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| Topic: is god a liar? | |
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Well - it is difficult to honor your request without using scripture, for it also says clearly in the scripture that "the Holy spirit does not speak for himself" - which is what you are asking him to do. Therefore, if it something that the Spirit does not do - how could you demand that He show evidence of Himself by doing so? You are asking Him to contradict himself - which would be proof that He's NOT the Spirit to whom you seek answers from.
This is like gunning your car while it's up on Jacks. You can spin the wheels all you want - but you're not going any where. Where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit does not speak for himself? Is that not a contradiction to what Born again Christians have been saying here on this forum? Did they not proclaim that the Holy spirit speaks to them and they they alone know truth because of this? Now I am confused. Does the Bible contradict itself or is someone misinterpreting it? JB Jeannie; The reference is John 16: 13a "He will not speak on his own..." But to get a clear picture of the context of this verse I would suggest you read From John 14:1 until the end of chapter 15. That is - if your more interested in what is actually written than what everybody has been claiming it say. It has not been the Christians on the forum who have been claiming what the bible says about the Holy Spirit - but it's been Abra, Tribo, and others. As far as I know - the "born agains" claim the H.S. will lead one to the truth. That is what they SHOULD be saying, because that is what is stated in the text. Clearly Jeannie - there is so much misinterpretation of what the bible says, that I couldn't tell you who's read it and who hasn't. With a few exceptions - on both sides of the argument. However, I think I could say with accuracy that for most of those who say they've read it - it's been years since they've done so, and they only read those passages which support their Pretext. Isn't this obvious to you as well? sorry you think that of me eljay, but i forgive you - 
now to the point whether you read from 14-1 or not, chpts 14,15,16 state the same things said by Christ. 14-14: and if ye ask anything in my name i will do it 14:17-even the "spirit of truth" etc 15:7- ye shall ask what you want and it shall be done unto you 16:13-how be it when the spirit of truth come he will "guide you in all truth" etc and on. so it is not a matter of taking something out of context eljay - these are Christ words! Now, if you raise the audience relevance as to being the apostles, your correct -tell me then, was these things said for them only or for all that followed even today? if your response is only to them of that day and not now then i will discontinue with my quest. If not- and you say it's relevant for all today and forever, than my questions stand! If you answer that it was only for the disciples then i will go to paul's writings and find the verses there of the holy spirit and truth, makes no diff. to me. I would like an answer eljay? if not from you then the others who claim that they speak to god and his spirit. simple questions i ask in my original post. but i would like it from god, not you but the holy spirit.
You know what my response to this will be. It is for everyone. We know this by the prayer of Jesus to God about the believers. Those there present to hear what he said, and those of the future who would not have the benefit of the eye witness of His ministry to substantiate their faith. To clarify the point of "intended audience" - who in this day and age has the level of faith equal to those of the apostles? I continue my point that you are not going to hear from the H.S. on your quest - because you are petitioning Him to testify about himself. His purpose is to testify about Jesus, and to convict the world of sin. His goal is to >lead< them into all truth - and what truth is that? The words that Jesus spoke. Not "which came first, the chicken or the egg". So - since you've established an event that can not possibly occur - the H.S. knocking on your door and calling you by the nickname your father called you - what would you like us to do now? Well for one, we can remedy what your saying by changing my request to - jesus himself or god giving that which i asked for, thus eliminating the HS speaking of himself in any way ok? and will use verses such as ask anything in my name and i will give it unto you, for a start - since you are his then you can petition him in that way ok? i'm not as patient as your god eljay but i can wait awhile till you or the others get the answers or answer - let's see it's monday, god created the entireity of what exsist in 6 days - how long do you think it will take him to answer you? A day or two? what ever you thinks best my friend, just don't forget ok? sincerely __________ oh thats right he already knows don't he, thnks larry -
