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| Topic: How Many? - But WHY? | |
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It is amazing to me how many people leave Christianity, myself included, due to the acts of man. We are all human. None of us are perfect. I don't understand (but am beginning to) why people blame God for man's imperfections. I blame man for man's imperfections. I blame a system of brainwashing and dogma for the corruption of people's spiritual followings. The Hebrew God had nothing to do with christianity, it's formation, or it's corruption of the spirituality or religion of people. I believe once Jesus had a speech about taxes, coins ect where he said give to God what belongs to God, and Give to man what belongs to man. The belief that God had anything to do with Christianity in it's modern or even ancient form as understood by modern man per my opinion has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with the failings of man. In some ways one can view Christianity itself as a test of spiritual fortitude tempting people to sin in the name of God which is the most appealing sin in existence for a Christian since it allows one to sin and them justify it blaming responsibility on their god. My struggle to get my own family to accept my spiritual differences was not easy, and took years of talking with them time and time again feeling unloved and unaccepted but as good Christians they eventually came to understand that rather than rejecting spirituality I was rejecting a system that was wrong for me. When I recently argued with my mother about her own belief she said something to the effect that it works for her and she is content, and many of the concepts I toy with in my mind are beyond her understanding leaving her content to let me puzzle these out while accepting her more straight forward simple views. This in itself was simply her response though she then later started reading a thing or two about the nature of Christianity and has even asked for my help in understanding a book she read but couldn't quite understand. My personal belief is that Christianity as a following of Christ is a failure. I acknowledge that the Christian system seems to work for some people, but it is by far relatively few when you consider how many it corrupts per my opinion. I believe this because I personally believe most of the teachins of Christ were simple to understand and propgated love, respect, and spirituality. I also believe when someone steps away from Chrisitanity it has nothing to do with Christ and that they are leaving a system of spiritual dogma (or even slavery) in order to seek their own truth. Those that can not find their own way are forced to follow others. Those that can find their own path are more likely to accept with totality the teachings of others. Divorcing oneself from a system or establishment is seperate from divorcing oneself from spirituality or religion in general. Some call it being lost but I think of it as finding oneself, and realizing that an individual's personal path to enlightenment is more meaningful than submission to a system created by other humans. Any person within this system that truly follows their personal heart and is able to maintain spiritual integrity within this system is fine by me. It is those that let the system warp their spirits or corrupt their religion that I take issue with even if I realize that the source of damage is the system rather than their personal choice. I view them as victims of the system and rather than attack them as spiritual beings simply wish for them to allow themselves enough spiritual freedom and self respect to find themselves and their own true belief. I once was debating with a Christian who questioned my tendency to give Christians a lot of challenges to face regarding their faith. My answer was that anything I say whether I say it badly or perfectly is simply an attempt to free their mind and their soul. If my statements shake their faith it is meant to be shaken, and when someone is brainwashed by a system of dogma for a lifetime my statements should mean little to a true believer and would only change the views of a false believer without conviction who never took the time to examine their own beliefs realistically. (This is paraphrased I fail to remember the exact words used in the discussion on either side I only remember the concept.) Though I have not seen enough of your posts to get a grasp of your perception of God, etc - I would say that your objection with "Christianity" and what your perception of it is does not come from a discernment of what a spirit filled believer of Christ is - from those who attend a local congregation and claim adherancy to Christianity. Your objection is more with - for lack of a better word "Church-iolity". Those who's faith is in their church, or congregation - rather than Christ and his message of truth. Those of us who's faith is in Jesus through the work of the spirit do not "blindly" accept interpretations from a pulpet - unless the exegesis is complete and consistant. The problem most have with Christianity is they blindly accept what the secular media has defined as Christian denominations, and in turn they take the actions of the aberrant ones as representative of the church as a whole. For those who think that the church of Jesus - which began with the disciples - has anything to do with what goes on in ornately decorated buildings on Sunday or Saturday mornings, and is defined by such, knows little, if anything about scripture. Claiming to be a Christian does not bring one closer to God, nor does it get one to heaven. Christianity does not save anyone - Jesus does. It is only through Jesus that one gets to the heaven of scripture. So I would here in like to announce that I am not a follower of the Christianity that I see defined in these threads. I am a disciple of Jesus - not of any congregation with whatever dogma or tenants they may follow. If in chosing to become a disciple of Jesus, that has made me a "Christian", it is by my understanding of what a Christian is, not society at large. |
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Edited by
Milesoftheusa
on
Wed 06/11/08 02:29 PM
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Why do we not follow the Disciples examples. They never called themselves Chr-stians.
