Hi Eljay, how you doing?

no what i'm really trying to get as is what ijust posted, read and respond if you care to ok? thnx.

4) Intelligent design that is all knowing and all powerful, within reason.

I don't believe that you can modify all knowing and all powerful with the phrase within reason. It is or it isn't. You can have vast knowledge and vast power but that is what my third choice is.

hmmm?? - no response??

Your opinions of course and no more true than mine.

I disagree. My opinion is based on my study of Christian apologetics. I'm not sure how much study you have done in that field, but from your posts it doesn't appear that you understand Christian theology. Therefore, my opinion on what the Bible teaches is more accurate.

Your post is written from a point of ignorance. You are making an assumption, which is completely unjustified.

You seem to believe that God meant to create a perfect universe...God already did that and decided that he wasn't done. So God created mankind. Adam and Eve deserved to live in a perfect universe, because they were perfect and sinless. After Adam and Eve sinned, mankind no longer deserved a perfect universe. God's purpose is to raise up people to glorify him. To this end, God created a universe for mankind to live in and gave mankind a conscience to guide us.

For God's purpose of finding which free moral agents (men and angels) will choose to serve and love God, God couldn't have done a better job. I'm sure the temptation and fall of mankind wasn't planned, but it didn't screw up God's plan. If anything, it has amplified God's glory. God has to be pretty smart, don't you think? God's plan is perfect and without flaws, as it overcomes any flaws of the free moral agents who live under God's plan. You seem to think that because people suffer that God screwed up. If nobody suffered then it would be impossible for other people to bless them. If you are so angry about the world that God created, have you followed his commandments to make it a better place? Do you feed the poor? Do you care for widows and orphans? Do you care for the sick and suffering? Do you give as much as you can to charity? If not, then what right do you have to judge God when you do nothing to help those who suffer? Even if you do all of those things, what right do you have to blame God when he put you into the world and blessed you with enough wealth to care for yourself and the poor?

My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness
--God (2 Corinthians 12:9)

Hmmm? i'm not angry spider, and yes when I'm able i do as you ask, I'm not rich, so therefore i cannot give a lot. but i do what i can.
as a human being, not by being persuaded to by others.
but all that you wrote of this subject is non important as to what i asked.

For the record though, do you do as you ask me to? From what i gather this is supposed to be a primary thing that your belief system is to take care of, which i feel they do little as to what they could. Why? - all one has to do is look around at the thousands of church buildings, expensive properties, and the wealth of material things inside and the money that goes for pastors salaries, overhead and upkeep, books, hymnals, pa equipment, musical instruments, paid speakers and other special guest, special trips, love offerings that are misused, tithes that are misused, and all else ad nauseum, your churches have become a monetary burden on the believers who attend and a entertainment center for the sheep. and yet even the poor give what little they can and it is still used wrongly. Till all the churches are shut down and sold and you meet in houses as of old, you are being bad stewarts of gods money. but enough of that.

It was not a "PERFECT UNIVERSE" if he knew that all that would take place would take place. To be perfect it would have had to remain that way till its end. Unless your saying he is like us who can only make things "SO" perfect knowing they will eventually wear out? but i doubt that is what you mean.

Spider:

You seem to believe that God meant to create a perfect universe...God already did that and decided that he wasn't done.


TRIBO:

Are you saying then that god did not take into concideration all that he intended to do before he started creation? how thoughtless of him - tsk,tsk,tsk, if he wasnt done then how could he or you say it was perfect? because the world or man or all else here was not present? your not saying anything here spider.

Until all was accomplished that was to exist in the universe it was not the entire universe was it? no! He states he was "finished creating" on the sixth day then rested, your limiting his creation only to the universe as we know it - and making later creation in that period seem as if its an after thought. that is not so according to him, he started on the 1st day and finished on the 6th, then all was completed, not until then. He just did not stop and think uh oh - forgot about earth and man and animals, ok lets start again. Sorry your incorrect. ALL creation was not over until the 6th day period! THEN the universe and evertthing in it was completed. "It is finished"


SPIDER:
After Adam and Eve sinned, mankind no longer deserved a perfect universe. God's purpose is to raise up people to glorify him. To this end, God created a universe for mankind to live in and gave mankind a conscience to guide

TRIBO:

Will leave adam and eves sin out of it for right now spider, that is a whole other topic to long to get into here.

WHY?? - why is his purpose to raise up a people to glorify him? he already had millions or billions of angels to do that? Is he so vain that he needs billions more? talk about greedy vanity, it seems this so called attribute for him to have to have more and more people to worship and adore and glorify him, outweight any of his other attributes put together.

He didn't create the universe for man, thats just your teachings or beliefs. Why would man need a universe? he can barely get out of the solar sytem? I could care less if the rest of whats out there existed or not. That would neither change my mind about god one way or the other. that is just your and others of your cults personal beliefs. He did not create a universe for man to live in, he if anything, created A planet for man to inhabit.

are you saying man had no conscience till after he sinned?? explain that one please - never heard that teaching before, show me verses for that please. tnx

None of the above.


