im not stating that we "know" of evolution at all. i'm debating the monotheistic gods supposed infinite wisdom and knowlede of "all" things as to why he would create anything the way he supposedly created, "knowing what the outcome would be for billions of people who would not believe in him.

No, it's not, it's only a paradox if the future doesn't happen. If God knows the future and the future happens...no paradox. Maybe you should clarify what you are trying to get at, because I see no paradox.

Tribo,

It's not the future if it's not going to happen. You keep talking about God knowing the future and deciding to not create the earth. God can't KNOW THE FUTURE IF THE FUTURE WILL NEVER HAPPEN. We are going in circles with you making the same fallacious statements repeatedly. Try to understand what I'm posting here, because this is the third time I have pointed out this fallacy to you.

If God knows an event will occur...THE EVENT MUST OCCUR. Otherwise, God knows false information.

Neither you nor Abra are getting this. Please try to understand the point I'm making, because otherwise this conversation will just continue to go in circles.

I didn't forget we have free will and I believe it applies to possibilities 1 and 3. I don't think it applies to the second possibility. If there is an all knowing entity this means that even though you feel you are making a choice you aren't. A decision in which the choice is known to a certainty is not really a choice. Thank you for your interest.

That's completely illogical. How could God's knowledge of the future eliminate free will? God's foreknowledge of events doesn't negate the fact that the individual makes the choices involved.

But the biblical God is an intervening God who intervenes on the fly to change the future.

Therefore there had to have been futures that he knew that he prevented from happening via his interventions.

It's just another "have your cake and eat it too deal"

Just another inconsistencies. Just another contradiction.

An God that supposedly knows the future yet he has to intervene to change it. Thus he must be able to know of futures that never unfold.

You can't have the cake and eat it too. Either God can only know one future and never intervene. Or he can intervene which means that he must be able to knowing all possible futures whether they unfold or not.

Doesn't the concept of choice imply the possibility of more than one outcome? I'm not saying it doesn't feel like we are making a decision and whatever we decide can have different results. What I am saying is that under the principle of an all knowing entity the decision is already known and there is only one result possible.

If an all knowing being existed he would definitely eliminate free will. How can there be free will with a god who already knows and manipulates the outcome of all actions forever and ever. That being said, if he knows something horrible is about to happen and he sits by and watches for the show, what does that make him? Capable of saving millions and still allows horridity to happen?

The problem here is it is illogical, the whole concept. God as the ill mannered child with an ant farm who sends in the evil ant eater or fire or water at his whim to wipe out many ants but wants complete adoration from his ants for their very livelyhood. And when a hole collapses he watches in humor as his ants run to and fro trying to save each other but to no avail. Then claims it is "the work of god that noone has the right to challenge as to why all the ants had to die, even the babies". It is not logical, the whole concept.

The bottom line for the three scenarios is simple.

If there is no creator then #1 is true and atheists are correct.

If either #2 or #3 are correct, then there is an intelligent creator. Except the creator of #3 would be far wiser.

If there is a creator, it's probably far wiser than we can ever hope to imagine. Therefore #3 is the best best.

If #2 is correct then we're all doomed, even those who decide to become eternal servants to the entity.

I have seriously problems with a God who would NEED eternal servants and worshipers in the first place. A God who needs to be worshiped and served is a needy God.

For me, the idea that God would be needy is just plain creepy. A needy God would hardly be omnipotent. Such a God would be something to be pitied. That would truly be a sad state of affairs.

As far as I'm concerned it's either #1 or #3.

Although, #2 could always be true. God could turn out to be creepy. But such a God would be almost in the same boat with humans. It would have its own limitations, wants and needs.

In fact, the whole idea of the Biblical having ambitions to become the King of Kings and Lords of Lords over his own creation is nothing more that a power ego trip. That's a human frailty. We can only pray to the powers that be that God is above that kind of nonsense.