Acts 9:1-2 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Master, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way , whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. NKJV Acts 16:16-18 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, "These men are the servants of the Most High El, who proclaim to us the way of salvation." 18 And this she did for many days. NKJV Acts 18:25-26 5 This man had been instructed in the way of the Master; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the master, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of Yahweh more accurately. NKJV Acts 19:9 9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. NKJV Acts 19:23 23 And about that time there arose a great commotion about the Way NKJV Acts 24:14-15 14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. NKJV Acts 24:22 But when Felix heard these things, having more accurate knowledge of the Way , he adjourned the proceedings and said, "When Lysias the commander comes down, I will make a decision on your case NKJV All these fit with What Yahshua said about himself.. John 14:6 6 Yahshua said to him, "I am the way , the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. NKJV But we have 2 spots of the Disiples being called Chr-stian Acts 26:28 8 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian . KJV This 1st place, is from a Pagan king. 1 Peter 4:16 16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian , let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify Yahweh on this behalf. KJV Do these places of being called a Chr-stian compared to The Way really make any sence why you would call yourself such? Blessings of Shalom...Miles |
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Now you won't type "Christian"? Miles, I'm really worried for you.
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It is amazing to me how many people leave Christianity, myself included, due to the acts of man. We are all human. None of us are perfect. I don't understand (but am beginning to) why people blame God for man's imperfections. I blame man for man's imperfections. I blame a system of brainwashing and dogma for the corruption of people's spiritual followings. The Hebrew God had nothing to do with christianity, it's formation, or it's corruption of the spirituality or religion of people. I believe once Jesus had a speech about taxes, coins ect where he said give to God what belongs to God, and Give to man what belongs to man. The belief that God had anything to do with Christianity in it's modern or even ancient form as understood by modern man per my opinion has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with the failings of man. In some ways one can view Christianity itself as a test of spiritual fortitude tempting people to sin in the name of God which is the most appealing sin in existence for a Christian since it allows one to sin and them justify it blaming responsibility on their god. My struggle to get my own family to accept my spiritual differences was not easy, and took years of talking with them time and time again feeling unloved and unaccepted but as good Christians they eventually came to understand that rather than rejecting spirituality I was rejecting a system that was wrong for me. When I recently argued with my mother about her own belief she said something to the effect that it works for her and she is content, and many of the concepts I toy with in my mind are beyond her understanding leaving her content to let me puzzle these out while accepting her more straight forward simple views. This in itself was simply her response though she then later started reading a thing or two about the nature of Christianity and has even asked for my help in understanding a book she read but couldn't quite understand. My personal belief is that Christianity as a following of Christ is a failure. I acknowledge that the Christian system seems to work for some people, but it is by far relatively few when you consider how many it corrupts per my opinion. I believe this because I personally believe most of the teachins of Christ were simple to understand and propgated love, respect, and spirituality. I also believe when someone steps away from Chrisitanity it has nothing to do with Christ and that they are leaving a system of spiritual dogma (or even slavery) in order to seek their own truth. Those that can not find their own way are forced to follow others. Those that can find their own path are more likely to accept with totality the teachings of others. Divorcing oneself from a system or establishment is seperate from divorcing oneself from spirituality or religion in general. Some call it being lost but I think of it as finding oneself, and realizing that an individual's personal path to enlightenment is more meaningful than submission to a system created by other humans. Any person within this system that truly follows their personal heart and is able to maintain spiritual integrity within this system is fine by me. It is those that let the system warp their spirits or corrupt their religion that I take issue with even if I realize that the source of damage is the system rather than their personal choice. I view them as victims of the system and rather than attack them as spiritual beings simply wish for them to allow themselves enough spiritual freedom and self respect to find themselves and their own true belief. I once was debating with a Christian who questioned my tendency to give Christians a lot of challenges to face regarding their faith. My answer was that anything I say whether I say it badly or perfectly is simply an attempt to free their mind and their soul. If my statements shake their faith it is meant to be shaken, and when someone is brainwashed by a system of dogma for a lifetime my statements should mean little to a true believer and would only change the views of a false believer without conviction who never took the time to examine their own beliefs realistically. (This is paraphrased I fail to remember the exact words used in the discussion on either side I only remember the concept.) Though I have not seen enough of your posts to get a grasp of your perception of God, etc - I would say that your objection with "Christianity" and what your perception of it is does not come from a discernment of what a spirit filled believer of Christ is - from those who attend a local congregation and claim adherancy to Christianity. Your objection is more with - for lack of a better word "Church-iolity". Those who's faith is in their church, or congregation - rather than Christ and his message of truth. Those of us who's faith is in Jesus through the work of the spirit do not "blindly" accept interpretations from a pulpet - unless the exegesis is complete and consistant. The problem most have with Christianity is they blindly accept what the secular media has defined as Christian denominations, and in turn they take the actions of the aberrant ones as representative of the church as a whole. For those who think that the church of Jesus - which began with the disciples - has anything to do with what goes on in ornately decorated buildings on Sunday or Saturday mornings, and is defined by such, knows little, if anything about scripture. Claiming to be a Christian does not bring one closer to God, nor does it get one to heaven. Christianity does not save anyone - Jesus does. It is only through Jesus that one gets to the heaven of scripture. So I would here in like to announce that I am not a follower of the Christianity that I see defined in these threads. I am a disciple of Jesus - not of any congregation with whatever dogma or tenants they may follow. If in chosing to become a disciple of Jesus, that has made me a "Christian", it is by my understanding of what a Christian is, not society at large. Per my understanding of what you said I believe we agree completely on this matter. I completely respect followers of Jesus Christ, and have issues with blind followers of the church which is a human organization without spiritual authority. |
