the land" to grow food ..which is an indication that before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge they were capable of doing nothing more that your average leaf cutter ant did

the word used is ""cultivate"" >>5 and every herb of the field before it was on the earth, and all the grass of the field before it sprang up, for God had not rained on the earth, and there was not a man to >>>cultivate<<< itn not "TILL"



Main Entry: cul·ti·vate
Pronunciation: \ˈkəl-tə-ˌvāt\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cul·ti·vat·ed; cul·ti·vat·ing
Etymology: Medieval Latin cultivatus, past participle of cultivare, from cultivus cultivable, from Latin cultus, past participle of colere
Date: circa 1655
1: to prepare or prepare and use for the raising of crops; also : to loosen or break up the soil about (growing plants)


now if your telling me that the ants you speak of are doing the above - your incorrect - they donot prepare the soil or plant tree seeds to raise leaves to later harvest them for food or to grow fungus. they are "GATHERING" the wild leaves that have grown on their own and bringing them to there places to USE they donot - grow- the plants themselves, they have no cognizance to do so - it is merely ""instinctual behavior"" programmed into each and evry species of animal on earth. The "SKILLS" you talk of are instinctual not from or by having some form of cognizance, if what you say is true then show me an animal that >cultivates its food< by the above definiton? not >>gathers<< already exsisting food ready to eat or use? I have yet to see or read of an animal that "PLANTS" and grows it's own food - all animals are hunter/gatherer's not farmers or cultivators.

oh oh..everytime 'Tribo" start demanding someone follow some definition that he "google cut and paste" from the dictionary means he is ready to stop the debate because he got into hot water ..so to make sure that don't happen I will follow your definition ..so here is your definition of culivate and I will explain exactly how some ants follow this procedure



ok 'Tribo"...first the ants perpare the soil by removing all debris while at the same time loosing up the soil to remove other waste products from it ..they first clear the land which is the first thing a human farmer does

next the ants cut leaves from the trees to use as "seed" and plant the leaves in the ground ..and the human farmers have to buy seed or gather it from trees just like the ants do

the decaying of the leaves produce heat and moisture to grow a special fungus which is the only food source the ant use to feed the entire colony just like farmers do when some of them just grow one particular food crop ..but if it doesn't rain the farmer crops will fail but the ants do not have to worry about rain

which means 'Tribo"... some ant species "culivate" the land just like human farmers

also 'Tribo" if you wish to use the argument that ants don't make their own leaves ..well in that case Adam and Eve or human farmers don't make their own seeds ..wouldn't you say that God make the seeds

so "Tribo" that is why when it comes to cultivating the land Adam and Eve was doing no more than an ant

funch:

next the ants cut leaves from the trees to use as "seed" and plant the leaves in the ground ..and the human farmers have to buy seed or gather it from trees just like the ants do


TRIBO:

no the leaf cutter and other species of ants don't >>PLANT<< anything, they chew it up and the fungus grows on it.

Sections of leaves are cut from vegetation around the nest by specialised workers.
The leaf sections are carried away along trails.
The leaf sections are taken back into the ant nest, where they are given to another group of specialised workers that process the leaves.

>>>>The processing workers reduce the leaf fragments to a >>mulch<< >>>>which is used to feed the ant colony<<<<

The fungus feeds on the mulch and uses the nutrients to grow. It also produces special structures called gongylidia which are fed on by the ants.
The queen sits among the fungus garden laying her eggs. When the eggs hatch, the larvae that emerge will eat the gongylidia while they are being cared for by specialised nurse workers.
When the nutrients have been removed from the leaf material, the waste is transported to special dump chambers, where dead ants and dead fungus are also placed.

TRIBO:

the fungus occurs naturally, there not """planting""" leaves. what they are doing is "collecting" leaves to turn into "mulch" no planting is needed or required.

what i'm getting at funches is they do not have the cognizance of humans any human - the have natural instinct to act or perform as they do - they don't hold "ant classes" to teach every ant whats it needs to do. nor do bee's or any other hive mentality insect. now if you want to believe that A&E were no smarter than insects - be my guest, but like i said earlier if your right then why would god have even bothered with making man? what was the purpose if he was to be no more intelligent than an ant or other animal? why waste the time or energy? remember - these are supposedly your past ancestors - and you are comparing man against man here - are you as you say as dumb as a jackass or other animal or ant?

"Tribo" you said give you an animal that cultivate or till the land and I did so the discussion is not about the ants any longer it's about the cognizance of Adam and Eve before they ate from the Tree of Knowledge ...

so since as you say no one held classes to teach ants how to cultivate ...then explain who taught Adam and Eve how to cultivate ...did God hold cultivation classes for them or did God just popped the knowledge into Adam and Eve's heads just like he did for the ants

"Tribo" it's no guess work involved because no matter how you look at it God had to pop the knowedlege in to Adams and Eve head because no one else was around to teach them how to cultivate the land

and since you can't find otherwise in the bible means that Adam and Eve before eating from the Tree of Knowledge was no smarter than any of the other animals in the garden of Eden which means that God punished man because he himself created them as simpletons with not enough sense to comprehend right or wrong..