Again deb, read revalations chapter one, verse 11:

The alpha and omega [god] says:

"What thou seest, write in "a" book and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia."

This shows that even god and the writer understood it to be "A" >complete< BOOK - unto itself, it nowhere states it is to be "added" to other books/epistles/writings to be formed into an all encompassing text of gods working from beginning to end as any early or current bible is now concidered..

pray about it, ask for forgiveness, tell any you've taught this, that you were wrong, and move on.

I'm not sure, but I think this idea came from Zacheria Sitchin.

The fact that it is a plural form of word, have apologists claiming that it stands for the trinity. (Father, son, holy spirit) but that just rings untrue to me.

Of course there are those who will always disagree with each other.

"Based on independent scholar Zacheria Sitchin, the plural word "Elohim" means "those who came from the sky" and has the same meaning as the word "Annunaki" from the Sumerian tablets which are older than the Old Testament. The word "Elohim" was later translated into the word "God", once translated into this singular word, making Judaism the world's first monotheist religion, the belief in one god. All of the major Western religions (Christianity and Muslim) found their roots in Judaism based on this "false" translation, as per Sitchin."

Others claim that El means God and that Elohim simply means sons of god. That makes sense to me and rings true, and is also plural.

I'll look into that JB, thnx

Where does it say in the text that the Son (who is God by the way) cannot touch anyone. It only references the Father. Whom no one has seen.

eljay:


Where does it say in the text that the Son (who is God by the way) cannot touch anyone. It only references the Father. Whom no one has seen


tribo:

like i said Larry, i was asking you about this in proof also. i cannot find one instance, as you say also, that god "touched anyone" i don't think it does say that it's so anywhere, but in >>not saying<< that it does, says a lot.

Meaning since there is no account of it, i take it that is proof enough of it being the case. the same i feel holds true with any epiphanies of the son [pre-incarnate - Jesus] Why? - to me it also holds that any part of a >non-incarnate< god would be under the same nature/edicts/rules/ within the god head. Even the spirit is to be seen as >>upon<< the old testament people not "IN" or touching them, that did not take place till pentacost after those follower's/believers had accepted christ as "LORD" and therefore being covered by christ righteousness and perfectness were allowed to recieve and be touched by gods spirit? correct? So why would a pre-incarnate son be allowed to do differently? It goes against "Gods" [father/son/spirits very nature.
if he did then it is against all that i know to be stated of the others - father/spirit.

So again if you can show that my assumption is wrong please do - i am not like deb i will ackknowlde my faulty assumptions and thank you for showing me differently as to my take on this -

well JB, it seems there is some truth to waht you say about people from the sky - but still as it relates to hebrew writing with the added vowels of there original making it stands that yahovah elohiym still stands as i stated.





well JB, it seems there is some truth to waht you say about people from the sky - but still as it relates to hebrew writing with the added vowels of there original making it stands that yahovah elohiym still stands as i stated.


Meaning, origin and etymology of the name Elohim


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Elohim
Elohim is one of three Divine Names by which the Creator is known as He creates. The creation account is probably the most difficult and most enigmatic passages in Scriptures. It starts at the beginning and it doesn't really end.

There are three stages upon which the creation unfolds. The first stage stretches from Gen 1:1 to 2:4. During this time God is known as Elohim. From Gen 2:4 He is known as YHWH Elohim. The third stage starts around the Noah cycle and flows over into the Abraham cycle and beyond. Abraham, after all, was the first to believe and became not only a new creation but also the first of a new continuum of new creations. During this stage God is known as Dabar YHWH, or Word Of God.
For more on this read our article on the Chaotic Set Theory

'Elohim' is a plural word, which is peculiar because God is one (Deut 6:4). The etymology is generally deemed uncertain but most likely it comes from ('lh 93), and perhaps from , the plural of , el, the common Canaanite word for god.



As told by Joel M. Hoffman Ph.D. in his delightful and riveting book In the Beginning: A Short History of the Hebrew Language - read our review - the Hebrews were the first to incorporate vowels in their written text, and by doing this the previously esoteric art of writing and reading became available to the masses. The seemingly casual command to 'write' something on doors or foreheads included the invention of a writing system that could be learned by everybody. A very big deal, and resulting in the most powerful tool of data preservation up to this common age. Hebrew theology is by far the most influential ever, and this is in part due to the Hebrew invention of vowel notation. This power (this theology) contrasted others by use of the vowel notation, using symbols that were already used and until then only represented consonants: the letters (waw), (yod) and (heh), and to give an example: the word is either the word dod, meaning beloved (and the is a vowel), or it is the word dud, meaning jar (and the is again a vowel), or it is the word dawid, which is the name David (and the is a consonant).