"KNOWING" something and "CREATING" something are to different things. "IF" he is responsible for ""creating all that will take place"", then He "foreknew" how it would turn out! If therefore he "knew" how it would turn out "HE" that which created all future, created that which would occur. Thus he "FOREKNEW" the results. Either god foreknew what would happen or he is not infinitely knowing. Either god "CAN" no all future "before" it is created - or he can't! If he cant, he is a limited god as to knowledge. Your statement - GOD "CAN"T" KNOW THE FUTURE IF THE FUTURE WILL NEVER HAPPEN. limits god. How? - It was "HIS" future to "CREATE!" [[before it took place]]. He, with his infinite knowledge would surely "HAVE" to know what was going to unfold through out all future occurrences with man, if not then he is not infinitely knowledgeable. your statement that he cant know the future if it never happens is illogical, it was totally in his hands to create the future! Or are you stating that he is incapable of such wisdom or knowledge? if so then he is not an all knowing being. It either WAS his future to know, or it wasn't. It is not a matter of "the future will never happen" as to his knowing, it's a matter of that which he foreknew before he started to create that should have lit up a warning sign of what all would happen if he created things as he presumably did.. What "you" seem to be missing in my point is - god had or has the ability to think about what he decided to do before he actually proceeded to do it, all of it! therefore he could see before creation just how things would end up. If he gave us the ability to weight out are options to do or not do something in the limited ways that we do such, but does not use those faculties he gave us to do the same, then he is a stupid god. For he supposedly knows all at all times about everything.

You're absolutely right. It's neither logical nor would it be righteous.

Plus the whole picture is a picture of a God who is obcessed with being worshiped and revered. It's a really lame picture of a God. Any deity that was actually like that would be pathetic to say the least.

Spreid,

All of the choices exist and are available to us, but God already knows the one we will chose. This is true prescience and does not in any way impact our free will. God knows the choices we will make only because they are the choices we will make.

Abra and spreid,

Our time/space is finite, but God's is infinite. God does not live within our universe, but God can visit. When God has visited our universe, it has always been Jesus. When God visits our universe, God interacts within the present as his character dictates. So even if God knows the future, God behaves as if he didn't. When parenting, we will often know what our children's future behavior will be, but we will still treat them as if we didn't. Recently, I bought my son a computer game and all told I spent around $100. I did it because that's what he wanted and I wanted to treat him. I told his mother "He will quit playing this game in a week"...I'm not sure that it even took that long. But I did it because I love him. In the same way, God blesses people in the present fully aware that they will misbehave in the future. God treats each of us as we deserve to be treated at the present moment.

Many parts of the Bible are written in the language of appearances...it's not a literal account it's a description of how events would have looked to an observer. The Bible says it took six days for God to create the universe, but from God's position outside of our universe the universe was created instantly. From God's perspective, all things that had to happen happened. It's for this reason that Jesus is called "the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world" in Revelation 13:8. Think of God's actions within the world as strokes from a painters brush...without the strokes, the painting wouldn't even exist.

Forgive me, but I only read the first few sentences. The Bible does not imply that God is responsible for "creating all that will take place", I have not suggested that God is either. I'm not sure if you are going onto a tangent or if you are making a strawman fallacy. We have free will, angels and humans alike. For that reason, God is only responsible for his own actions. Since God isn't creating the future, the only way God can know the future is because the future will happen.

But Spider, we know this isn't true.

To even think like this you are suggesting that eveyone who is in pain, or in a bad situation is only in it because it's what they deserve.

A lot of people think like this, they see a homeless person on street and think, "They must deserve it or they wouldn't be there"

That's total bull crap. I don't believe that for a second.

Also that would even fly in the face of helping people!

When New Orleans got hit with that big hurricane we'd just say, "Well those people must have deserved it otherwise God wouldn't have let it happen". And for us to even help those people would be to go against God's wishes. After all, if he wanted to punish them who are we to intervene and help them?

You philosophy just doesn't make sense.

You'll say anything to defend the biblical picture of God whether it makes any sense or not.

It doesn't work like that. God influences our actions through our conscience, but God doesn't manipulate people. If God did, there would be no free will, you are right on that. But nothing in the Bible implies that God manipulates our lives.



Our world sucks, but it's as good as we deserve. Terrible things happen and most times its us doing them to ourselves. God has given us the rules to live by, people reject him and then think to blame God for their troubles? Starving people in the world? There wouldn't be if everybody fed the hungry. Homelessness? It wouldn't be a problem if people cared for the poor as God commands. Name any problem faced by the world and the OT has the perfect solution already.



Gratuitous assertions. Faulty analogy. Distortion of facts. I'm sorry, but this whole paragraph is pointless to my mind. I don't see anything that I need to or should respond to.