JB

what is your take onthis JB? oh goddess of the force.

What we are talking about, I assume, is the creation of the world in which we live. It is my opinion that there is no single creator of these worlds. No single almighty god whose job it is to create worlds and populate them with intelligent life forms or tamper with DNA experiments etc.

Vast universes exist creating each other in succession. They exist in different frequencies, they all have their own inhabitants, leaders, scientists, creators, etc. There are too many to count or identify. Half the time, most entities don't know what is going on or who is in charge.

Just like our government.

JB

thank you oh exhalted one, your wisdom is appreciated, now go pamper yourself -

My sense of your logic as to "how the world should run" - and your passing judgement (as it were) on God over the events of the world in an historical and present scenario - leads me to believe that you somehow think God "looks ahead" after setting something in motion, in the hope that man will chose correctly.
And when man does not - God is somehow to blame for not having the for-sight to anticipate this. I might be wrong in my perception of what you are trying to say - but this is what I percieve you are saying.

I have a problem with this logic. You are allowing God to have omniscience - but are limiting His use of it lineally. That - though He may know of the future, He can only function "towards" it, rather than away from it. For God - time moves backwards. He knows of the choices that Man will make - yet He moves the hearts of man backward in time to bring about the "best" result (as it were) according to His will.
Most perception of this "behavior" of God is limited ONLY to the outcome of an event - not the "potential" of it, as this is beyond the limited scope of man to understand the results of what "might" have happened given their idea of how "history SHOULD have happened". An overblown example of this might be the hypothesis "What would have happened to the world population of the Jewish race had the Japanease NOT bombed Pearl Harbor?". It is concievable that every single Jew, Homosexual, Gypsy, or even those falsely accused of such in all of Europe succombed to the Great Solution. That the people of Russia be speaking German right now, and that every home in America have a commemorative poster of Hitler Hanging on the wall. Were that our reality today - there would still be those cursing God for stopping the Japanease bombing - instead of criticizing Him for allowing it to happen.

I always find it a bit amusing when I hear people claim they would have handled Jericho differently than God commanded Joshua. Like they think their presumed solution a possible alternative outcome. Yet they know nothing of what an alternative outcome would bring, since they would still be left with Man having the freedom of choice. This is the product of "Hollywood" think - for lack of a better analogy. Man percieving that they can look back into history and right percieved wrongs without having any idea of what their imagined "corrections" might produce. "The Butterfly Effect" captures this whole way of thinking quite nicely. But what amuses me the most - is that the many "complaints about God's incompetance in the Old Testament is never followed up with a "better solution". I wonder why that is? And here, we're expected to accept this as logical, when no logical alternative is introduced? Amusing.

Tribo;

I just caught up with the thread. My wife commandeered the computer after I posted. I think I adressed your subsequent post. If not - clarify for me.

lj

But this is where you are so wrong. You think you're interpretation of the Bible is more accurate simply because you believe it to be true. You also think that you because you buy into Christian apologetics that somehow give credence to what you think you know.

It's doesn't matter that you know that story. We all do! The difference is that you buy into it and we don't. The so-called justifications that you give for the story don't wash.

This would be like you knowing the story of Alice in Wonderland inside out. So you could explain precisely what the story is trying to say. So big deal. That doesn't make the story any more true.

I fully understand what the bible is trying to claim. I simply don't believe the stories, it's as simple as that. The book conflicts with its very own picture of God. You've been on these forums for about a year or so now and you have yet to post a single solitary thing about the Bible that I didn't already know before I met you. And none of your justifications has made any sense.

And perhaps the follow quote might help you to see why this is so,...

Spider wrote to Abra:

You are completely ignoring the fallen nature of our world. And personal responsibility.

I'm not ignoring it at all. I simply don't believe it. I don't believe that all of mankind has fallen short of the glory of God. I don't buy into that hogwash.

I fully understand the guilt trip that the Bible would like to lay on us. I'm not buying it because I know better. I know from my own personal experiences in this life that it absolutely positively is not true that all men (and women) have fallen from the grace of God. I know that's a lie from first-hand experience.

Moreover, any arguments offered to try to claim that it isn't a lie must necessarily require that it is simply a sin to be human period. But that would fly in the face that we fell from the grace of God since that would require that being human is an automatic fall from grace. In other words, we couldn't even be held responsible for it if that's the case.

In fact, the bible goes on to contradict itself further by claiming that no man can resist sin without God. However, if that's true, then no man can be responsible for what he inherently can't do!

Like Spreid had pointed out in the OP of this thread,...



If God created man in such a way that man cannot resist sin without God then God most certainly can't hold man responsible for not resisting sin because this is precisely how God designed him to be!

Here's where you are wrong Spider

You think that because you accept what the Bible says that this somehow gives you a superior knowledge and understanding of the Bible. But that's not true. All it means is that you are accepting it's premises without questioning them.

Of course, it's going to make sense to you that way because you are automatically already accepting the most nonsensical premises.


If I accept the biblical premises of course I could convince myself the story is true. But to do that I would have to accept what I consider to be the most absurd nonsense on the planet.