your faithful troll - tribo Okay Sam. Now let me get this strait - what you want to know is why Christians major on the minors in light of being led to the truth by the Holy Spirit, am I right on this. (Too many years of the wacky to count on a short term memory) I will ponder on this while I await your clarification. HMMM?? well eljay it did start out with that but from the answers i have recieved i suspect if i bring it up again all i will hear is repeats of it being mans fault not god's that everyone does not have the same consistant truth thorughout christendom, so i will have to stick with "god" giving you my dad's nickname he had for me when he was alive ok? One thing i've pondering though is this - when those who write on the post write about "talking" with god/jeasus/holyspirit, exactly what is meant? are they actually hearing his voice as his voice or does it sound like their voice? Or - do you/they mean that your having telepathy with god and his voice is quite distinct from your/there own? if so how does gods voice sound as to yours? similiar, exactly, unlike it at all? give me something to go on here please. but back to the main theme of the post - yes i would like you or others to do as i stated and i now state again. >>> ask your god/Jesus to please give to you the nickname my father once called me when he was still alive and to then give to me, so i can know that the answer comes from him and not from someone else.<<< thnx eljay,others |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Tue 08/26/08 12:42 PM
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I never heard God talk!! how can he LIE??? HMM?? you claim to be god - you never heard yourself talk?? so your just a typing god then huh? so to pray to you one has to type the prayer is that it? well here goes god Psycho:: ##%$^&*(^%$#!@##$%&*((_++{}":>?>":":{{|)_(*&*&^$!##%%^&*()_+ - >> (_0_) << DID YOU GET THAT? THNX IN ADVANCE. |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Tue 08/26/08 12:47 PM
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Tribo you were not on and the conversation tends to drift in whatever direction people take it in. Hope thats not a problem. 
YOUR -> <- IS POINTLESS BABY, I WAS ONLY SAYING NO ONE HAD ANSWERED MY QUESTION. AND GOOD NIGHT - NO MORE NO LESS
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Tue 08/26/08 12:50 PM
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It did get WAY off topic last night with all that L. Ron Hubbard stuff, and the church of scientology I admit.
 I think I thought he was a christian just because as a kid growing up I heard the word "church" associated with his name but I never looked at any of his books or had an interest in it.
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The holy spirit is the same spirit that talks through those Ouija boards. They always lie. They never tell people the same things. JB
AND JUST HOW WILL I KNOW IT? do you also claim to hear the voice of god? then you can ask him for the answer to my questions then, get back soon please. |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Tue 08/26/08 01:27 PM
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It did get WAY off topic last night with all that L. Ron Hubbard stuff, and the church of scientology I admit. I think I thought he was a christian just because as a kid growing up I heard the word "church" associated with his name but I never looked at any of his books or had an interest in it.
church is simply a term for a body of believers/followers - to many people associate the word >church< with the building that they meet in. -
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Edited by
SharpShooter10
on
Tue 08/26/08 01:16 PM
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I don’t want to sound judgmental because I know NOTHING about scientology. I have never even investigated it casually but it sounds "cultish". Would it be classified as cult? I’m referring to a general definition of cult. Cult, ritual observances involved in worship of, or communication with, the supernatural or its symbolic representations. A cult includes the totality of ideas, activities, and practices associated with a given divinity or social group. It includes not only ritual activities but also the beliefs and myths centering on the rites. The objects of the cult are often things associated with the daily life of the celebrants. |
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It did get WAY off topic last night with all that L. Ron Hubbard stuff, and the church of scientology I admit. I think I thought he was a christian just because as a kid growing up I heard the word "church" associated with his name but I never looked at any of his books or had an interest in it.
church is simply a term for a body of believers/followers - to mant people associate the word >church< with the building that they meet in. -
 agreed, I'm trying hard today
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goddess worship 30,000 yrs ago - venus off willindorf - buy some peanuts and bone up monkey
 Im sorry Tribo. I don't fall for comic book mythology
Yet you quote L.ron hubbard??? -
L. Ron Hubbard was a Christian I do believe.
He was pretty much every religion EXCEPT Christian. Kinda like a lot of other people I know.
I thought he was a Christian scientologist. You know they are not actually scientists but enjoy taking liberties with the title. That Tom Cruise was ranting again the other day. That man needs to get some sleep. 
Tom Cruise needs a lobotomy - not sleep. Thought so myself
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It did get WAY off topic last night with all that L. Ron Hubbard stuff, and the church of scientology I admit. I think I thought he was a christian just because as a kid growing up I heard the word "church" associated with his name but I never looked at any of his books or had an interest in it.
