Feral, consider what you have stated? Do you honestly believe that biblical scriptures are the oldest writing on the earth? In case you do, I’d like to say - not. I’ll even go further and say that many writings are much more ancient than those of your scriptures and amazingly similar. Mmmm… Also, there are many writings far older that have not undergone nearly as much ‘revision’ and we understand them just fine, without the need for a holy intervention.


QUOTE:

Redy I don't care if it's the oldest or the youngest or done in 5 million languages by 40 men. My point was that there is no way in God's green earth that he is going to let a book just written by man all about him be around with out warrant of what it it is. And please Redy bring me these scriptures because I have told you guys forever bring on the proof to back up anything you say....I would be more then happy to look at it. But thus far...I have not.

Just like you redy I have searched and as In my post regaarding Mormons.....I looked at many saw they were false and moved on...

Red, I don't disagree with your last post (3:24pm)... it just seems to me that you are putting so much attention on one particular (lets assume) shackle to the human mind.

Its saddens me to see people (not you, I'm speaking in general) who move from theist to atheist, or atheist to theist, or whatever, and -think- to themselves that they are 'more openminded' simply for having done so, without examining the exact nature of their beliefs and how their beliefs influence their thinking.

If we believe that having a 'free mind' is a 'good thing', how do you -know- if your mind is somewhat free? Just because of the set of beliefs you hold allegiance to? or the -way- in which you hold allegiance to those beliefs? Or something else?

Regarding your later paragraph, is that the ONLY thing you admit your are bound to?

Feral the falicy I see in the Mormon religion is no more or less than the falicy I see in all religions. That was my point. Clear and simple. You see the falicy in other religions but are blinded to those that exist in your own.

Massagetrade asked about the beliefs that bind us. He may well think that my seeing only falicy in the place of religions is a belief I'm bound to.

BUT I can respond to that as well as his last post, at the same time. He wrote:



If a belief system prohibits a person from experiencing everything (within civil and social parameters)that the human can experience then it is harmful and can not, by any logical explanation, contain only good and love and harmony and truth. The reasons for this are in history, in the human experience and in science but they are just out reach for those whose beliefs are in danger from what can be found there.

Hi Mass... Red... Feral...



To me, anything that keeps us from who we are, whether that be religion, social status, or our own set of unrecognized unconscious behaviours as a result of whatever, are indeed shackles. Those things that keep us from recognizing why and how we have become what we have, those things will continue our unconsciously looking at the world through it's own fingerprint.

The removal of the fingerprint of the world is the beginning of the assimilation between oneself and ego(personas)...

The removal of the shackles...

Hi Creative



Yes, I will agree.

Hey CS nice to see ya.....hope life is being good...

i have to say, this is one of the most civilized discussions on atheism i've ever read.

as for my 2 cents..
atheism is not a religion. i understand the initial argument but no, believing there's nothing is not basically a religion. it's more simply a lifestyle. what i've always thought to be the core of any religion are worship and faith- believing against all odds, proof, instinct/ common sense, and/or other popular ideas. neither are present with atheism. agnosticism and taoism are similar, though taoism is generally viewed as a philosophy.

i can't really add anything that hasn't been said. but for another good read try Atheism: A Reader compiled by S.T. Joshi. it's a collection of arguments and essays on the subject throughout modern society, some by well-known historical figures.

Another interesting book. Will check it out and thank you for the information!

Oh really? I only know of two people who claim to be "atheists." There may be more, I have not checked profiles. Many of us are agnostic or pantheist.

JB

Religion originally is used to describe a relationship between "Man" and "God". Or as to traditions that are used in man's way to reach out to God. So no, Atheism is not a religion.

Feralcat, I have seen you post this little bit of "reasoning" several times and I have a friend who used to be a Jehovah's witness that use to repeatedly say something very similar.

Is this where you got this idea? Are you a Jehovah's witness or did you used to be one?

If not, where do you get the idea that God has anything to do with how long a book lingers on earth? I think the religious control system is what is responsible for the printing and distribution of Bibles, not God.

JB

this is a cool thread!!!

Not one of these is required to believe anything. These are all actions of some religions. Again, not all religions believe in doing any or all of these.



Actually it's becoming a religion. Plenty of people that believe there is no higher power are finding eachother and agreeing with eachother.