So you have no leg up on the bible. You're simply looking at it from within and you refuse to step outside of it and look at it objectively. I could do that too, but why would I want to? I'm interested in truth Spider, I'm not interested in trying to blind myself into supporting an ancient myth.

I live in this universe, I don't live inside the bible. I must consider all information in the world in which I live. And when I do that it becomes clear to me that the Bible is totally absurd nonsense. It's premises don't wash. They don't hold water in the face of what the bible claims God is supposed to be like.

You want to give God credit for everything and claim that God is perfect an infallible and put all blame on mankind for everything that isn't right about this universe.

But that's an untenable position. It can't be made to work. Period.

If this world is screwed up, no one is to blame but its creator. If you want to talk about responsibility then God must ultimately be responsible for his creation. He can't pass that buck off onto anyone else. And he most certainly would not be justified in playing hide & seek and then blaming those who fail to find him. Especially considering how Totally Absurd the bible is! You have to believe that this God turned people into pillars of salt, and asked people to stone their children etc., the list goes on and on an on.

Why should I believe in a God who asked people to stone their children? That doesn't sound like a perfect God to me.

Face it Spider, no matter how much apologetics you come up with the biblical stories are stories about a very violent God who uses violence to solve problems. There are almost no stories in the whole Bible where God solved problems using actual wisdom and love. It's completely counter to what it claims God is supposed to be like. Even the crucifixion was a horrifically violent solution to the problem of man's disobedience to God. It's a horrible story form beginning to end. It's all based on blood, guts. stoning sinners, and general violence of all sorts including that Great Flood, just yet another example of God solving problems using horrific methods.

There's no excuse for it.

To answer the op. None of the above. I have my beliefs. As far as creation goes, i simply do not question it. Reasons are simple.

1. If i could understand creation, it means i could do it. I'm not talking about cloneing here, i'm talking about the creation of the universe. It also means i could undo it.

2. I cannot understand gods thoughts (note the lower case 'g' directing at any and all gods of every religion. If i understood gods thoughts, i would be as smart and pretty much as powerful.

3. why is it important. Sorry to say this, but we are all alive. knowing or not has no bering on our life. It changes nothing.

4. I dont worry about the things that i can't control. Though i'm still learning how to do this, there is no sense in worrying about it, or trying to find an answer.

That is a good philosophy. Don't worry about things you can't control or do anything about. You only need to know enough to accomplish what it is you want to accomplish in this world.

I don't know how computers or televisions work but I am not driven to find out. I have other interests. I just accept that somebody somewhere knows that information and is handling it. If I need help in that area I take my computer to them and tell them to "handle it!"

That is called delegation.

That is how the universe is run.

The reason for so much diversity in this reality because each individual needs to find the things that interest them and pursue knowledge and experience in that area. That is what is called discovering your "purpose." You purpose is the thing that you are passionate about and are drawn or driven to do. Until you discover your passion or purpose, you will tinker around with many things.

When you discover your purpose and begin to pursue it, the Universe will begin to provide you with all that you need to accomplish it. This is an indication that you are on purpose. You heart will sing with joy as you proceed and the universe will work with you in an almost magical way.

This too involves the law of attraction.

JB

hi eljay, this is the correct response i was reffering to. You need to invest in another computer - hahaha


eljay:

leads me to believe that you somehow think God "looks ahead" after setting something in motion, in the hope that man will chose correctly.


tribo:

No, I was not meaning that. What i was trying to get across is this. If god is who he claims to be, and has infinite knowledge and infinite power also, then one would think at least that he would prototype his design and test it before putting it into existance "IF" he wanted it to remain perfect and turn out as he had planned without having to interfere with what was happening.

After all it is his creation were talking of here, not mine. He as creator has the ability to create something perfectly and if it was created perfectly, then there would be no need to interfere with it at all. I respect your take on this and the anologies provided but it does not hit the core of what i'm asking.

which is - Why would a god with infinite wisdom and power and all else go ahead with something that he could not assure would remain in "perfect" condition? If "perfection" is all he is capable of, then in what sense do you see "this" world and man as perfection? And please dont state it's not completed yet, Why? because for millions it is finished, they are gone, to whatever awaited them. To me the caualties are not worth the needs of a vain god who does this for no other reason than wanting more creatures to adore and worship him.

Tribo,

I didn't want to have to be the one to reveal this truth, but since you asked,..... WE ARE THE PROTOTYPE!

And we had flaws.

That is why the creators wanted to destroy us all, but some of them took pity on us and decided to let the experiment run a muck and see what happened.

And lots of really good things did happen. The depths of evil were matched with equal amounts of love and compassion in a natural balance of nature and consciousness. This turned out to be a good thing.

But the experiments and creations continue in another place. Want to know what the next human body will be like?

It will live around two thousand years. It will not procreate as much. It will be able to regrow a severed limb and it will have a better immune system. It will be both male and female. Yep that's what they are working on.

Of course this will be in another galaxy on a different planet, similar to earth.

JB