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It is amazing to me how many people leave Christianity, myself included, due to the acts of man. We are all human. None of us are perfect. I don't understand (but am beginning to) why people blame God for man's imperfections. I blame man for man's imperfections. I blame a system of brainwashing and dogma for the corruption of people's spiritual followings. The Hebrew God had nothing to do with christianity, it's formation, or it's corruption of the spirituality or religion of people. I believe once Jesus had a speech about taxes, coins ect where he said give to God what belongs to God, and Give to man what belongs to man. The belief that God had anything to do with Christianity in it's modern or even ancient form as understood by modern man per my opinion has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with the failings of man. In some ways one can view Christianity itself as a test of spiritual fortitude tempting people to sin in the name of God which is the most appealing sin in existence for a Christian since it allows one to sin and them justify it blaming responsibility on their god. My struggle to get my own family to accept my spiritual differences was not easy, and took years of talking with them time and time again feeling unloved and unaccepted but as good Christians they eventually came to understand that rather than rejecting spirituality I was rejecting a system that was wrong for me. When I recently argued with my mother about her own belief she said something to the effect that it works for her and she is content, and many of the concepts I toy with in my mind are beyond her understanding leaving her content to let me puzzle these out while accepting her more straight forward simple views. This in itself was simply her response though she then later started reading a thing or two about the nature of Christianity and has even asked for my help in understanding a book she read but couldn't quite understand. My personal belief is that Christianity as a following of Christ is a failure. I acknowledge that the Christian system seems to work for some people, but it is by far relatively few when you consider how many it corrupts per my opinion. I believe this because I personally believe most of the teachins of Christ were simple to understand and propgated love, respect, and spirituality. I also believe when someone steps away from Chrisitanity it has nothing to do with Christ and that they are leaving a system of spiritual dogma (or even slavery) in order to seek their own truth. Those that can not find their own way are forced to follow others. Those that can find their own path are more likely to accept with totality the teachings of others. Divorcing oneself from a system or establishment is seperate from divorcing oneself from spirituality or religion in general. Some call it being lost but I think of it as finding oneself, and realizing that an individual's personal path to enlightenment is more meaningful than submission to a system created by other humans. Any person within this system that truly follows their personal heart and is able to maintain spiritual integrity within this system is fine by me. It is those that let the system warp their spirits or corrupt their religion that I take issue with even if I realize that the source of damage is the system rather than their personal choice. I view them as victims of the system and rather than attack them as spiritual beings simply wish for them to allow themselves enough spiritual freedom and self respect to find themselves and their own true belief. I once was debating with a Christian who questioned my tendency to give Christians a lot of challenges to face regarding their faith. My answer was that anything I say whether I say it badly or perfectly is simply an attempt to free their mind and their soul. If my statements shake their faith it is meant to be shaken, and when someone is brainwashed by a system of dogma for a lifetime my statements should mean little to a true believer and would only change the views of a false believer without conviction who never took the time to examine their own beliefs realistically. (This is paraphrased I fail to remember the exact words used in the discussion on either side I only remember the concept.) Though I have not seen enough of your posts to get a grasp of your perception of God, etc - I would say that your objection with "Christianity" and what your perception of it is does not come from a discernment of what a spirit filled believer of Christ is - from those who attend a local congregation and claim adherancy to Christianity. Your objection is more with - for lack of a better word "Church-iolity". Those who's faith is in their church, or congregation - rather than Christ and his message of truth. Those of us who's faith is in Jesus through the work of the spirit do not "blindly" accept interpretations from a pulpet - unless the exegesis is complete and consistant. The problem most have with Christianity is they blindly accept what the secular media has defined as Christian denominations, and in turn they take the actions of the aberrant ones as representative of the church as a whole. For those who think that the church of Jesus - which began with the disciples - has anything to do with what goes on in ornately decorated buildings on Sunday or Saturday mornings, and is defined by such, knows little, if anything about scripture. Claiming to be a Christian does not bring one closer to God, nor does it get one to heaven. Christianity does not save anyone - Jesus does. It is only through Jesus that one gets to the heaven of scripture. So I would here in like to announce that I am not a follower of the Christianity that I see defined in these threads. I am a disciple of Jesus - not of any congregation with whatever dogma or tenants they may follow. If in chosing to become a disciple of Jesus, that has made me a "Christian", it is by my understanding of what a Christian is, not society at large. Oh Thank God a voice of reason! THANK YOU!!! 
