Ok Tribo and I are decidedly different people and may have very different views. In spite of this I understand a lot of what he has posted. Being opposed to mindless religious dogma and convert or kill mentaility (culturally or physically) and not believing in religion are two completely different things.

I think at times his posts have indicated frustration and disgust with certain attitudes or could be read to indicate this reglardless of his intent. The truth is I myself have been guilty of the same and the reason is simple. For a Christian the most important concept should be their personal relationship with God. This is true of almost any belief system in essense. (debate of finer points is irrevelant this is the basis of religion) Seeing someone step in between someone and "God" as if they are superior, have direct conversations with God where they are told to interfere with the spirituality of others, or implying that they themselves are superior, closer to god, or even God itself can be very disturbing and fill one with disgust.

It's nothing personal or hateful but we as humans are occasionally subject to emotion or reaction. Some of us may shudder or be filled with disgust, or anger in facing religious seperatism or cultural discrimination because we place a high value on true spirituality, the true following of belief or "God", as well as having a reverence for the Divinity of all people. I equate religious bullying to have the same significance as physical rape, because I believe that that human spirit is divine. When someone tries to take away the spiritual freedom of others, critisize it, or pressure them to change their views I believe they are attempting spiritual rape. This is by far a worse crime than physical rape itself when commited by a Christian because it is in direct opposition to everything Christ taught. It completely boggles the mind to see Christians thumping a bible talking about the joy of acceptance and Christianity while thumbing their nose at Christ who they supposedly follow.

Tribo if I presumed anything here I apologize I can only speak for myself, and voice what I see as a similarity while realizing we may well have very different views and beliefs.

no to all - as i say i believe in a creative force that does nomore no less than bring about creation or the material to eventually allow the inevitable to happen - he/it doesnot interfere with anything past that.

Because I came the realization that it can't possible be true.

I was born and raised into the religion from birth. I was a 'believer' up to and including the time I was 'saved' in my teens. By 'saved' I merely mean that I went to the altar and accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior.

I confess that I didn't fully understand precisely what they meant in terms of the actual doctrine (the actual bible). Although I had gone to bible school and was taught the biblical stories I didn't fully understand the big picture. Other than the idea that God has rules, man is disobedient, all men are sinners, and they all need to seek salvation by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and that he with then come into their lives and make a profound difference in their life.

That's basically all I was taught. I wasn't taught a perfectly logical understanding of how this all works and why it makes sense. That was deemed unnecessary. I was taught that the only thing that is required is that we accept Jesus as our Savior and HE will take care of all the details.

Fine, so I did that without asking for logical justification.

My questions concerning Christianity up to that point were purely innocent questions. I just wanted to better understand what God wants from us.



There were a tone of straws. Do I really need to point at just one of them. They all came together to produce an impossible load that broke any hope of continuing to believe in the biblical picture.

Some of them were,...

Nothing happened after I asked Jesus to come into my life. Nothing was any different. I didn't notice any profound change in my life. And I most certainly wasn't contacted by any extraterrestrial or spiritual being.

The other 'staws' came from the fact that I began to study the bible more intently after having been 'saved'. Not only did I want to better understand it for myself, but I also wanted to offer other people better explanations of God's word.

After all, even people in my very church (including preachers) would often state that there are things they just don't understand in the Bible and find hard to believe, but they just continue to have faith anyway. So I wanted to look into those things to see if I could understand them better. Perhaps I can help other people understand them better too. But what happened was that I simply saw why other people were having trouble believing certain things. They truly were incredulous and there were no explanation offered in the bible.



If I had to pick one thing, it would have to be the crucifixion of Jesus as a sacrificial lamb of God to pay for our sins via the flowing of his blood.

The question came up? Why was this necessary. Well the stupid answer is "Because men are sinful!"

But that's not meaningful answer. The real question is, "Who did this act pay for the sins of man?" Who was PAID by this act. You received PAYMENT from this human sacrifice. Who was being APPEASED?

Well, if you go back thought the bible it's the God of Abraham who demand blood sacrifices before he can forgive sins. That was already a 'straw' in its own right. Why should an all-wise and all-loving God demand blood sacrifices before he's willing to forgive sins? That has never been explained in the bible other than to suggest that his is just something that God arbitrarily chose to want to do. But why would an all-wise, all-loving God choose such an ugly act to pay for sins? Wouldn't it have been wiser to demand that men do something constructive and positive to pay for their sins. Why choose to have them slaughter animals every time they sin. What sense does that make? Why should God require that animals be slaughtered before he can forgive someone????

It makes utterly no sense to me and the bible doesn't offer a reasonable explanation for it. In fact, it makes much more sense that men would make up something like this based on superstition than it does to believe that a supreme all-loving, all-wise creator of this universe would want such an appeasement. So this got me realizing that men wrote the damn book based on their own superstitions.

Then we come back to Christ hanging on the cross and ask what he's doing there and how did he get there? Well, God sent him there specifically to be a sacrificial lamb to appease God so her can forgive men of their sins.

Yes, if I had to point to the straw that broke the camel's back this would have to be it. It's a totally hopeless situation of a God who can't forgive until he sees some animal or person being butchered.

WHAT????

God can't forgive unless someone is butchered?????

Where's the burn barrel? I need to toss this demented sadistic book away before it falls into the hands of innocent children!

It's a completely dead horse to me now. In fact, at the risk of sounding sadistic it actually appears more like a horse that has been nailed to a pole, butchered, skinned, and sold for dog food.

There's no reviving it now. The biblical picture is forever dead for me. It's utterly absurd and irreparably incredulous.

The Noah's ark story is similarly incredulous, and also relates to the story of the crucifixion indirectly. The story of Jesus claim that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son to save it". Yet in Noah's day God so hated the world that he flooded the entire place out including the entire animal kingdom. He must have really been angry.

