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| Topic: For Abra......... | |
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Edited by
Rapunzel
on
Wed 05/28/08 02:28 PM
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Cheers for enlightenment !!!   What are we drinking? hahahahaha  ...Jeannie....  we are drinking Martinelli's apple cider  and tall glasses of orange juice & peach schnapps  for those who'd like some booze... with or without the vodka....
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Wed 05/28/08 02:35 PM
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The EVIDENCE??
CHANGED LIVES !!!!!! Christians become NEW CREATURES in Christ!!!! We are NOT the same as before!!!! In other words..we are TRULY BORN AGAIN in our Spirit !!! It is not just some blind faith we are following.....with no evidence of nothing happening.....NO.....We SEE the EVIDENCE in lives taking place....and we also KNOW in our Spiirit , that Jesus IS LORD and ALL He Claims to be !!!!! WE KNOW!!!! It is not some blind quessing game we are following with no proof to follow. The Proof again.....The CHANGED LIVES Of US CHRISTIANS!!! See....when we come to God in Faith.... Believing.... God Steps in.....and then LETS US KNOW in our Spirit...that He IS REAL!! That is How we KNOW that we KNOW that we KNOW...cause God thru His Holy Spirit LETS us KNOW.......and God's HOLY SPIRIT ALSO Comes to LIVE in Us Now!!!! Hey..we Chrsitians don't need to be Convinced that God's Word is True....We KNOW.....cause God thru His Holy Spirit..Bears Witness with our spirit, LETTING US KNOW!!!!!! In other words....where we too at one time , were once BlIND.... WE NOW SEE!!!!!! Praying All will SEE one day too.... Amen. This was Said before... You will NEVER Reach or Understand God thru LOGIC or REASONING..cause God is SPIRIT!!! And it Takes FAITH to BELIEVE!!! FAITH!!  And When One takes that Step of FAITH to BELIEVE and RECIEVE JESUS..that WONDERFUL FREE GIFT OF GRACE GIVEN FOR US?? Hey...God Will NOT NOT NOT Leave You in the Dark...Still QUESSING...... Once You Recieve Him and Beleive By Faith!!! No!!! God WILL Make Himself KNOWN to You...When You Believe and Recieve by FAITH !!! ALSO..... God ...Thru His Holy Spirit....WILL Come to LIVE in You Now!!!!!!! THAT'S HOW WE CHRISTIANS KNOW........THAT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE IS TRUE.......AND GOD'S WORD IS TRUE....CAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT LIVING IN US NOW, LET'S LET'S LET'S US KNOW!!!!!!!! WE KNOW!!!!! |
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We, the true aliens of the Confederacy, support our wrongly imprisioned Dark Lord. As we speak our teams, comprised of millions of the best scientific minds that the Confederacy has to offer, are working on a way to disable the force-field to Xenu's cage. The rebirth of our Master is at hand. We will crush all who oppose us. Our number is many, our power is great. Soon the world will know the truth about our Dark Lord and Master.
