What are we drinking?

The EVIDENCE??

Changed Lives!!!!!!

Christians become NEW CREATURES in Christ!!!!

We are NOT the same as before!!!!

In other words..we are TRULY BORN AGAIN in our Spirit !!!

It is not just some blind faith with no evidence of nothing happening.....We SEE the EVIDENCE in lives taking place....and we also KNOW in our Spiirit , that Jesus IS LORD and ALL He Claims to be !!


WE KNOW!!!!
It is not some blind quessing game we are following with no proof to follow.

The Proof again.....The CHANGED LIVES Of US CHRISTIANS!!!

See....when we come to God in Faith....
Believing....
God Steps in.....and then LETS US KNOW in our Spirit...that He IS REAL!!

That is How we
KNOW that we KNOW that we KNOW...cause God thru His Holy Spirit LETS us KNOW.......and God's HOLY SPIRIT ALSO Comes to LIVE in Us Now!!!!

Hey..we Chrsitians don't need to be convinced that God's Word is True....We KNOW.....cause God thru His Holy Spirit..bears witness with our spirit, LETTING US KNOW!!!!!!

In other words....where we too at one time , were once blind....
now we SEE!!!!!!

Praying All will SEE one day too. Amen.


This was Said before...

You will NEVER reach or understand God thru LOGIC or REASONING..cause God is SPIRIT!!!

And it Takes FAITH to BELIEVE!!!

FAITH!!

Well, there you go Eljay, by your very own reasoning the Bible has to be a fraud.

It's perfectly clear that there are already different versions and interpretations of the Bible already in print. Therefore your reasoning that God would assure the accuracy of his message throughout eternity fails and thus your very assertions suggest that the Bible cannot be the word of God.

Moreover, you can't just grab one interpretation of the Bible can claim that it is this preserved word of God you are speaking of. If there are any erroneous version out there then who's to say which one is correct?

The folklore that was at the foundation of the biblical story is also at the foundation of the Quran. Both can't be true, they diverge in far too many areas. Therefore the original folklore (which would have had to have been the original word of God) was tainted and twisted long before Jesus was even born! And the mere fact that the Christians then when on to tack on a New Testament, that other religions would not recognize as being the valid word of God once again flies in the face of your assertion that God would preserve his own word throughout eternity.

Based on the reasoning that you've given here I would think that you would have to conclude that the biblical picture of God then can't possibly be true because it flies in the face of precisely what you are claiming it shouldn't fly in the face of.

I must misunderstand what you are saying here because from my point of view you've just given a reason why the Bible can't be the word of an all-powerful God.

And I would be the first to agree with this reasoning!



And then you end by claiming that the Bible comes down to personal interpretation????? With that conclusion then everyone who reads it and decides that it makes no sense must be RIGHT! Because that's what they god out of it.

With all due respect Eljay, you're not making anymore sense than the Bible makes.

By your own dismissive reasoning - the pantheistic concept of God cannot exist either.

So - without benefit of the Holy spirit to guide you in your conclusions - who's not making any sense here?

The Proof again.....The CHANGED LIVES Of CHRISTIANS!!!

The EVIDENCE??

CHANGED LIVES !!!!!!

Christians become NEW CREATURES in Christ!!!!

We are NOT the same as before!!!!

Wouldee, I had to stop reading your post at the above quote. The reason was not because I disrespect you views, but rather because what you said here does not address that I'm saying in any way. It simply and clearly shows that you misunderstand what I'm saying.

Also, your constant use of the term "churhianity" shows that you don't understand what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a book, not about what churches do with the book. I'm speaking solely to the issue of whether or not a particular book makes sense. And that's completely impendent of the views of any church. In fact, the mere fact that church as in such disagreement about what the book says only supports my view that the book it completely and entirely ambiguous.

If it wasn't so ambiguous then all churches would have precisely the same ideas when they read it.

First let me address your erroneous and completely untrue accusations that I hold that Jesus is impotent, a liar, a mirage, a fable, and a fraud.

To the point,... I'm asking whether we should believe that the Bible is true. Question,... did Jesus write anything that is in the Bible? Answer, a resounding NO! (for once we have something that is completely unambiguous!) All, scholars, clergy and religious people I've ever spoken with seem to be in unanimous agreement that Jesus did not write a single solitary word in the Bible.

Therefore it would be impossible to use the Bible to call Jesus a liar. At best, all that a person can say is that IF these words really are the words of Jesus, THEN we might be able to say that he was lying or at the very least mistaken about certain things.

For me, one epiphany that should also come out of this factual observation is that if we can't use the Bible to call Jesus a liar, then we also can't use it to claim that he was telling the truth. When we put our faith in the Bible we are not putting our faith in Jesus, we are putting our faith in the words of men who claim to speak for Jesus. Authors that we can't even be sure they were who they claim to be! The gospels could have very easily been written by committees who had an agenda. In fact, there is actually good reason to believe that they were!

So when we question the Bible, we must question the motivation of the men who may have authored it, and clearly Jesus was not one of the authors. So it would be impossible to use the Bible to claim that Jesus was a liar, or to say anything about Jesus actually, for that matter.

In fact, this very notion raises humongous questions! If Jesus really was God, then surely he would have had the insight and wisdom to know how important it would be for him to write down his own message.

There mere fact that he wrote nothing flies in the face that he was a supreme being that came to earth with a message for all mankind. Although, there are historical rumors that Jesus actually did write things down, but later, the churchianity (as you call it) didn't like what Jesus had written so they denounced it as being unauthentic and quickly disposed of it. They then went on to write their own version of what happened, and that's what we have today that we call the Bible.