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Why do we not follow the Disciples examples. They never called themselves Chr-stians. Acts 9:1-2 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Master, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way , whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. NKJV Acts 16:16-18 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, "These men are the servants of the Most High El, who proclaim to us the way of salvation." 18 And this she did for many days. NKJV Acts 18:25-26 5 This man had been instructed in the way of the Master; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the master, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of Yahweh more accurately. NKJV Acts 19:9 9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. NKJV Acts 19:23 23 And about that time there arose a great commotion about the Way NKJV Acts 24:14-15 14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. NKJV Acts 24:22 But when Felix heard these things, having more accurate knowledge of the Way , he adjourned the proceedings and said, "When Lysias the commander comes down, I will make a decision on your case NKJV All these fit with What Yahshua said about himself.. John 14:6 6 Yahshua said to him, "I am the way , the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. NKJV But we have 2 spots of the Disiples being called Chr-stian Acts 26:28 8 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian . KJV This 1st place, is from a Pagan king. 1 Peter 4:16 16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian , let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify Yahweh on this behalf. KJV Do these places of being called a Chr-stian compared to The Way really make any sence why you would call yourself such? Blessings of Shalom...Miles Miles, you typed Christian without the hyphen. Bad bad bad boy. Twenty lashes with a wet noodle for you.   
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Now you won't type "Christian"? Miles, I'm really worried for you. If typing God is blaspemous then typing Christian must be equally as blasphemous apparently. Perhaps he has seen the light? Don't get worked up into a lather miles. It was a j-ke. 
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It is amazing to me how many people leave Christianity, myself included, due to the acts of man. We are all human. None of us are perfect. I don't understand (but am beginning to) why people blame God for man's imperfections. I blame man for man's imperfections. I blame a system of brainwashing and dogma for the corruption of people's spiritual followings. The Hebrew God had nothing to do with christianity, it's formation, or it's corruption of the spirituality or religion of people. I believe once Jesus had a speech about taxes, coins ect where he said give to God what belongs to God, and Give to man what belongs to man. The belief that God had anything to do with Christianity in it's modern or even ancient form as understood by modern man per my opinion has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with the failings of man. In some ways one can view Christianity itself as a test of spiritual fortitude tempting people to sin in the name of God which is the most appealing sin in existence for a Christian since it allows one to sin and them justify it blaming responsibility on their god. My struggle to get my own family to accept my spiritual differences was not easy, and took years of talking with them time and time again feeling unloved and unaccepted but as good Christians they eventually came to understand that rather than rejecting spirituality I was rejecting a system that was wrong for me. When I recently argued with my mother about her own belief she said something to the effect that it works for her and she is content, and many of the concepts I toy with in my mind are beyond her understanding leaving her content to let me puzzle these out while accepting her more straight forward simple views. This in itself was simply her response though she then later started reading a thing or two about the nature of Christianity and has even asked for my help in understanding a book she read but couldn't quite understand. My personal belief is that Christianity as a following of Christ is a failure. I acknowledge that the Christian system seems to work for some people, but it is by far relatively few when you consider how many it corrupts per my opinion. I believe this because I personally believe most of the teachins of Christ were simple to understand and propgated love, respect, and spirituality. I also believe when someone steps away from Chrisitanity it has nothing to do with Christ and that they are leaving a system of spiritual dogma (or even slavery) in order to seek their own truth. Those that can not find their own way are forced to follow others. Those that can find their own path are more likely to accept with totality the teachings of others. Divorcing oneself from a system or establishment is seperate from divorcing oneself from spirituality or religion in general. Some call it being lost but I think of it as finding oneself, and realizing that an individual's personal path to enlightenment is more meaningful than submission to a system created by other humans. Any person within this system that truly follows their personal heart and is able to maintain spiritual integrity within this system is fine by me. It is those that let the system warp their spirits or corrupt their religion that I take issue with even if I realize that the source of damage is the system rather than their personal choice. I view them as victims of the system and rather than attack them as spiritual beings simply wish for them to allow themselves enough spiritual freedom and self respect to find themselves and their own true belief. I once was debating with a Christian who questioned my tendency to give Christians a lot of challenges to face regarding their faith. My answer