HAIL XENU! |
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Edited by
Rapunzel
on
Wed 05/28/08 02:28 PM
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The EVIDENCE?? Changed Lives!!!!!! Christians become NEW CREATURES in Christ!!!! We are NOT the same as before!!!! In other words..we are TRULY BORN AGAIN in our Spirit !!! It is not just some blind faith with no evidence of nothing happening.....We SEE the EVIDENCE in lives taking place....and we also KNOW in our Spiirit , that Jesus IS LORD and ALL He Claims to be !! WE KNOW!!!! It is not some blind quessing game we are following with no proof to follow. The Proof again.....The CHANGED LIVES Of US CHRISTIANS!!! See....when we come to God in Faith.... Believing.... God Steps in.....and then LETS US KNOW in our Spirit...that He IS REAL!! That is How we KNOW that we KNOW that we KNOW...cause God thru His Holy Spirit LETS us KNOW.......and God's HOLY SPIRIT ALSO Comes to LIVE in Us Now!!!! Hey..we Chrsitians don't need to be convinced that God's Word is True....We KNOW.....cause God thru His Holy Spirit..bears witness with our spirit, LETTING US KNOW!!!!!! In other words....where we too at one time , were once blind.... now we SEE!!!!!! Praying All will SEE one day too. Amen. This was Said before... You will NEVER reach or understand God thru LOGIC or REASONING..cause God is SPIRIT!!! And it Takes FAITH to BELIEVE!!! FAITH!! That is it, 100 % Dear Morning Song "For we are saved by faith and not by works  lest any man should boast"  Today has been a beautiful day sharing in the love of God... My neighbors see the light in me and emanating from me... & it is not of my own power! but, it is my choice ... i choose to be a vessel of the Most High God... for the Holy Spirit to work in me... and through me... I am still a Masterpiece in progress, so please don't expect perfection... Love & blessings & enlightenment to all
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Eljay wrote: Then it would stand to reason that the God of the scriptures would be perfectly capable of not only moving men to write the bible, exactly how he wished it - but would have the power - as well - to assure it's accuracy throughout eternity. And to assure that his message be accurately interpreted Well, there you go Eljay, by your very own reasoning the Bible has to be a fraud. It's perfectly clear that there are already different versions and interpretations of the Bible already in print. Therefore your reasoning that God would assure the accuracy of his message throughout eternity fails and thus your very assertions suggest that the Bible cannot be the word of God. Moreover, you can't just grab one interpretation of the Bible can claim that it is this preserved word of God you are speaking of. If there are any erroneous version out there then who's to say which one is correct? The folklore that was at the foundation of the biblical story is also at the foundation of the Quran. Both can't be true, they diverge in far too many areas. Therefore the original folklore (which would have had to have been the original word of God) was tainted and twisted long before Jesus was even born! And the mere fact that the Christians then when on to tack on a New Testament, that other religions would not recognize as being the valid word of God once again flies in the face of your assertion that God would preserve his own word throughout eternity. Based on the reasoning that you've given here I would think that you would have to conclude that the biblical picture of God then can't possibly be true because it flies in the face of precisely what you are claiming it shouldn't fly in the face of. I must misunderstand what you are saying here because from my point of view you've just given a reason why the Bible can't be the word of an all-powerful God. And I would be the first to agree with this reasoning! Therefore I would think that the issue lies not in how the bible was written, but as to how it is read. How does one know that what they think they have understood when they read it - was how God intended it to be understood when it was written? And then you end by claiming that the Bible comes down to personal interpretation????? With that conclusion then everyone who reads it and decides that it makes no sense must be RIGHT! Because that's what they god out of it. With all due respect Eljay, you're not making anymore sense than the Bible makes.  Abra; You are basing your argument on the various translations of the scripture that exist today. Be it NIV, King James, Am. Standard. That does not support an argument of innerrancy of scripture. The original bible was not written in english. However - what may I ask have you discovered has changed in the message from the originals of arabaic and latin - to the gospel message of today's english version? Where is this drastic change and when did it occur? So your argument is flawed, as your shifting the criteria. And accurate interpretation of the scripture is not left to man alone. Scripture itself says that without the Holy Spirit to guide man, he is incapable of understanding the truth's of God. So naturally the bible appears contradictory to those who are incapable of correctly interpreting it. It essentially comes down to motivation - or intent. With scripture, you get exactly what you hope for. If one seeks to understand it and asks God for the Holy spirit in which to do so - he freely gives. However, if one's intent is to find flaws with it - well, it's easy to find flaws in that which is not understood. This is precisely your statement to anyone who finds flaws with "evolution". They lack what is necessary to understand it - or so you've stated a bit more elaborately time and time again. Were you as familar with scripture as you claim to be - this concept would be more than clear to you. So - without benefit of the Holy spirit to guide you in your conclusions - who's not making any sense here? |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 05/28/08 02:35 PM
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Eljay,