Actually the discussion did relate to the thread topic in a round about kinda way.It was a discussion about a particular religion and the lies of its founder. So in a way it does kinda relate except we were discussing the fallacies a New Age religion instead of just bashing Christians. I find Christian bashing is soooo boring and its been done to death.
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It did get WAY off topic last night with all that L. Ron Hubbard stuff, and the church of scientology I admit. I think I thought he was a christian just because as a kid growing up I heard the word "church" associated with his name but I never looked at any of his books or had an interest in it.
Actually the discussion did relate to the thread topic in a round about kinda way.It was a discussion about a particular religion and the lies of its founder. So in a way it does kinda relate except we were discussing the fallacies a New Age religion instead of just bashing Christians. I find Christian bashing is soooo boring and its been done to death.
mirror/monkey - why i'm not bashing anyone, i'm asking what i feel is a legitmate question(s) you may not agree - but please baby monkey -i'm not bashing, i'm trying to understand. |
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The holy spirit is the same spirit that talks through those Ouija boards. They always lie. They never tell people the same things. JB
AND JUST HOW WILL I KNOW IT? do you also claim to hear the voice of god? then you can ask him for the answer to my questions then, get back soon please. Never claimed to hear the voice of GOD either  <-- I do that when I hear someone say they do
since I don't talk, (I pray) to GOD like that I don't guess I will find out your nickname unless you tell us. and so.... whats happening folks, I see a lot of familiar faces    
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If God Spoke no one would even care! oh just say WOW the wind is talkin to ME!!!
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Tue 08/26/08 01:59 PM
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I would be concerned if I heard voices simply because that is associated with schizophrenia. This would be my first worry anyway. A person diagnosed with schizophrenia may demonstrate disorganized and unusual thinking and speech, auditory hallucinations, and delusions.
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wat are they are they on super retilin?
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If God Spoke no one would even care! oh just say WOW the wind is talkin to ME!!! I would say you would know.......whether someone listens....well thats another story. |
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I don’t want to sound judgmental because I know NOTHING about scientology. I have never even investigated it casually but it sounds "cultish". Would it be classified as cult? I’m referring to a general definition of cult. Cult, ritual observances involved in worship of, or communication with, the supernatural or its symbolic representations. A cult includes the totality of ideas, activities, and practices associated with a given divinity or social group. It includes not only ritual activities but also the beliefs and myths centering on the rites. The objects of the cult are often things associated with the daily life of the celebrants. It is a major controlling Cult. It satisfies all 10 of Liftons requirements for mind control. |
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Well - it is difficult to honor your request without using scripture, for it also says clearly in the scripture that "the Holy spirit does not speak for himself" - which is what you are asking him to do. Therefore, if it something that the Spirit does not do - how could you demand that He show evidence of Himself by doing so? You are asking Him to contradict himself - which would be proof that He's NOT the Spirit to whom you seek answers from.
This is like gunning your car while it's up on Jacks. You can spin the wheels all you want - but you're not going any where. Where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit does not speak for himself? Is that not a contradiction to what Born again Christians have been saying here on this forum? Did they not proclaim that the Holy spirit speaks to them and they they alone know truth because of this? Now I am confused. Does the Bible contradict itself or is someone misinterpreting it? JB Jeannie; The reference is John 16: 13a "He will not speak on his own..." But to get a clear picture of the context of this verse I would suggest you read From John 14:1 until the end of chapter 15. That is - if your more interested in what is actually written than what everybody has been claiming it say. It has not been the Christians on the forum who have been claiming what the bible says about the Holy Spirit - but it's been Abra, Tribo, and others. As far as I know - the "born agains" claim the H.S. will lead one to the truth. That is what they SHOULD be saying, because that is what is stated in the text. Clearly Jeannie - there is so much misinterpretation of what the bible says, that I couldn't tell you who's read it and who hasn't. With a few exceptions - on both sides of the argument. However, I think I could say with accuracy that for most of those who say they've read it - it's been years since they've done so, and they only read those passages which support their Pretext. Isn't this obvious to you as well? sorry you think that of me eljay, but i forgive you -
now to the point whether you read from 14-1 or not, chpts 14,15,16 state the same things said by Christ. 14-14: and if ye ask anything in my name i will do it 14:17-even the "spirit of truth" etc 15:7- ye shall ask what you want and it shall be done unto you 16:13-how be it when the spirit of truth come he will "guide you in all truth" etc and on. so it is not a matter of taking something out of context eljay - these are Christ words! Now, if you raise the audience relevance as to being the apostles, your correct -tell me then, was these things said for them only or for all that followed even today? if your response is only to them of that day and not now then i will discontinue with my quest. If not- and you say it's relevant for all today and forever, than my questions stand! If you answer that it was only for the disciples then i will go to paul's writings and find the verses there of the holy spirit and truth, makes no diff. to me. I would like an answer eljay? if not from you then the others who claim that they speak to god and his spirit. simple questions i ask in my original post. but i would like it from god, not you but the holy spirit.
