No, I was not meaning that. What i was trying to get across is this. If god is who he claims to be, and has infinite knowledge and infinite power also, then one would think at least that he would prototype his design and test it before putting it into existance "IF" he wanted it to remain perfect and turn out as he had planned without having to interfere with what was happening.

OK, lets look at this from a different perspective spider, Your take, the christian take, i believe, is that once, as i read, that god is like someone in a helicopter watching a parade occurring from beginning to end all at once, for him there is no beginning middle or end to the parade while it takes place, from his vantage point he sees all correct?? is that what your trying to get across??

OK, if it is then, here's what I'm saying.

your god supposedly gave us our intellect or ability to think and create thoughts and dreams, etc. We as pathetic humans, as to infinite intellect or knowledge, still are able to come up with ideas such as making cars or planes or spacecraft correct?

when we do such thing's we take those thoughts we have thought and build what we think will work like a car for instance, it's called a ""prototype"" maybe only one of many to follow. the reason we do this is because there are many flaws usually that have to be worked out before it becomes something of use or offering to others in a meaningful way. Once we get to the point of working out those flaws as much as ""humanly"" possible, we go ahead with putting it into production, if all goes well the product sells and we move on to thinking about the next design(s).

BUT - with your god, it seems your saying that he just moves forward with faulty designs and fixes them, on the fly as they pop up over time. this causes me and other's problems because if we who are not the creator or have no infinite wisdom or knowledge, can see that it takes us to build "prototypes" in order to finalize our designs of things past, present, and future, that an "ALL" knowing infinite being who supposedly gave us this ability we have - would not in turn, use that same substance he gave us, to work things out before just haphazardously saying ""god said"". If your god can do no better than acting carelessly with his abilities then he is truly a stupid god. Why? Because his vanity, pride, ego, and self centeredness cloud what any human with any common sense would consider a must if he was given the challenge to do as your god supposedly has done.

If he was working for me as a designer and did not prototype his designs and just went ahead and started to mfg. said product's - i would fire him on the spot!! Yet you want to try and make me or others to believe what you say he's done is OK in your eyes? Hmmm??


all of what I've been trying to get at is this - if your god is to stupid to not take the time to run some test, do a prototype, or even think about doing such or thinking it out in a meaningful way as to not allowing such inconsistencies to take place as he has, ""BEFORE"" actually starting to create anything at all, then he is of lesser substance than that which he created. If that be the case then why would one not find him to be stupid? If I'm smarter than that which created me, why then do i need the creator? And why would i follow after such a being? And why would you or anyone else? I try to look at core questions that need to be answered as much as i possibly can - and this is a core question. Why did god not test this creation he set into motion out before going ahead with its beginning, knowing once it was set in motion he could not change anything that happened???

My sense of your logic as to "how the world should run" - and your passing judgement (as it were) on God over the events of the world in an historical and present scenario - leads me to believe that you somehow think God "looks ahead" after setting something in motion, in the hope that man will chose correctly.
And when man does not - God is somehow to blame for not having the for-sight to anticipate this. I might be wrong in my perception of what you are trying to say - but this is what I percieve you are saying.

I have a problem with this logic. You are allowing God to have omniscience - but are limiting His use of it lineally. That - though He may know of the future, He can only function "towards" it, rather than away from it. For God - time moves backwards. He knows of the choices that Man will make - yet He moves the hearts of man backward in time to bring about the "best" result (as it were) according to His will.
Most perception of this "behavior" of God is limited ONLY to the outcome of an event - not the "potential" of it, as this is beyond the limited scope of man to understand the results of what "might" have happened given their idea of how "history SHOULD have happened". An overblown example of this might be the hypothesis "What would have happened to the world population of the Jewish race had the Japanease NOT bombed Pearl Harbor?". It is concievable that every single Jew, Homosexual, Gypsy, or even those falsely accused of such in all of Europe succombed to the Great Solution. That the people of Russia be speaking German right now, and that every home in America have a commemorative poster of Hitler Hanging on the wall. Were that our reality today - there would still be those cursing God for stopping the Japanease bombing - instead of criticizing Him for allowing it to happen.

I always find it a bit amusing when I hear people claim they would have handled Jericho differently than God commanded Joshua. Like they think their presumed solution a possible alternative outcome. Yet they know nothing of what an alternative outcome would bring, since they would still be left with Man having the freedom of choice. This is the product of "Hollywood" think - for lack of a better analogy. Man percieving that they can look back into history and right percieved wrongs without having any idea of what their imagined "corrections" might produce. "The Butterfly Effect" captures this whole way of thinking quite nicely. But what amuses me the most - is that the many "complaints about God's incompetance in the Old Testament is never followed up with a "better solution". I wonder why that is? And here, we're expected to accept this as logical, when no logical alternative is introduced? Amusing.

hi eljay, this is the correct response i was reffering to. You need to invest in another computer - hahaha


eljay:

leads me to believe that you somehow think God "looks ahead" after setting something in motion, in the hope that man will chose correctly.


tribo:

No, I was not meaning that. What i was trying to get across is this. If god is who he claims to be, and has infinite knowledge and infinite power also, then one would think at least that he would prototype his design and test it before putting it into existance "IF" he wanted it to remain perfect and turn out as he had planned without having to interfere with what was happening.

After all it is his creation were talking of here, not mine. He as creator has the ability to create something perfectly and if it was created perfectly, then there would be no need to interfere with it at all. I respect your take on this and the anologies provided but it does not hit the core of what i'm asking.

which is - Why would a god with infinite wisdom and power and all else go ahead with something that he could not assure would remain in "perfect" condition? If "perfection" is all he is capable of, then in what sense do you see "this" world and man as perfection? And please dont state it's not completed yet, Why? because for millions it is finished, they are gone, to whatever awaited them. To me the casualties are not worth the needs of a vain god who does this for no other reason than wanting more creatures to adore and worship him.