was that anything I say whether I say it badly or perfectly is simply an attempt to free their mind and their soul. If my statements shake their faith it is meant to be shaken, and when someone is brainwashed by a system of dogma for a lifetime my statements should mean little to a true believer and would only change the views of a false believer without conviction who never took the time to examine their own beliefs realistically. (This is paraphrased I fail to remember the exact words used in the discussion on either side I only remember the concept.) Though I have not seen enough of your posts to get a grasp of your perception of God, etc - I would say that your objection with "Christianity" and what your perception of it is does not come from a discernment of what a spirit filled believer of Christ is - from those who attend a local congregation and claim adherancy to Christianity. Your objection is more with - for lack of a better word "Church-iolity". Those who's faith is in their church, or congregation - rather than Christ and his message of truth. Those of us who's faith is in Jesus through the work of the spirit do not "blindly" accept interpretations from a pulpet - unless the exegesis is complete and consistant. The problem most have with Christianity is they blindly accept what the secular media has defined as Christian denominations, and in turn they take the actions of the aberrant ones as representative of the church as a whole. For those who think that the church of Jesus - which began with the disciples - has anything to do with what goes on in ornately decorated buildings on Sunday or Saturday mornings, and is defined by such, knows little, if anything about scripture. Claiming to be a Christian does not bring one closer to God, nor does it get one to heaven. Christianity does not save anyone - Jesus does. It is only through Jesus that one gets to the heaven of scripture. So I would here in like to announce that I am not a follower of the Christianity that I see defined in these threads. I am a disciple of Jesus - not of any congregation with whatever dogma or tenants they may follow. If in chosing to become a disciple of Jesus, that has made me a "Christian", it is by my understanding of what a Christian is, not society at large. Eljay! You are the man! I completely agree with your statement.
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It is amazing to me how many people leave Christianity, myself included, due to the acts of man. We are all human. None of us are perfect. I don't understand (but am beginning to) why people blame God for man's imperfections. I blame man for man's imperfections. I blame a system of brainwashing and dogma for the corruption of people's spiritual followings. The Hebrew God had nothing to do with christianity, it's formation, or it's corruption of the spirituality or religion of people. I believe once Jesus had a speech about taxes, coins ect where he said give to God what belongs to God, and Give to man what belongs to man. The belief that God had anything to do with Christianity in it's modern or even ancient form as understood by modern man per my opinion has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with the failings of man. In some ways one can view Christianity itself as a test of spiritual fortitude tempting people to sin in the name of God which is the most appealing sin in existence for a Christian since it allows one to sin and them justify it blaming responsibility on their god. My struggle to get my own family to accept my spiritual differences was not easy, and took years of talking with them time and time again feeling unloved and unaccepted but as good Christians they eventually came to understand that rather than rejecting spirituality I was rejecting a system that was wrong for me. When I recently argued with my mother about her own belief she said something to the effect that it works for her and she is content, and many of the concepts I toy with in my mind are beyond her understanding leaving her content to let me puzzle these out while accepting her more straight forward simple views. This in itself was simply her response though she then later started reading a thing or two about the nature of Christianity and has even asked for my help in understanding a book she read but couldn't quite understand. My personal belief is that Christianity as a following of Christ is a failure. I acknowledge that the Christian system seems to work for some people, but it is by far relatively few when you consider how many it corrupts per my opinion. I believe this because I personally believe most of the teachins of Christ were simple to understand and propgated love, respect, and spirituality. I also believe when someone steps away from Chrisitanity it has nothing to do with Christ and that they are leaving a system of spiritual dogma (or even slavery) in order to seek their own truth. Those that can not find their own way are forced to follow others. Those that can find their own path are more likely to accept with totality the teachings of others. Divorcing oneself from a system or establishment is seperate from divorcing oneself from spirituality or religion in general. Some call it being lost but I think of it as finding oneself, and realizing that an individual's personal path to enlightenment is more meaningful than submission to a system created by other humans. Any person within this system that truly follows their personal heart and is able to maintain spiritual integrity within this system is fine by me. It is those that let the system warp their spirits or corrupt their religion that I take issue with even if I realize that the source of damage is the system rather than their personal choice. I view them as victims of the system and rather than attack them as spiritual beings simply wish for them to allow themselves enough spiritual freedom and self respect to find themselves and their own true belief. I once was debating with a