I can see from your response to my response that there are several gross misinterpretations in our communication that might take a long while to sort out into specifics. I'm not sure I understand you or that you have understood me, so I will attempt to start over. You may well be correct in stating that by my criteria no god can "exist," at least within the confines of what you conceive as a god because your conception of "a god" or "God" is some all powerful creator being / personality on a throne in heaven who knows everything, sees everything and and is everywhere and gets personally involved with humans on the planet earth. I don't know if you believe in this description of God or not, but it does not match the Biblical "profile" of the God of Abraham depicted in the stories told, who had to enlist Joshua's army to conquer the promised land and convince them to kill all the people there. I would not think that an all powerful and all knowing God would have the need to engage in these primitive warlike activities on the third planet from a very small sun in an average galaxy among billions of galaxies in a massive universe. It just seems trivial and petty for the creator of all of that. But hey, that's just my opinion. By your own dismissive reasoning - the pantheistic concept of God cannot exist either. That is a very excellent point of which I have given a lot of thought to myself as I tried to decide to call myself atheist, agnostic or pantheist. I think you are right about that if your idea of a god is a being who is separate from its creation and reigns as ruler of all that is. You might even be right about that even if that entity cannot be located anywhere within this great body we call our universe. I find it quite difficult to grasp that a single entity knows and creates and rules over the vastness of everything that exists and I tend to think that there are an infinite number of entities who do that, and that they are all connected to each other. So it is not an argument over who's is the real god or if god EXISTS. I'm totally lost in the argument about the Bible. Personally I find it impossible to believe anyone would make the claim that it is the infallible word of a god and it seems even more unreasonable to me that anyone would attempt to prove that it is true and accurate in very detail. I would find that activity as much of a waste of time as counting grains of sand on a beach. Thank you for helping me clarify my own question about the idea of the existence of a pantheistic god. I don't think, if you were able to search for one, that you would find the entity in charge. Perhaps it's an elected office that changes every few ages... JB |
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So - without benefit of the Holy spirit to guide you in your conclusions - who's not making any sense here? What makes you so certain that Abra does not have the "Holy spirit" guiding him? We (humans) have been endowed with intelligence and reason for a good reason. To use it. We have the ability to use our personal will to decide and to think for a good reason. TO THINK. We are all endowed with the holy spirit. You seem to ask people to let go of reason in the use of right discrimination. That is folly. If all books were approached in this way it would be laughable. JB |
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The Proof again.....The CHANGED LIVES Of CHRISTIANS!!! Yes MorningSong this is a good thing. And I'm seriously not out to burst anyone's bubbles. That's for sure! In fact, I was just telling one of my girlfriends the other day that people who need religion in this way should be out picking daisies instead of being on a religion discussion forum. However, I can see the problem here. The people (people like yourself) want to give testament to the power of belief, and I truly do not wish to get in the way of that. I truly don't. But at the same time this is precisely what it is as far as I'm concerned. You call it "Proof that the bible is true", but it's not proof that the bible is true at all. It's simply proof that people who find something to believe in feel better about themselves. And even if they do have a spiritual epiphany it doesn't mean that the biblical story is true. Don't forget MorningSong, you're talking to a person who believe in the spiritual nature of our essences. I don't discount God. All I'm saying is that the biblical story of God can't be true. In fact, I've heard Christians give testimonies of incredulous things that happened in their lives. What did they do after that experience? They run off to the nearest CHURCH THEY COULD FIND! Why???? If I had a spiritual experience, that's not going to send me running off to a Christian church. I think far too many people associate Christianity with God in our culture. So if they have any reason at all to believe in God they automatically run off to seek a Christian church. I’ve often asked people why they do this and the will usually say, “Well where else would I run to?” However, if you've been reading these forums, MorningSong, you will have noticed that people have given testament to having CHANGED LIVES by waking up to the fact that they had been duped by the Christian religion. Their revelations and epiphanies were just as real for them! I think all religions, and even atheists could claim to have CHANGED LIVES due to beliefs and epiphanies even if the epiphany was that they are responsible for their own life! Moreover, if you're actually shooting for the 'proof factor' it just isn't there. There are far too many Christians who are constantly posting prayer requests for impossible situations, they often speak about how difficult it is to keep the faith, and how they stumble and fall all the time. If having God in their lives is so totally "enlightening" then why are they constantly groping in the dark? The only way this could be held up as any kind of 'proof' is if all Christians were experiencing total nirvana all the time. And all non-Christians were miserable. That's far from what we actually see. In fact, Christian families, and relationships, statistically don't stand out at all, they totally fall within the norm of problems, disappointments and disillusionments of everyone else. So in all honestly it's no "evidence" at all concerning the observation of lives being changed. The only 'evidence' we have for sure is that people who believe in the Bible can sometimes be extremely radical and irrational in their claims. The evidence you claim for changed lives just isn't there. People from all walks of life will tell you of epiphanies that they have had. Christianity holds no special place in that arena I'm sorry to have to tell you.