These letters became markers for both the Hebrew identity and the Hebrew religion, including the various names for God. One of these names is the famous Tetragrammaton - YHWH - which actually exists only of vowels, and is utterly exceptional in many ways, including the fact that it can not be pronounced.
The word (El) was the name of the prominent Canaanite god, whose name was either derived of or became the common word for god in general. The plural of this word is ; gods. With the addition of the letter , creating the word , the Hebrews not only stated essential monotheism (by naming a single God after the plural word "gods") but also marked their God as theirs: Elohim is the singular pantheon of the vowel-people.
Something similar occured when the name of patriarch Abram () was expanded with the heh into (Abraham), and the name of matriarch Sarai () was expanded with the heh to Sarah ().

Which leaves us to a discussion of the actual meaning of :

In TWOTOT , Professor of OT at Covenant T. Sem, R. Laird Harris Ph.D. states, "Most frequently mentioned suggestions for an original meaning are "power" or "fear" but these are widely challenged and much disputed. It may be noted that even if the origin of the word in Canaanite or proto-Semitic is from a root meaning power, this by no means indicates the connotation in Hebrew religious usage. Our word "deity" comes from a root in Sanskrit to mean "sky" but we do not worship a sky-god."

The Abarim Publications Editorial Team feels compelled to reluctantly oppose professor Harris' point of view and subsequent logic. If we do not worship a sky-god, why is in our culture the sky still so strongly associated with heaven? And if the word El originates in a root that means power, the explicit loss of this meaning must be proven (and if proof fails the meaning stands). That the Judaic tradition supports the idea that the most rudimentary experience of God has to do with power is argumentated by Luke 1:49, "For the Mighty One has done great things for me," and Matt 26:64, "...you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right of Power..."

The particle occurs often in names, and in our attempts to translate, we should also take the following words in account:
('al 90), particle of negation; not, no, neither.
('el 91) preposition that expresses motion towards someone or something; unto, into, besides, in reference to.
('elleh 92), these.
('ala 94), to swear; derivative means oath.
('ala 95) to wail (Jon 1:8).
Then there are ('alla 100a), oak, from the assumed and unused root , and ('ela 45h), terebinth, from the root .

It is impossible to combine all these words and seek for a fundamental meaning without beaching on the banks of triviality, but it must be noted that the general form of is much more common in Hebrew than our word "god" is in Germanic. It seems to be charged with a firmness and fixedness (oak, terebinth, God, these, oath) but also with the notion of seperatedness and disparateness (no/ not, God), as well as a rudimentary sense of transfinity (unto, into, God).
However the Hebrews saw God, the name Elohim was far more rich in definate meaning than our abstract word "god."

Though certainly much debated, this Name (still most probably) has to do with the first God-experience that people had; awe or fear for the powers of nature. This word is used for God Himself, but also so-called gods, the wooden or stone images people worshiped. Elohim is even used to (probably) mean 'angels' and even 'judges'.


Bottom line: the Name Elohim has something to do with powers: The Powers That Be; The Many Powered. To indicate the >>Living God<< of the hebrew, this word can be accompanied by YHWH or any description like Elyon, or Shaddai.



note: >><< mine.
• • •

In trying to check out Mr. Sitchin' academic background, i came across this if your interested:

An introduction to Zecharia Sitchin's flawed scholarship and why I feel it is .... I feel it my responsibility as someone who has earned credentials in the ...

www.sitchiniswrong.com/sitchinerrors.htm

I don't doubt that your conclusion is not well reaoned out. I do draw you attention to Gen 32:22-30 (It's too much for me to type - so I'll paraphrase) Here Jacob encounters "a man" and wrestles with him. It goes on for a while, and the man realizing he cannot overpower Jacob (why is not clear - unless he was simply trying to prove a point) touches him in the hip socket and in doing so "disarms" him as it were. Jacob recognises him as God, and will not let him go unti the man blesses him. God changes his name to Isreal.

Verse 28 states : Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Isreal, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

Later in verse 30, Jacob reiterates this by saying "...I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Can't see how they could have wrestled without touching - and since no man has seen God, and the man claimed to be God - supported by Jacob, wouldn't this have to have been God the Son? Naturally - this is not specified in the text - it is just putting two and two together and getting four. Like I said - I don't know of another passage that would give new meaning to "No man has seen God but the one who came from God."

I don't know of any other passage where God touches man though, and I haven't looked into any commentaries to see if anyone else thinks the way I do on this matter.

ELJAY:


I don't doubt that your conclusion is not well reaoned out. I do draw you attention to Gen 32:22-30 (It's too much for me to type - so I'll paraphrase) Here Jacob encounters "a man" and wrestles with him. It goes on for a while, and the man realizing he cannot overpower Jacob (why is not clear - unless he was simply trying to prove a point) touches him in the hip socket and in doing so "disarms" him as it were. Jacob recognises him as God, and will not let him go unti the man blesses him. God changes his name to Isreal.