You know what my response to this will be. It is for everyone. We know this by the prayer of Jesus to God about the believers. Those there present to hear what he said, and those of the future who would not have the benefit of the eye witness of His ministry to substantiate their faith. To clarify the point of "intended audience" - who in this day and age has the level of faith equal to those of the apostles? I continue my point that you are not going to hear from the H.S. on your quest - because you are petitioning Him to testify about himself. His purpose is to testify about Jesus, and to convict the world of sin. His goal is to >lead< them into all truth - and what truth is that? The words that Jesus spoke. Not "which came first, the chicken or the egg". So - since you've established an event that can not possibly occur - the H.S. knocking on your door and calling you by the nickname your father called you - what would you like us to do now? Well for one, we can remedy what your saying by changing my request to - jesus himself or god giving that which i asked for, thus eliminating the HS speaking of himself in any way ok? and will use verses such as ask anything in my name and i will give it unto you, for a start - since you are his then you can petition him in that way ok? i'm not as patient as your god eljay but i can wait awhile till you or the others get the answers or answer - let's see it's monday, god created the entireity of what exsist in 6 days - how long do you think it will take him to answer you? A day or two? what ever you thinks best my friend, just don't forget ok? sincerely __________ oh thats right he already knows don't he, thnks larry -
your faithful troll - tribo Okay Sam. Now let me get this strait - what you want to know is why Christians major on the minors in light of being led to the truth by the Holy Spirit, am I right on this. (Too many years of the wacky to count on a short term memory) I will ponder on this while I await your clarification. HMMM?? well eljay it did start out with that but from the answers i have recieved i suspect if i bring it up again all i will hear is repeats of it being mans fault not god's that everyone does not have the same consistant truth thorughout christendom, so i will have to stick with "god" giving you my dad's nickname he had for me when he was alive ok? One thing i've pondering though is this - when those who write on the post write about "talking" with god/jeasus/holyspirit, exactly what is meant? are they actually hearing his voice as his voice or does it sound like their voice? Or - do you/they mean that your having telepathy with god and his voice is quite distinct from your/there own? if so how does gods voice sound as to yours? similiar, exactly, unlike it at all? give me something to go on here please. but back to the main theme of the post - yes i would like you or others to do as i stated and i now state again. >>> ask your god/Jesus to please give to you the nickname my father once called me when he was still alive and to then give to me, so i can know that the answer comes from him and not from someone else.<<< thnx eljay,others Well - I've heard of the term "still small voice" from time to time within Christendom - but I would not be the one to describe it for you, for I'd have to sy - I've never heard it. What happens with me - at those times when I feel there has been "communication" from God, is not communicated with words - but perception, and sometimes images. Whether or not this relates to me personally, as I tend to think and work with the realm of images - as opposed to words or numbers, is hard to say. But on more than one occasion, when faced with the absolute need of God to "come to my aid" and expose me to the images I need to solve an engeneering problem in the theater - it happens. I have no doubts that these solutions come from without - because I have no experience to draw reference to in these matters. Jeannie would refer to this phenom as "the power of attraction". I understand it to be response to prayer. It results in the same end. But there's no "voice". As to the "perception" part of God "speaking" to me, it sort of unfolds as a quick film in my head which highlights main points that lead to a definative conclusion. Sort of hard to describe, but it's obvious to me when I experience it. This sort of thing happens when I'm faced with dealing with people who's method of communication has a basis of deviousness to it. Working in the theater world - this is crucial. How do I know "this is from God" you're asking (my what keen ears I have), because it stands distinct from my thought process. It comes from "the gut" sort of speak - rather than the back of my head. And it proves to be the truth. There are numerous times that I have had this "communication" - doubted it - then suffered the consequence. After a few examples of this - one learns to "Listen". Or in my case - "Watch". I will ask Jesus to tell me your nickname - but his answer could possibly be "none of your buisiness". I'll let you know. |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Tue 08/26/08 03:43 PM
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Well - it is difficult to honor your request without using scripture, for it also says clearly in the scripture that "the Holy spirit does not speak for himself" - which is what you are asking him to do. Therefore, if it something that the Spirit does not do - how could you demand that He show evidence of Himself by doing so? You are asking Him to contradict himself - which would be proof that He's NOT the Spirit to whom you seek answers from.