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 05/28/08 03:04 PM
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The EVIDENCE?? CHANGED LIVES !!!!!! Christians become NEW CREATURES in Christ!!!! We are NOT the same as before!!!! A changed life can happen with any new enlightenment. It is evidence of enlightenment but it is not evidence that points to any particular religion. When you finally know who you truly are then you will know God. I used to think I knew something. No.... I was like you, I KNEW I KNEW. What folly to think such things. I have more faith than you Morningsong. I have faith enough to open my eyes and use the reason and intelligence I have been endowed with and to actually think about other possibilities. JB |
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But according to your works, now, you are bashing the whole dismissively as a myth ; in that you hold that Jesus is impotent, a liar, a mirage, a fable, and a fraud Wouldee, I had to stop reading your post at the above quote. The reason was not because I disrespect you views, but rather because what you said here does not address that I'm saying in any way. It simply and clearly shows that you misunderstand what I'm saying. Also, your constant use of the term "churhianity" shows that you don't understand what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a book, not about what churches do with the book. I'm speaking solely to the issue of whether or not a particular book makes sense. And that's completely impendent of the views of any church. In fact, the mere fact that church as in such disagreement about what the book says only supports my view that the book it completely and entirely ambiguous. If it wasn't so ambiguous then all churches would have precisely the same ideas when they read it. First let me address your erroneous and completely untrue accusations that I hold that Jesus is impotent, a liar, a mirage, a fable, and a fraud. To the point,... I'm asking whether we should believe that the Bible is true. Question,... did Jesus write anything that is in the Bible? Answer, a resounding NO! (for once we have something that is completely unambiguous!) All, scholars, clergy and religious people I've ever spoken with seem to be in unanimous agreement that Jesus did not write a single solitary word in the Bible. Therefore it would be impossible to use the Bible to call Jesus a liar. At best, all that a person can say is that IF these words really are the words of Jesus, THEN we might be able to say that he was lying or at the very least mistaken about certain things. For me, one epiphany that should also come out of this factual observation is that if we can't use the Bible to call Jesus a liar, then we also can't use it to claim that he was telling the truth. When we put our faith in the Bible we are not putting our faith in Jesus, we are putting our faith in the words of men who claim to speak for Jesus. Authors that we can't even be sure they were who they claim to be! The gospels could have very easily been written by committees who had an agenda. In fact, there is actually good reason to believe that they were! So when we question the Bible, we must question the motivation of the men who may have authored it, and clearly Jesus was not one of the authors. So it would be impossible to use the Bible to claim that Jesus was a liar, or to say anything about Jesus actually, for that matter. In fact, this very notion raises humongous questions! If Jesus really was God, then surely he would have had the insight and wisdom to know how important it would be for him to write down his own message. There mere fact that he wrote nothing flies in the face that he was a supreme being that came to earth with a message for all mankind. Although, there are historical rumors that Jesus actually did write things down, but later, the churchianity (as you call it) didn't like what Jesus had written so they denounced it as being unauthentic and quickly disposed of it. They then went on to write their own version of what happened, and that's what we have today that we call the Bible. When we look at the Bible as a book, clearly we can't use it to either support Jesus or denounce him directly. All we can do is ask whether the book makes any sense. In your overzealous defense of your beliefs, you automatically view any intellectual inquiry into the Bible as a direct attack on Jesus. You are so prepared to defend this God you have created in your mind that you can't even look at the book where you got this information objectively anymore. You're clearly in the mindset of, "DEFEND JESUS AT ALL COST!". And that's precisely what the book is asking you to do. The authors of the book have convinced you that it's not about them, it's entirely about the man they wrote about. They have taken any suspicion that might be directed toward them and they have turned into a direct attack on the martyr-God that they want you to believe in. And yes, the story of Jesus most certainly is a story of a Martyr-God. A God who voluntarily gave his own life to save all of humanity from his own judgments. I ask if the story makes sense. You accuse me of attacking Jesus? That makes no sense Wouldee. That's just a distraction tactic to take attention away from the real questions being asked and create an imaginary diversion that God is being attacked. This is precisely what the authors of the Bible are counting on. Divert attention away from themselves and get the readers to defend the God they have created. As to the rest of your post