Christian who questioned my tendency to give Christians a lot of challenges to face regarding their faith. My answer was that anything I say whether I say it badly or perfectly is simply an attempt to free their mind and their soul. If my statements shake their faith it is meant to be shaken, and when someone is brainwashed by a system of dogma for a lifetime my statements should mean little to a true believer and would only change the views of a false believer without conviction who never took the time to examine their own beliefs realistically. (This is paraphrased I fail to remember the exact words used in the discussion on either side I only remember the concept.) Though I have not seen enough of your posts to get a grasp of your perception of God, etc - I would say that your objection with "Christianity" and what your perception of it is does not come from a discernment of what a spirit filled believer of Christ is - from those who attend a local congregation and claim adherancy to Christianity. Your objection is more with - for lack of a better word "Church-iolity". Those who's faith is in their church, or congregation - rather than Christ and his message of truth. Those of us who's faith is in Jesus through the work of the spirit do not "blindly" accept interpretations from a pulpet - unless the exegesis is complete and consistant. The problem most have with Christianity is they blindly accept what the secular media has defined as Christian denominations, and in turn they take the actions of the aberrant ones as representative of the church as a whole. For those who think that the church of Jesus - which began with the disciples - has anything to do with what goes on in ornately decorated buildings on Sunday or Saturday mornings, and is defined by such, knows little, if anything about scripture. Claiming to be a Christian does not bring one closer to God, nor does it get one to heaven. Christianity does not save anyone - Jesus does. It is only through Jesus that one gets to the heaven of scripture. So I would here in like to announce that I am not a follower of the Christianity that I see defined in these threads. I am a disciple of Jesus - not of any congregation with whatever dogma or tenants they may follow. If in chosing to become a disciple of Jesus, that has made me a "Christian", it is by my understanding of what a Christian is, not society at large. Eljay wrote and I quote: "...Claiming to be a Christian does not bring one closer to God, nor does it get one to heaven. Christianity does not save anyone - Jesus does. It is only through Jesus that one gets to the heaven of scripture...." EXACTLY. Thank You ,Eljay . |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Thu 06/12/08 10:52 AM
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Eljay wrote and I quote:
"...Claiming to be a Christian does not bring one closer to God, nor does it get one to heaven. Christianity does not save anyone - Jesus does. It is only through Jesus that one gets to the heaven of scripture...." EXACTLY. Thank You ,Eljay . TRIBO: MS - prove it? prove that believing in jesus get's you to the heaven of scriptures? and which heaven paul mention's three? don't pull out bible verses - GIVE ME PROOF!! - MS, ELJAY, spider, - anyone - ""Proof""!! actual physical proof that i can comprehend with my senses!!! pray to your jesus that he physically appear before me and reveal himself to me - just like your bible says "doubting Thomas" had the pleasure to do!! he did not believe in his ressurection - yet the bible say's the lord came to him and the others in the flesh? so pray to your jesus to do the same for me that i might believe!! and while he's here ask him to stay and have pics taken to show himself as the son of god and do miracles and healings, have him prove himself!! or if you can't do that then have your god come and prove himself!!! suspending "your" god given ability to reason and use the common sense given to you and taking something on "faith" and that alone is no more than historical cults from time immemorial have done, none could ever produce a living god to show his reality to man. |
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Eljay wrote and I quote: "...Claiming to be a Christian does not bring one closer to God, nor does it get one to heaven. Christianity does not save anyone - Jesus does. It is only through Jesus that one gets to the heaven of scripture...." EXACTLY. Thank You ,Eljay . TRIBO: MS - prove it? prove that believing in jesus get's you to the heaven of scriptures? and which heaven paul mention's three? don't pull out bible verses - GIVE ME PROOF!! - MS, ELJAY, spider, - anyone - ""Proof""!! actual physical proof that i can comprehend with my senses!!! pray to your jesus that he physically appear before me and reveal himself to me - just like your bible says "doubting Thomas" had the pleasure to do!! he did not believe in his ressurection - yet the bible say's the lord came to him and the others in the flesh? so pray to your jesus to do the same for me that i might believe!! and while he's here ask him to stay and have pics taken to show himself as the son of god and do miracles and healings, have him prove himself!! or if you can't do that then have your god come and prove himself!!! suspending "your" god given ability to reason and use the common sense given to you and taking something on "faith" and that alone is no more than historical cults from time immemorial have done, none could ever produce a living god to show his reality to man. Tribo I don't understand all your exclimation points. They imply that you are upset. Eljay said "It is only through Jesus that one gets to the HEAVEN OF SCRIPTURE". You don't believe in the God of scripture so logic would tell me that you wouldn't care if you couldn't get into the heaven of said God nevermind the fact that Jesus is the only way there. Please explain to me why this statement upsets you. BTW - I'm done with my temper tantrum....How are you today?