This is like gunning your car while it's up on Jacks. You can spin the wheels all you want - but you're not going any where. Where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit does not speak for himself? Is that not a contradiction to what Born again Christians have been saying here on this forum? Did they not proclaim that the Holy spirit speaks to them and they they alone know truth because of this? Now I am confused. Does the Bible contradict itself or is someone misinterpreting it? JB Jeannie; The reference is John 16: 13a "He will not speak on his own..." But to get a clear picture of the context of this verse I would suggest you read From John 14:1 until the end of chapter 15. That is - if your more interested in what is actually written than what everybody has been claiming it say. It has not been the Christians on the forum who have been claiming what the bible says about the Holy Spirit - but it's been Abra, Tribo, and others. As far as I know - the "born agains" claim the H.S. will lead one to the truth. That is what they SHOULD be saying, because that is what is stated in the text. Clearly Jeannie - there is so much misinterpretation of what the bible says, that I couldn't tell you who's read it and who hasn't. With a few exceptions - on both sides of the argument. However, I think I could say with accuracy that for most of those who say they've read it - it's been years since they've done so, and they only read those passages which support their Pretext. Isn't this obvious to you as well? sorry you think that of me eljay, but i forgive you -
now to the point whether you read from 14-1 or not, chpts 14,15,16 state the same things said by Christ. 14-14: and if ye ask anything in my name i will do it 14:17-even the "spirit of truth" etc 15:7- ye shall ask what you want and it shall be done unto you 16:13-how be it when the spirit of truth come he will "guide you in all truth" etc and on. so it is not a matter of taking something out of context eljay - these are Christ words! Now, if you raise the audience relevance as to being the apostles, your correct -tell me then, was these things said for them only or for all that followed even today? if your response is only to them of that day and not now then i will discontinue with my quest. If not- and you say it's relevant for all today and forever, than my questions stand! If you answer that it was only for the disciples then i will go to paul's writings and find the verses there of the holy spirit and truth, makes no diff. to me. I would like an answer eljay? if not from you then the others who claim that they speak to god and his spirit. simple questions i ask in my original post. but i would like it from god, not you but the holy spirit.