The rest of your post is nothing more than a feeble attempt at assassinating the character of Abracadabra. I did read it go back and read it however, and I'd like to respond to the following. Bashing Christian thought because it has not been suitably answered for by God on your terms creates a dilemma by virtue of your pantheistic stance which is completely hypocritical for you to have engaged in and entertained, based on the methods you employed to utterly diregard Christian thought altogether by virtue of your own judgement, and not God's, which is the point of the teaching, not the one that you had assumed for it. My pantheistic view of the true nature of our essence came along many years later. It only appears from your perspective that this is some kind of an argument between pantheism and the biblical picture. It is not. Once I realized that the biblical picture was false I had to move forward, and that movement led me to the pantheistic view. And even so, I only use that as the simplest of ill-defined labels. I don't consider pantheism to be a religion, and denounce any religions that claim they represent "Pantheism". Pantheism is not a definition of God but simply and understand that God cannot be defined other than to know that everything that exists is of God, and therefore is God. God is not a person sitting on a throne keeping track of who's naughty or nice so he can even cast them into hell or invite them into his mansion to play with his toys. That's simply the wrong picture of what God is. That's the biblical picture. You also say that I'm "Bashing Christianity here". But that is not at all what I am doing. That is actually a lie being that it is untrue. What I am doing is asking if the Bible can be true? And offering my conclusions of why it can't possibly be true. Sure, you can claim that this is Bashing Christianity because I'm questioning the very book they chose to base their religion on. But from my point of view that book is also a historical document of humanity. I am simply asking WHY it should be believed. So now I ask you,... If there is a rock solid reason of WHY we should believe this book then why don't Christians just state it with confidence and be done with the issue? The reason they can't do this is because there IS NO REASON to believe it! Other than pure faith, which is nothing more than simply choosing to believe in it for NO REASON other than because you feel like believing in it. My point, is that you are not placing your FAITH in God when you do this. You are placing your FAITH in a book. You are giving your FAITH over to the idea that this book knows what it's talking about and that the authors weren't ever attempting to deceive you! KEEP IN MIND ALSO that Jesus was not an author of this book! You are placing your FAITH in a book, not in God. And my only point is that you have no reason to believe this book, and you can't even give me one that doesn't simply reduce to FAITH, that you would just personally like to believe that it's true. In SPITE of the fact that it is so ambiguous that it fell into three major parts, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, and a million different sects and denominations beyond that! A book that is so ambiguous that even clergy can't agree on what it's saying! That is what you are placing your FAITH in. Not God. You are placing your FAITH in the idea that this book correctly DESCRIBES God! And your FAITH is so strong that if I question the book you claim that I'm attacking God himself! I would never attack God, Wouldee, and the mere fact that you think that I would only goes to show that you don't know me at all. I'm not out to destroy God. Not in the least. I'm trying to get people to realize that they are worshiping a book, and not God. But they flatly refuse to even consider looking at the book objectively. They are too busy defending it like as if it is God. abra. nope, not buying your excuses. You clearly said that God NEVER answers. You are not about the book, your on about God. I just didn't read past the first bit. No need to. You are changing the subject to aviod dealking with it all. It's cool. You know where I am coming from. I know where you are coming from. But you changing the subject and then my addressing that change equal to the rest will only get more of the same. hypocritical excuses that do not add up. Too bad , too. peace.
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So - without benefit of the Holy spirit to guide you in your conclusions - who's not making any sense here? What makes you so certain that Abra does not have the "Holy spirit" guiding him? We (humans) have been endowed with intelligence and reason for a good reason. To use it. We have the ability to use our personal will to decide and to think for a good reason. TO THINK. We are all endowed with the holy spirit. You seem to ask people to let go of reason in the use of right discrimination. That is folly. If all books were approached in this way it would be laughable. JB nope. no one is endowqed wu-ith the Holy Spirit as an inherent prerequisite of life. That stands against what Jesus said, and quite frankly, the whole ida of the Holy Spirit was never inherent until Christ came and left. It happened upon prophets of the Lord for instruction guidance and insight for the children of Abraham only, in priory. You can't just seize the Holy Spirit as an answer for spiritual anarchy and random influence. Such randomness and anarchy is not separate, therefore not holy, which is what that means by the way. peace. 