This is like saying that there's no proof that the earth isn't at the center of creation.

The proof for evolutuion is so overwhelming that it isn't even questioned by science anymore. It's accepted as fact. The only people who question it are religious fanatics.

Evolution is everywhere....except in here, it doesn't appear to be evolving at all....perhaps devolving???

Abra,

You are completely ignoring the fallen nature of our world. And personal responsibility. If someone is sick, that's a problem of this world, not a plague sent by God. If someone is suffering, it's not because God wanted that person to suffer. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm talking about blessings here. If someone is right with God, then God will bless that person. That in no way means that person won't still stuffer or be sick. Jesus suffered and died and that's the fate that awaits all men. Blessing literally means "to infuse with holiness". A blessing could be a new job or a pain free day or a visit from a friend or a sandwich or a feeling of contentedness...the list goes on. Blessings don't have to be great wealth and perfect health.

However Tribo - you are attributing to God the slight error of Spider's post. His choice of "God tried" is his perception of the actions of God. It could be quite possible that God convicted the perp of the future consequences of his actions - yet the Perp refused to heed the conviction. This behavior is termed "a seared conscience" in biblical terms, and the bible goes on further to explain that God gives them over to the lusts of their desires". In other words - he does not interfere in THEIR choice. But God is not mocked. As ye reap, so shall ye sow. So God's inter-action in Spider's example extends far beyond your simplistic analysis of it. God is "not like a man trying to act moral". God IS the teue morality. The standard by which man attempts to measure himself. All, aside from Abra (by his own admission) fall woefully short of this attribute. Enough so that the attempt to look for flaws in God concerning morals is best abandoned by man, and the standards set are better sought after for those who wish to live up to their lofty visions of themselves. (That they deem themselves worthy to attempt to find a flaw in God - who's definition includes that He have none.)

OK, lets look at this from a different perspective spider, Your take, the christian take, i believe, is that once, as i read, that god is like someone in a helicopter watching a parade occurring from beginning to end all at once, for him there is no beginning middle or end to the parade while it takes place, from his vantage point he sees all correct?? is that what your trying to get across??

OK, if it is then, here's what I'm saying.

your god supposedly gave us our intellect or ability to think and create thoughts and dreams, etc. We as pathetic humans, as to infinite intellect or knowledge, still are able to come up with ideas such as making cars or planes or spacecraft correct?

when we do such thing's we take those thoughts we have thought and build what we think will work like a car for instance, it's called a ""prototype"" maybe only one of many to follow. the reason we do this is because there are many flaws usually that have to be worked out before it becomes something of use or offering to others in a meaningful way. Once we get to the point of working out those flaws as much as ""humanly"" possible, we go ahead with putting it into production, if all goes well the product sells and we move on to thinking about the next design(s).

BUT - with your god, it seems your saying that he just moves forward with faulty designs and fixes them, or ignores them, on the fly as they pop up over time. this causes me and other's problems because if we who are not the creator or have no infinite wisdom or knowledge, can see that it takes us to build "prototypes" in order to finalize our designs of things past, present, and future, that an "ALL" knowing infinite being who supposedly gave us this ability we have - would not in turn, use that same substance he gave us, to work things out before just haphazardously saying ""god said"". If your god can do no better than acting carelessly with his abilities then he is truly a stupid god. Why? Because his vanity, pride, ego, and self centeredness cloud what any human with any common sense would consider a must if he was given the challenge to do as your god supposedly has done.

If he was working for me as a designer and did not prototype his designs and just went ahead and started to mfg. said product's - i would fire him on the spot!! Yet you want to try and make me or others to believe what you say he's done is OK in your eyes? Hmmm??


all of what I've been trying to get at is this - if your god is to stupid to not take the time to run some test, do a prototype, or even think about doing such or thinking it out in a meaningful way as to not allowing such inconsistencies to take place as he has, ""BEFORE"" actually starting to create anything at all, then he is of lesser substance than that which he created. If that be the case then why would one not find him to be stupid? If I'm smarter than that which created me, why then do i need the creator? And why would i follow after such a being? And why would you or anyone else? I try to look at core questions that need to be answered as much as i possibly can - and this is a core question. Why did god not test this creation he set into motion out before going ahead with its beginning, knowing once it was set in motion he could not change anything that happened???