You know what my response to this will be. It is for everyone. We know this by the prayer of Jesus to God about the believers. Those there present to hear what he said, and those of the future who would not have the benefit of the eye witness of His ministry to substantiate their faith. To clarify the point of "intended audience" - who in this day and age has the level of faith equal to those of the apostles? I continue my point that you are not going to hear from the H.S. on your quest - because you are petitioning Him to testify about himself. His purpose is to testify about Jesus, and to convict the world of sin. His goal is to >lead< them into all truth - and what truth is that? The words that Jesus spoke. Not "which came first, the chicken or the egg". So - since you've established an event that can not possibly occur - the H.S. knocking on your door and calling you by the nickname your father called you - what would you like us to do now? Well for one, we can remedy what your saying by changing my request to - jesus himself or god giving that which i asked for, thus eliminating the HS speaking of himself in any way ok? and will use verses such as ask anything in my name and i will give it unto you, for a start - since you are his then you can petition him in that way ok? i'm not as patient as your god eljay but i can wait awhile till you or the others get the answers or answer - let's see it's monday, god created the entireity of what exsist in 6 days - how long do you think it will take him to answer you? A day or two? what ever you thinks best my friend, just don't forget ok? sincerely __________ oh thats right he already knows don't he, thnks larry -
your faithful troll - tribo Okay Sam. Now let me get this strait - what you want to know is why Christians major on the minors in light of being led to the truth by the Holy Spirit, am I right on this. (Too many years of the wacky to count on a short term memory) I will ponder on this while I await your clarification. HMMM?? well eljay it did start out with that but from the answers i have recieved i suspect if i bring it up again all i will hear is repeats of it being mans fault not god's that everyone does not have the same consistant truth thorughout christendom, so i will have to stick with "god" giving you my dad's nickname he had for me when he was alive ok? One thing i've pondering though is this - when those who write on the post write about "talking" with god/jeasus/holyspirit, exactly what is meant? are they actually hearing his voice as his voice or does it sound like their voice? Or - do you/they mean that your having telepathy with god and his voice is quite distinct from your/there own? if so how does gods voice sound as to yours? similiar, exactly, unlike it at all? give me something to go on here please. but back to the main theme of the post - yes i would like you or others to do as i stated and i now state again. >>> ask your god/Jesus to please give to you the nickname my father once called me when he was still alive and to then give to me, so i can know that the answer comes from him and not from someone else.<<< thnx eljay,others Well - I've heard of the term "still small voice" from time to time within Christendom - but I would not be the one to describe it for you, for I'd have to sy - I've never heard it. What happens with me - at those times when I feel there has been "communication" from God, is not communicated with words - but perception, and sometimes images. Whether or not this relates to me personally, as I tend to think and work with the realm of images - as opposed to words or numbers, is hard to say. But on more than one occasion, when faced with the absolute need of God to "come to my aid" and expose me to the images I need to solve an engeneering problem in the theater - it happens. I have no doubts that these solutions come from without - because I have no experience to draw reference to in these matters. Jeannie would refer to this phenom as "the power of attraction". I understand it to be response to prayer. It results in the same end. But there's no "voice". As to the "perception" part of God "speaking" to me, it sort of unfolds as a quick film in my head which highlights main points that lead to a definative conclusion. Sort of hard to describe, but it's obvious to me when I experience it. This sort of thing happens when I'm faced with dealing with people who's method of communication has a basis of deviousness to it. Working in the theater world - this is crucial. How do I know "this is from God" you're asking (my what keen ears I have), because it stands distinct from my thought process. It comes from "the gut" sort of speak - rather than the back of my head. And it proves to be the truth. There are numerous times that I have had this "communication" - doubted it - then suffered the consequence. After a few examples of this - one learns to "Listen". Or in my case - "Watch". I will ask Jesus to tell me your nickname - but his answer could possibly be "none of your buisiness". I'll let you know. 
thnx eljay, great final answer, hopefully MS or someone else who says they talk to god like a friend will give me something more -
ps: it is my business - i already know it!! so i doubt that he would say that? |
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Tue 08/26/08 04:40 PM
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It did get WAY off topic last night with all that L. Ron Hubbard stuff, and the church of scientology I admit. I think I thought he was a christian just because as a kid growing up I heard the word "church" associated with his name but I never looked at any of his books or had an interest in it.
Actually the discussion did relate to the thread topic in a round about kinda way.It was a discussion about a particular religion and the lies of its founder. So in a way it does kinda relate except we were discussing the fallacies a New Age religion instead of just bashing Christians. I find Christian bashing is soooo boring and its been done to death.
mirror/monkey - why i'm not bashing anyone, i'm asking what i feel is a legitmate question(s) you may not agree - but please baby monkey -i'm not bashing, i'm trying to understand. Thats not what I meant Tribo. I dont neccesarily agree or disagree with you. I know that you dont usually waste your time bashing. Im just refering to the general trend of "Christian bashing" that a lot of people do. It don't hurt my feelings any when people do it, they are more than welcome to waste their time talking about the same stuff over and over again. Im not refering to any particular person.
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