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 05/28/08 05:41 PM
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Whatever wouldee. You are entitled to your faith and your opinion and I am entitled to mine.
I am perfectly at peace with mine. JB |
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I know that.
and you are very humorous too peace.
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The cow says...... eat mor chikin.
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nope, not buying your excuses. You clearly said that God NEVER answers. You are not about the book, your on about God. The book is the thing that is claiming to be about God Wouldee. I’m just pointing out where the biblical picture of a God is grossly flawed. You erroneously think that means that I’m talking about God. What I was referring to is the biblical picture of God that is described in the Bible. Not the real living God I’m totally cool with the real living God Wouldee. I have no problems with God. I only have a problem with an extremely arrogant religion that thinks it is God. A war-mongering, God-hoarding, manmade myth that spreads hatred and rejection to anyone who doesn't believe it. You see Wouldee, according to your religion, your God has a problem with me! But I can tell you with absolutely certainty that the real living God has no problem with me or you! In other words, you worship a hateful bigoted religion that excludes me because I won’t bow down to appease its followers. Go ahead and condemn me to hell Wouldee, I really don’t care. Just know that it’s not God who’s doing it. It’s YOU! Also know that your condemnation of me is entirely in your own mind and won’t have any affect on my actual existence whatsoever. However, it will have a negative affect on yours. Only because you make it so. The real issue is that there is no reason to believe that the bible is the word of God. I’ll accept your silence on that issue to mean that you are in agreement with it since you obviously have no rebuttal to offer. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 05/28/08 06:23 PM
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I only have a problem with an extremely arrogant religion that thinks it is God. A war-mongering, God-hoarding, manmade myth that spreads hatred and rejection to anyone who doesn't believe it. I'm speechless. ROTFL  |
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nope, not buying your excuses. You clearly said that God NEVER answers. You are not about the book, your on about God. The book is the thing that is claiming to be about God Wouldee. I’m just pointing out where the biblical picture of a God is grossly flawed. You erroneously think that means that I’m talking about God. What I was referring to is the biblical picture of God that is described in the Bible. Not the real living God I’m totally cool with the real living God Wouldee. I have no problems with God. I only have a problem with an extremely arrogant religion that thinks it is God. A war-mongering, God-hoarding, manmade myth that spreads hatred and rejection to anyone who doesn't believe it. You see Wouldee, according to your religion, your God has a problem with me! But I can tell you with absolutely certainty that the real living God has no problem with me or you! In other words, you worship a hateful bigoted religion that excludes me because I won’t bow down to appease its followers. Go ahead and condemn me to hell Wouldee, I really don’t care. Just know that it’s not God who’s doing it. It’s YOU! Also know that your condemnation of me is entirely in your own mind and won’t have any affect on my actual existence whatsoever. However, it will have a negative affect on yours. Only because you make it so. The real issue is that there is no reason to believe that the bible is the word of God. I’ll accept your silence on that issue to mean that you are in agreement with it since you obviously have no rebuttal to offer. You make assumptions all the time. That's nothing new. you are lost. You haven't a clue about me, actually. Your opinion of me is your own muse and it is ludicrous.  You imagine things, abra. none of what you suppose of my judgements is in the ball park. You just don't get it. But, believe your imaginary excuses for the way things are if it helps you cope. I see what you say, and I see how you change things to duck out. Ducking out on me is a new one. Don't get too carried away with yourself, it is only going to lead you further from lucidity. But I do recognize that I am fast becoming a new infatuation of yours. It's amusing, but I am not flattered, abra. Just a thought....God doesn't have the problem, abra, you do.... ...with God. How you twist it, is cleverly disguised, but I got this. And you know it. tag, your it, I guess. |
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Wouldee's favorite saying: You just don't get it. I'm once again.... speechless ROTFL
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Wouldee's favorite saying: You just don't get it. I'm once again.... speechless ROTFL Speechless? Where did I put that defibrillator? I feel the need for a jump start.
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one of my pet peeves is repeating myself. I'll work on that. |
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