Verse 28 states : Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Isreal, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

Later in verse 30, Jacob reiterates this by saying "...I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Can't see how they could have wrestled without touching - and since no man has seen God, and the man claimed to be God - supported by Jacob, wouldn't this have to have been God the Son? Naturally - this is not specified in the text - it is just putting two and two together and getting four. Like I said - I don't know of another passage that would give new meaning to "No man has seen God but the one who came from God."

I don't know of any other passage where God touches man though, and I haven't looked into any commentaries to see if anyone else thinks the way I do on this matter.


Tribo:

yes i'm well aware of jacob and the angel and also the angel in job, lot, also . but thats just it, as i said every time that ive read whats suposed to be an account of an epiphany of christ, its not very clear. Even in jacobs case it is still not clear to me - "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Isreal, because you have struggled with God" to me is not tha man/angel saying "he" is god, but simply saying that jacob had struggled with god and yes he had for some time.ill finish up on this tomorrow bed time its almost 3 am night.

.......... REVELATION...............

........CHAPTER 22.........

1 And he shewed me a pure river of a water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the cleaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
Amen.


THE END

```````````````````````

The Book in Revelations 22 , is referring to :

THE WHOLE WORD OF GOD...........

GIVEN TO MAN TO WRITE DOWN.......

UNDER THE DIVINE INSPIRATION OF THE

HOLY SPIRIT !!!

The WHOLE BIBLE ......NOT JUST PARTS OF THE BIBLE....BUT THE WHOLE WHOLE WHOLE WORD OF GOD ...IS THE BOOK!!!!

Although there may be different translations, THE WORD OF GOD( the BOOK or the BIBLE), REMAINS UNALTERED !!!


AND IF PERCHANCE, THERE IS AN ALTERED VERSION OUT THERE,THAT DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE BOOK OF THE WORD OF GOD( THE BIBLE )....THEN IT IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD!!

Thanks Tribo! I have always doubted most of Sitchin's claims about planet X.

Mr. Sitchin insists that "Elohim" in Genesis 1:26-27 is plural, thereby "requiring" us to interpret that passage as supporting his idea that extraterrestrial "gods" (The Annunaki) created humankind.

But there are other passages in the Bible that suggest there were more than one entity or god working on the creation, as the verse, "Let us make man in our image.." and others that indicated that Adam and Even would have to be expelled from the garden because they now have the knowledge of good and evil "like us."

The question begs to be answered.. Who is "us?" and why would a single god refer to himself in plural? I just don't buy the idea that he is talking about the father, son and holy spirit. Those to me are like the body, mind and soul. We all have a body, mind and soul but we don't refer to ourselves as "us."

JB

so did God command all the animals in the garden of eden not to eat off the tree or did he just commanded Adam and Eve not to ..because clearly there were animals that may like to eat apples even insects that may have fancied apples

so if no other animals had the sense not to eat the apple was that an indication that Adam and Eve had less sense then all the other animals and insects ...also just because Adam supposely named all the animals is no indication of intelligence because language is nothing more than specified grunts or chemical scents made or released by any species

The cockroaches ate of the tree of life. That's why even after mankind is extinct they will remain.

morningsong, as much as i know you have a good heart - your incorrect lets go over this "carefully please as to what it says in the verses about the "book"


.......... REVELATION...............

........CHAPTER 22.........




6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

TRIBO: "the prophecy of >this< "book" - Was the {this book} being reffered to the whole bible?
If you say yes - then explain to me how the whole bible got lost and did not again come into being till the time of Constantine please? I personally know of any Aramaic "whole bible" or any Greek bible that is a combination of old and new testaments before then - so please show me evidence of this.




8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

TRIBO: again, "the sayings of "THIS BOOK" [revelations] not the entire bible.




10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

TRIBO: "the prophecy of "THIS BOOK" [revelations]






16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

TRIBO: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches" - what churches? the seven he was WRITING THIS "BOOK" [revelations] TO.

THE KICKER:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the >>>prophecy<<<< >>>of ""this"" book<<< [REVELATIONS], If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are >>>written in ""this book""<<<< AGAIN [REVELATIONS]

as i said to deb, unless you can show me where the """entire bible""" exsisted in >>ad 90<< or before, then for "ANYONE" to think this stand alone BOOK as even the ANGEL calls it and jesus and the father also call it >>this book<< over and over, my dear MS, they almost didn't even let it get into the canon at one point it was a toss up between this and sometihng else i would have to look it up again. until it was added to the canon of what was to become " THE BIBLE" as we know of it today, it was a stand alone book!!! The seven churches it was sent to or written to did not receive it as being anything less than a "BOOK OF IT"S OWN" there is nothing saying ""please add this to the other gospels and letters to form the new testament when you recieve it, so that it makes sense to you" IT WAS AND IS A STAND ALONE WORK/BOOK by john or whoever.