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Edited by
tribo
on
Thu 06/12/08 11:58 AM
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cherub:
Tribo I don't understand all your exclimation points. They imply that you are upset. Eljay said "It is only through Jesus that one gets to the HEAVEN OF SCRIPTURE". You don't believe in the God of scripture so logic would tell me that you wouldn't care if you couldn't get into the heaven of said God nevermind the fact that Jesus is the only way there. Please explain to me why this statement upsets you. BTW - I'm done with my temper tantrum....How are you today? hahahaha - im fine cherub, my lady this is why i write what i write - no one is ever going to know the truth of any religion through "faith" Faith is the suspending of one's resoning power's to draw conclusion's from or deduce from actual fact's whether something is worth having faith in or not. Without "fact's" that something is even worth looking into or believing it, all points of debate or discussion are folly at best. All these discussions here are using the writing's "within" as the starting point for the bible - the bible ends with genisis chpt II - anything after that is a mute point, if the beginning is not correct ( the core assumtion) then it is vain to think you can argue for or against the remainder. which is what i see happening to a post that was taken over by things that had nothing to do with the original question's being asked. you cannot logically argue "anything" unless there is a core understanding of what any and all things the "core" is! once this is "known" then discussion can be had and conclusions drawn and arguement's both for or against can continue to a reasonalble and logical conclusion. Anything else my lady |
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I agree...kinda. There is no point in building a case for faith on the Bible if you cannot prove the bible to be fact. In order to use the Bible as evidence you must either prove it or only use it to SUPPORT fact.
Coincidently - that is how I found my way back to Christianity. A few years ago, I ran across some reading material that claimed that the Bible is the oldest authentic document. That caught my interest so I did a little bit of studying and ended up taking a class. I wish I still had those books. I passed them on to someone else years ago. They would come in handy right about now.
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I agree...kinda. There is no point in building a case for faith on the Bible if you cannot prove the bible to be fact. In order to use the Bible as evidence you must either prove it or only use it to SUPPORT fact.
Coincidently - that is how I found my way back to Christianity. A few years ago, I ran across some reading material that claimed that the Bible is the oldest authentic document. That caught my interest so I did a little bit of studying and ended up taking a class. I wish I still had those books. I passed them on to someone else years ago. They would come in handy right about now. tribo: hahaha - hmmm - i belive the hammiribi code is older and others also but like you i have none of that info any more ill look that up it does not sound correct to me later gator
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I agree...kinda. There is no point in building a case for faith on the Bible if you cannot prove the bible to be fact. In order to use the Bible as evidence you must either prove it or only use it to SUPPORT fact. Coincidently - that is how I found my way back to Christianity. A few years ago, I ran across some reading material that claimed that the Bible is the oldest authentic document. That caught my interest so I did a little bit of studying and ended up taking a class. I wish I still had those books. I passed them on to someone else years ago. They would come in handy right about now. tribo: hahaha - hmmm - i belive the hammiribi code is older and others also but like you i have none of that info any more ill look that up it does not sound correct to me later gator ok i sent it to your email on here - to long to post but you may if you want to - smiles |
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Edited by
Blackbird
on
Thu 06/12/08 12:29 PM
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I agree...kinda. There is no point in building a case for faith on the Bible if you cannot prove the bible to be fact. In order to use the Bible as evidence you must either prove it or only use it to SUPPORT fact. Coincidently - that is how I found my way back to Christianity. A few years ago, I ran across some reading material that claimed that the Bible is the oldest authentic document. That caught my interest so I did a little bit of studying and ended up taking a class. I wish I still had those books. I passed them on to someone else years ago. They would come in handy right about now. I believe the information is competely outlandish. It is accurate however to say that the bible is the oldest mass produced Volume although it's authenticity was called into question rather than people from other faiths, but by the church that propogated it...long story nothing against Christianity here just a problem with RCC methods. What made the Bible Significant? The Guttenberg Press. False statements lead to false revelation, and myth that can blow up in your face. The Bible is one of the most significant books outside of Faith, because it was so loved that someone mass printed it as the first mass printed Volume. Actually in light of recent discussions or problems with recent discussions for those Christians still interested and reading I have a challenge for you. Since the Bible is such an icon of the Christian faith followed, maybe it's a good time for anyone who has not done so to guinely study the history of the bible, how it was pieced together, propogated, and even if you don't remember take a look at the number of versions. Since it's your spiritual herritage it may make for an interesting history lesson for some of you. |