When we look at the Bible as a book, clearly we can't use it to either support Jesus or denounce him directly. All we can do is ask whether the book makes any sense.

In your overzealous defense of your beliefs, you automatically view any intellectual inquiry into the Bible as a direct attack on Jesus. You are so prepared to defend this God you have created in your mind that you can't even look at the book where you got this information objectively anymore.

You're clearly in the mindset of, "DEFEND JESUS AT ALL COST!". And that's precisely what the book is asking you to do. The authors of the book have convinced you that it's not about them, it's entirely about the man they wrote about. They have taken any suspicion that might be directed toward them and they have turned into a direct attack on the martyr-God that they want you to believe in. And yes, the story of Jesus most certainly is a story of a Martyr-God. A God who voluntarily gave his own life to save all of humanity from his own judgments.

I ask if the story makes sense. You accuse me of attacking Jesus? That makes no sense Wouldee. That's just a distraction tactic to take attention away from the real questions being asked and create an imaginary diversion that God is being attacked. This is precisely what the authors of the Bible are counting on. Divert attention away from themselves and get the readers to defend the God they have created.

As to the rest of your post

The rest of your post is nothing more than a feeble attempt at assassinating the character of Abracadabra.

I did read it go back and read it however, and I'd like to respond to the following.



My pantheistic view of the true nature of our essence came along many years later. It only appears from your perspective that this is some kind of an argument between pantheism and the biblical picture. It is not.

Once I realized that the biblical picture was false I had to move forward, and that movement led me to the pantheistic view. And even so, I only use that as the simplest of ill-defined labels. I don't consider pantheism to be a religion, and denounce any religions that claim they represent "Pantheism".

Pantheism is not a definition of God but simply and understand that God cannot be defined other than to know that everything that exists is of God, and therefore is God. God is not a person sitting on a throne keeping track of who's naughty or nice so he can even cast them into hell or invite them into his mansion to play with his toys. That's simply the wrong picture of what God is. That's the biblical picture.

You also say that I'm "Bashing Christianity here". But that is not at all what I am doing. That is actually a lie being that it is untrue.

What I am doing is asking if the Bible can be true? And offering my conclusions of why it can't possibly be true. Sure, you can claim that this is Bashing Christianity because I'm questioning the very book they chose to base their religion on. But from my point of view that book is also a historical document of humanity. I am simply asking WHY it should be believed.

So now I ask you,... If there is a rock solid reason of WHY we should believe this book then why don't Christians just state it with confidence and be done with the issue? The reason they can't do this is because there IS NO REASON to believe it! Other than pure faith, which is nothing more than simply choosing to believe in it for NO REASON other than because you feel like believing in it.

My point, is that you are not placing your FAITH in God when you do this. You are placing your FAITH in a book. You are giving your FAITH over to the idea that this book knows what it's talking about and that the authors weren't ever attempting to deceive you! KEEP IN MIND ALSO that Jesus was not an author of this book!

You are placing your FAITH in a book, not in God. And my only point is that you have no reason to believe this book, and you can't even give me one that doesn't simply reduce to FAITH, that you would just personally like to believe that it's true. In SPITE of the fact that it is so ambiguous that it fell into three major parts, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, and a million different sects and denominations beyond that!

A book that is so ambiguous that even clergy can't agree on what it's saying!

That is what you are placing your FAITH in. Not God. You are placing your FAITH in the idea that this book correctly DESCRIBES God!

And your FAITH is so strong that if I question the book you claim that I'm attacking God himself!

I would never attack God, Wouldee, and the mere fact that you think that I would only goes to show that you don't know me at all. I'm not out to destroy God. Not in the least. I'm trying to get people to realize that they are worshiping a book, and not God.

But they flatly refuse to even consider looking at the book objectively. They are too busy defending it like as if it is God.

What makes you so certain that Abra does not have the "Holy spirit" guiding him?

We (humans) have been endowed with intelligence and reason for a good reason. To use it.

We have the ability to use our personal will to decide and to think for a good reason. TO THINK.

We are all endowed with the holy spirit. You seem to ask people to let go of reason in the use of right discrimination. That is folly. If all books were approached in this way it would be laughable.

JB

nope, not buying your excuses.

You clearly said that God NEVER answers.

You are not about the book, your on about God.

I only have a problem with an extremely arrogant religion that thinks it is God.

A war-mongering, God-hoarding, manmade myth that spreads hatred and rejection to anyone who doesn't believe it.

The book is the thing that is claiming to be about God Wouldee.

I’m just pointing out where the biblical picture of a God is grossly flawed.

You erroneously think that means that I’m talking about God. What I was referring to is the biblical picture of God that is described in the Bible. Not the real living God

I’m totally cool with the real living God Wouldee. I have no problems with God.

I only have a problem with an extremely arrogant religion that thinks it is God.

A war-mongering, God-hoarding, manmade myth that spreads hatred and rejection to anyone who doesn't believe it.

You see Wouldee, according to your religion, your God has a problem with me!

But I can tell you with absolutely certainty that the real living God has no problem with me or you!

In other words, you worship a hateful bigoted religion that excludes me because I won’t bow down to appease its followers.

Go ahead and condemn me to hell Wouldee, I really don’t care. Just know that it’s not God who’s doing it. It’s YOU!

Also know that your condemnation of me is entirely in your own mind and won’t have any affect on my actual existence whatsoever. However, it will have a negative affect on yours. Only because you make it so.

The real issue is that there is no reason to believe that the bible is the word of God.

I’ll accept your silence on that issue to mean that you are in agreement with it since you obviously have no rebuttal to offer.

You just don't get it.

Wouldee's favorite saying:





I'm once again.... speechless ROTFL