That just another contradiction. A supposedly unchanging God who at one point in history hate the world so much he floods it out, and in another point in history he loves the world so much he has himself nailed to a pole to appease himself?

The overall story is inconsistent. And therefore the God is inconsistent and thus undependable.



Not until I had already realized that the bible can't be true. But once I knew that the bible is a false picture of our creator I did search for a better philosophy of what god might be like. I never stopped believing that I have a creator. I never stopped believing that there is a spiritual essence to my being. I simply realized that the biblical stories can't be true.

I found a picture of 'god' in pantheism. Pantheism is the view that nature herself is god. That we are all manifestations of god. There is no specific doctrine that comes with this view. There are many books written on pantheistic views though. I personally found books by Allan Watts to be inspiring. However, there are many pantheistic views. The pantheistic view is basically that we are children of the universe, and the universe is a manifestation of god. We are all children of god. We all came from god, and we all return to god. I prefer to use lowercase for the word 'god' when speaking of god in this way because the pantheistic god is not an egotistical god. God wants nothing from you, she only wants to be your servant, not the other way around. Her love is truly unconditional and she is completely forgiving with no need for any blood sacrifices.

I only use the personal pronoun 'her' because I don't want to call god an 'it'. And I also think it's fitting since we have always traditionally referred to nature as female, (i.e. Mother Nature, Mother Earth).

I am completely happy with this view of god, and in fact, I feel a true relationship with god in this way. I can feel her beneath my feet, I feel her in the wind, I feel the warm of her light when I walk in the sun. She is in everything, including you and me. She is truly omniscient and has nothing but unconditional love for everyone.

I love her.

Please note that Mark 9:40 says "The person who is not against us is for us." NOT "The person who is NOT WITH US is against us. VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION!!

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

No I'm pretty sure I am Cherub.
Your right...I shouldn't speak for Tribo...Sorry Tribo
However, I do stand behind what I said....all of it.

I understand the "be fishers of men" theology but I'm not sure that I agree with it. Even if it is valid, I STRONGLY disagree with how MOST people go about it. It has been my experience that MOST tactics end up pushing people further away from Christ rather than closer.

What is this forces purpose in creating? Is it non-thinking? If so, how does a non-thinking entity create new information? If it is thinking, why would it create? What is the purpose of the creation?

that is something i will not probably know till i no longer inhabit this flesh and something that i don't fell any "need" to know - he / it's purpose has nothing to do with my belief - i dont drive myself nuts thinking i have to know everything about anything in order to see what's what - much like christianity - you have not all the answers either yet you choose to believe - and mostly on faith not on a real understanding of who you deem your god to be- correct?

You are a strange person...you threaten other Christians to not use scripture, but you use scripture out of context.

In context, Jesus is saying that anyone who works in his name, but doesn't consider himself a Christian or a church goer is still a Christian. From the context, it is clear that Jesus is only talking about those who believe in Jesus.

Mark 38-42


Jesus makes it clear that those are are "not against us" is anyone who works in Jesus' name.

You are a strange person...you threaten other Christians to not use scripture, but you use scripture out of context.

In context, Jesus is saying that anyone who works in his name, but doesn't consider himself a Christian or a church goer is still a Christian. From the context, it is clear that Jesus is only talking about those who believe in Jesus.

Mark 38-42


Jesus makes it clear that those are are "not against us" is anyone who works in Jesus' name.

If the purpose of life is to test us, then knowing why we were created is very important. What if God does expect certain behavior from us...wouldn't that be good to know in this lifetime?

Can't you guys be a bit more considerate to those people who are at work and should be working but are reading the religious forums instead...

These posts are too long. Going to have to go back and read them when I get home...

Interesting stuff from what I have read though. Keep it up!

your correct - sorry cherub - but this thread is "not about" scripture quoting from either side - again i plead all to stay on subject - if you are not hear to answer cherub's question's as i or blackbird or abra or others then dont ruin it again by showing your "righteuosness" for your god - you believe in the power of your god and the answrering of prayers by him??? - so go pray for us to be smitten or killed or dibilitated or what ever - this is not the place for holyier than thou disvcussion or bible banging remarks - if you truly want to understand us as cherub does - the n stay listen learn - otherwise start another thread and call it " calling all christians unite against the demons." no emoticon's

That is soooo funny!! I was trying to type the same thing but you got to it first cause I am at work and they actually wanted me to work. WHAT NERVE my boss has!!!

shame on you Rathil bad boy!! your gonna go tohell for this one!!

Now I ask you with all love and respect, please do not evangelise on this thread. Thank you.

Tribo created a post titled “How Many”. He wanted to know how many were once involved in Christianity and now no longer believe or practice Christianity.

My question is…

Why did you leave?
Was there a defining moment?
Was there a straw that broke the camels back?
If so, what was it?
Did you read something other than the Bible that gave you an epiphany?

I actually requested a copy of his list when he completes it. It helps in a "religous" debate to know what side of the fence they lean on. I have learned through reading these posts for the last couple of weeks what angles to avoid in these debates. Like I said in his thread, I am not going to use Bible verses to try to convice Abra or JB that my arguement is valid. They don't believe in the Bible so it would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

I will let Tribo answer my question about weather or not he hates me but I am pretty sure his answer will be "no". I don't think he REALLY hates Christians. I think he detests the theology and the extremists that try to shove it down his throat and scare him into heaven with the hell, fire and brimestone sermons. And personally....I don't blame anyone who hates that. I am a Christian and I hate that. It serves noone, let alone Christ.

Have I got that right Tribo?

I am looking for answers to my questions. That is the only thing I am interested in discussing on this thread. Anything else is just aggravating me.