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I agree...kinda. There is no point in building a case for faith on the Bible if you cannot prove the bible to be fact. In order to use the Bible as evidence you must either prove it or only use it to SUPPORT fact. Coincidently - that is how I found my way back to Christianity. A few years ago, I ran across some reading material that claimed that the Bible is the oldest authentic document. That caught my interest so I did a little bit of studying and ended up taking a class. I wish I still had those books. I passed them on to someone else years ago. They would come in handy right about now. I believe the information is competely outlandish. It is accurate however to say that the bible is the oldest mass produced Volume although it's authenticity was called into question rather than people from other faiths, but by the church that propogated it...long story nothing against Christianity here just a problem with RCC methods. What made the Bible Significant? The Guttenberg Press. False statements lead to false revelation, and myth that can blow up in your face. The Bible is one of the most significant books outside of Faith, because it was so loved that someone mass printed it as the first mass printed Volume. Actually in light of recent discussions or problems with recent discussions for those Christians still interested and reading I have a challenge for you. Since the Bible is such an icon of the Christian faith followed, maybe it's a good time for anyone who has not done so to guinely study the history of the bible, how it was pieced together, propogated, and even if you don't remember take a look at the number of versions. Since it's your spiritual herritage it may make for an interesting history lesson for some of you. tribo: here just a problem with RCC methods - ????? forgive my ignorance BB - not familiar with RCC - ??? |
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I agree...kinda. There is no point in building a case for faith on the Bible if you cannot prove the bible to be fact. In order to use the Bible as evidence you must either prove it or only use it to SUPPORT fact. Coincidently - that is how I found my way back to Christianity. A few years ago, I ran across some reading material that claimed that the Bible is the oldest authentic document. That caught my interest so I did a little bit of studying and ended up taking a class. I wish I still had those books. I passed them on to someone else years ago. They would come in handy right about now. I believe the information is competely outlandish. It is accurate however to say that the bible is the oldest mass produced Volume although it's authenticity was called into question rather than people from other faiths, but by the church that propogated it...long story nothing against Christianity here just a problem with RCC methods. What made the Bible Significant? The Guttenberg Press. False statements lead to false revelation, and myth that can blow up in your face. The Bible is one of the most significant books outside of Faith, because it was so loved that someone mass printed it as the first mass printed Volume. Actually in light of recent discussions or problems with recent discussions for those Christians still interested and reading I have a challenge for you. Since the Bible is such an icon of the Christian faith followed, maybe it's a good time for anyone who has not done so to guinely study the history of the bible, how it was pieced together, propogated, and even if you don't remember take a look at the number of versions. Since it's your spiritual herritage it may make for an interesting history lesson for some of you. tribo: here just a problem with RCC methods - ????? forgive my ignorance BB - not familiar with RCC - ??? already done that long time ago thoughif i was interested enoug i would brush up - but i'm not - you are reffering to all the bibles like the bishop's bible and forerunners of the KJV correct? |
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It is accurate however to say that the bible is the oldest mass produced Volume although it's authenticity was called into question rather than people from other faiths, but by the church that propogated it...long story nothing against Christianity here just a problem with RCC methods. What made the Bible Significant? The Guttenberg Press. False statements lead to false revelation, and myth that can blow up in your face. The Bible is one of the most significant books outside of Faith, because it was so loved that someone mass printed it as the first mass printed Volume. Actually in light of recent discussions or problems with recent discussions for those Christians still interested and reading I have a challenge for you. Since the Bible is such an icon of the Christian faith followed, maybe it's a good time for anyone who has not done so to guinely study the history of the bible, how it was pieced together, propogated, and even if you don't remember take a look at the number of versions. Since it's your spiritual herritage it may make for an interesting history lesson for some of you. I am willing to do that. Where do you suggest I start? |
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It is accurate however to say that the bible is the oldest mass produced Volume although it's authenticity was called into question rather than people from other faiths, but by the church that propogated it...long story nothing against Christianity here just a problem with RCC methods. What made the Bible Significant? The Guttenberg Press. False statements lead to false revelation, and myth that can blow up in your face. The Bible is one of the most significant books outside of Faith, because it was so loved that someone mass printed it as the first mass printed Volume. Actually in light of recent discussions or problems with recent discussions for those Christians still interested and reading I have a challenge for you. Since the Bible is such an icon of the Christian faith followed, maybe it's a good time for anyone who has not done so to guinely study the history of the bible, how it was pieced together, propogated, and even if you don't remember take a look at the number of versions. Since it's your spiritual herritage it may make for an interesting history lesson for some of you. I am willing to do that. Where do you suggest I start? The Muratorian Fragment (about 170 AD) http://www.bible-researcher.com/muratorian.html Irenaeus: Against Heresies (about 180 AD) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm First Council of Nicea (325 AD) http://www.fourthcentury.com/index.htm?http&&&www.fourthcentury.com/councils/nicaea325/index.htm http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html |
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