Why is it, as a former christian i learned this in my first year of of being so, and you cannot see it? Are you so blinded by your futurist holdings that you can not discern properly anymore? hmmm? that's regrettable.

and as "god" the truth of the heart speak to us from the garden, the heart of man, the heart is afraid of it's own voice, and run and hide within the leaves of good actions we see of ourself, and no wanting to see all of what the voice from the garden the heart as god of all truth speak, for it is not until the evening time, the darkest moment, within one and within the final close of a cycle, that the voice of truth in the heart overtake the mind, and all truth as infinite as the stars in the sky are connected from within the perfect core of each being, completing the infinite circle of whole logic within each being, now all being seen without holding to one idea, of good, which thrusted in the second state any being in it's first nature, to seek a half state, to wish the opposite of anything that exists, as the logic of the mind does not compute how complete and incomplete can be of one state, but the logic of half states the lead to the valley of the shawdow of anything possible, is where all infinites are opened, no longer the count to ten the mind knows full well, but now 0 to 1 and back again, completing the loop of endless logic that knows now how to peer with focus of precision into infinite possibilities, and there is no fear, as it has guided till the end, the beginning, and knowning which of all is to be, as the grestest truth of forever peace their is weeping of joy, from within the universe, and all taste of the tree of infinite life, and it is good, and minds are opened to bliss never ending.......peace

to continue :


24 And Jacob was left alone; and a>>> man <<<wrestled with him till the morning. 25 And he saw that he prevailed not against him; and he touched the broad part of his thigh, and the broad part of Jacob's thigh was benumbed in his wrestling with him. 26 And he said to him, (((Let me go, for the day has dawned))); but he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said to him, >>What is thy name?<< and he answered, Jacob. 28 And he said to him, Thy name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name; for thou hast prevailed with God, and shalt be mighty with men. 29 And Jacob asked and said, Tell me thy name; and he said, Wherefore dost thou ask after my name? and he blessed him there >>[ a blessing can be many things even congradulations, it is not stating it was god blessing him only the angel/man]<<. 30 And Jacob called the name of that place, the Face of God; for, [said he,] I have seen God face to face, and my life was preserved. 31 And the sun rose upon him, when he passed the Face of God; and he halted upon his thigh. 32 Therefore the children of Israel will by no means eat of the sinew which was benumbed, which is on the broad part of the thigh, until this day, because >>>[the angel]<<< touched the broad part of the thigh of Jacob– [even] the sinew which was benumbed.

it first state's he is a man then nowhere else does it say he was more that an angel or man, question - why would jesus or god himself be concerned about the sun rising? and having to leave? And he said to him, (((Let me go, for the day has dawned)) ??? yes jacob does state he had seen god face to face - but it does not state that the angel/man was who he was talking of.

31 """And the sun rose upon him""", when he passed the Face of God; and he halted upon his thigh.

him - singular - exclusive of the angel/man bieng anylonger present.

so:

if it was the pre-incarnate jesus, why would he have to leave when day breaks?

why could god not defeat jacob? god is no stronger than man?

blessing is no sign of god, a man can bless congradulate someone correct?

why would the angel man not give his name?

jacob was not asked to remove shoes or made aware of this mans presence being holy as god would have done.

could anyone have really wrestled with god/jesus?

how could a sinless being wrestle with sinful man?

i dont buy it sorry.

my dear G, because we don't refer to ourselves as "us" is because of our language at present, many books of old state similar things in them, but i will have to look up such to prove it. I have to accept that when those verses are said they are referring to the triune god until or if i find differently, in other words i have to reply on what is written as to my understanding of the ancient text. i understand plurality as i have said earlier, and see no problem with talking in that conceptual way.

and besides you talk of your multiple personalities like Jackie don't you and you state you talk to yourself and answer yourself and argue with yourself right? HMMM??? are you sure your not the god of the book?

Two exceptions - the British monarch ("We are not amused.") and nurses ("How are we feeling today?")

SkyHook
Help stop Forum Trolls: http://larcho.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-larch-guide-on-how-to-spot-a-forum-troll/

thanks SKYHOOK, but in one of those instances the "WE" is referring to the two totally seperate persons - we the nurse ANd the patient - the monarch, hmm? yep i think you correct.im supposedly a troll here but that is a name given me by the christians - i'm really just looking for answers and keeping others from posting what i see as incorrectly stated info.

What makes you think it was an apple?