Your making a stupid assumption about faith. Faith is not limited to a higher power. I can have faith in myself seperate from spirituality and religion. I can have faith that the truck across the street will honk its horn. gods got nothing to do with that.

I do think that the belief that there is no god has brought upon spiritual expierences to many athiests. Therefore it probly is.

It's kinda a pathetic topic. Your basicly saying 'screw these guys, they can't join our club'. I would say how christian of you to not treat others how you want to be treated (to be accepted based on your beliefs) but that would insult those who do accept everyones beliefs. The biggest difference is athiests could care less if its a religion or not.

I have studied many many religions JB....I studied in my home with a wonderful woman who was a Jehovah Witness. I did so with many people of different religions. It wasn't because I was searching for the religion that best fit me. It was more of people telling me why not to believe it and me wanting to see for myself. And with many religions a lot of what I was told was wrong. So for me it was a beautiful Thing.

No I have said over and over again That I chose to be a Christian because of the fellowship with others, I enjoy being around and learning from all the wonderful people at my church. Maybe we are lucky in that sense....because we truly care and come to each other when needed.

But my relationship with Christ is a very personal journey that I have taken and that to which I know he is real. Because of experiences I myself have had. It would be easy if I could take each and every person and let them live the experiences I have had. But since I can't do this.....and your free will let you choose...so be it. I can't and won't deny that the Lord is real ever....not because I was brought up that way...but because of what the Lord has shown me.


So also to answer REDY I don't care about the falicy of each and every religion because to me it's such a tiny tiny part of what it is to "me" on the whole. This is where I get beyond annoyed....STOP lumping together everyone in what in your minds is a "Chrisian" Does it in the overall scheme of life mean jack diddly....nope....the only thing for me that matters is "MY PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST", The "LOVE OF THE FATHER GOD". PERIOD.

Also JB my point about the Bible again has nothing to do with "Religion" and all to do with it being the infallible, inspired, inherent Word of the Living God. I believe each and every word from Genesis to Revelation, cover to cover. It is the owners manual for human beings. And where it originally came from is pointless again in the overall scheme of it being here. And there is no way anyone can convince me that God would let a book as you guys put it "written JUST by man be allowed to remain as long as it has.

How could you not think that a book that was written all about God's plan for us have anything to do with anything but GOD........Again if your assuming religious control then again doesn't work for me....because I am not under any "religious control"

Hello feral. Unfortunately, the Scripture you quote is meant for believers. The fact that you post it and the response it invites only affirms this. I would congratulate you on receiving it, however, the argument will provide fruitless results. You can provide Scripture only to those willing to accept it as infallible. Sadly, all else are spiritually discerned to it.

Very correct! Scriptures only mean something to someone who believes it as the word of God and trusts in it. It is worthless to someone like me, who feels that it is man made and not true.

As one who has studied religion(s) for the better part of my life, the first point I would offer is one to appeal to those who would call theirselves "athiests";
By definition, a thiest is one who believes in a god, The God, or other means of worship. With that in mind, add the prefix "a-" and you can apply the opposite for definition. So yes, athiest have a belief. Now is athiesm a religion? Since a religion is defined as a system of beliefs, I would say it is on the basis of definition alone. Since thiests have systematic theology, an athiest would believe that this system is false. This would be building their theology as well, whether it is agreeable to others or not. This is, of course, only an opinion based on definition.

I would also add that the end result of thiests and athiests alike will be death. To a thiest, death here will transform into a series of options. Christians will either be glorified in Christ or be damned eternally. Bhuddists will be advanced or diminished according to their kharma. This list continues for the varied religions and for the sake of brevity will be omitted. However, for an athiest, death can only offer annihlation. This appeals to them because it offers no consequence to actions here and now. Indeed, you can look at streets today to see actions which reap no consequence, so why should death be any different?

I believe it is very sad to be so devoid of hope for anything more than what we have here. I believe in the life, crucifixion, burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ. I also believe that God elects those whom He will and I can provide Scripture all day long to those who need it. The fruits of this world are extremely attractive, but bereft of hope. I can tell you this with certainty; whether it is the God of Scripture, Vishnu, Bhudda, Allah, money, power, fame, success, we all have a god.

JESUS CHRIST WILL NEVER RISE AGAIN! N by the way GOD IS A LIE!