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| Topic: The Christian Challenge (long and boring) | |
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the 'free will' part of that is what allows us to choose to believe and accept God's word or not. That is not free will. It is more like extortion. It states this: Believe this, or spend eternity in Hell. You only have two choices here. Believe or not believe. And if you chose not to believe, you will spend eternity in Hell. That is not freedom of choice. That is not free will. That is extortion. JB If you have any choices, you have free will. I can't believe that you really want to have this pointless argument again. Just stick to the accepted definitions, okay? Don't try to make up your own or use one made up by some guru. Choice = free will. Period. That's all there is to it. Drop it like it's hot, okay? So you are saying that if you only have two choices, that is free will? Believe or Burn in Hell. Having only these two choices is not free will. Besides, any decision is one that is made under duress and is not valid. This is not the "accepted definition" of free will. But if you think it is, then think it is, but I am not going to accept it or "stick to it" as you suggest. You are free to disagree, but I will not accept this assertion. JB |
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I disagree. It IS free will. God gives you the choice. He has left evidence all over the world of his existence including the world itself. He has given us scientists that have set out to disprove his existence time and again but have only managed prove his existence more frequently than disprove. If that isn't proof enough he has given you a book called the Bible for you to believe or disbelieve. Your choice. God is a gentleman. If you choose not to believe in him, he doesn't force himself. He will simply step aside and wait patiently for you to change your mind. Oh but I do believe in God. I never said I did not. It is the "Born again" Christian doctrine that I do not accept and that I have been told I will burn in Hell for not believing in. Free will is free will in every single thought deed and action we make. It not just two choices which claim that you will believe this or burn in Hell. That is my opinion. JB |
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Believe or Burn in Hell are not your options. Your options are Believe or Don't Believe. Period. The Burn in Hell part only comes in if you believe and then turn your back on him.
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Tue 05/13/08 02:41 PM
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I have to say very very personally that it would be vert selfish of me saying that just and only just christian will be saved. I can't comprehend an idea of God who is going to punish with eternal hell let's say african people who have never had contact with the Lord. They are not at guilt. And those who know the Lord but deny Him. Well the Lord Himself asks forgiveness for them in the cross because they don't know what they are doing. This is my very personal point of view I'm not talking for any other christian or christian denomination whatsoever. Walker...God NEVER sends anyone to hell!! NEVER!! We send ourselves there by rejecting Jesus ! BUT.....God will give man every opportunity to HEAR about the Lord Jesus , and to Recieve Jesus as thier Lord !! And those that have not heard? God will NOT hold them accountable(like babies for instance).... But I believe God will still even reach those somehow, who have not had opportunity to hear about Jesus thier Saviour. God STILL will reach them somehow...even in the last hour ...even thru sending ministering angels if neccessary......but God WILL SOMEHOW, see to it that every man HEARS!! And then the decision is left up to every man to recieve or not recieve Jesus into their heart as their Saviour!! Walker....again.... God is NOT going to send millions to hell..cause again God doesn't send ANY to Hell.... man sends himself there..by rejecting Jesus the Saviour sent for all mankind !! BUT... gonna share something else here....I have known atheists, who have accepted Jesus on their death beds!!! And what I am saying here is..... a lot of people PROTEST against ACCEPTING JESUS NOW, as their Saviour and Lord...but one day they WILL Recieve Him..they just don't know that yet..and God is very patient. Right now they are rejecting Jesus cause they just don't quite undestand yet.... But again..God is Patient. But for SOME out there ...God is dealing with You RIGHT NOW..and NOW is the Time for Salvation for You..Do NOT Reject HIM anymore..cause this is youor opportunity to ACCEPT Jesus ...NOW....not tomorrow. TODAY is the Day of Salvation!! And You know WHO you are . BUT......for those whom God reaches out to..even at the last minute? Even on their deathbed? And they still WON'T recieve Jesus, even Then... in their last dyingg breath??? Then THOSE are the ones God is talking about going to hell. Cause if someone rejects Jesus.....EVEN in thier last breath ....then Jesus CAN'T go against his WORD and suddenlly change his WORD..just to save that one who is rejecting Him now...even on his deathbed!! Comprende? BUT .. I bet there are VERY FEW who will reject Christ, right before they die. But why WAIT that Long? Point is.......although some people may protest against Jesus NOW..but one day they will recieve..casue the Word WILL become CLEAR to them ...about Jesus as Lord....but they are just not understanding right now..that's all. But GOD AIN'T done with them!! I truly believe ....that most people before they leave this world, will have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Cause God Will give them chance after chance to Hear..and One day, it just sinks in. Amen? Point is... MOST people will eventually accept Jesus. They just don't know it yet. |
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If you don't receive Jesus Christ and become a born again Christian, then you will sadly burn in Hellfire for all eternity This above statement is the bottom line for the "Born again" Christians. This is what they promote as truth and this is what they believe. They also state this: There are a few things you must know to be saved: 1. You are a sinner under the condemnation of God's Law (Romans 3:10,23). 2. You are GUILTY, and deserve to go to Hellfire as punishment for your sins (Romans 3:19; 6:23; Revelation 21:8). 3. Jesus Christ, God in the flesh (God's Son), died upon the cross to pay for your sins (John 3:16-18; Romans 5:8). It is Jesus' blood that takes our sins away. Now I ask you this. Who made these rules? God? If so, why? Morningsong says that God does not send people to Hell. Really? Didn't he make these laws to begin with? If no, who did? Isn't your God in charge of the entire universe? If not, who is? Why would he do this if he is? What kind of game does your God play with this universe? Does this honestly make any sense to you? JB |
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I'm sure he does. Maybe not at first, but if you want to get to the library and check out a book...I'm SURE there is a check out fee. The library on level 27 does not have regular books like what you think of as books. They are non physical things. He calls them "rotes" and they are packets of information that can be experienced almost like you would experience a holodeck program.  So basically these things can only be experienced with projection?
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If you don't receive Jesus Christ and become a born again Christian, then you will sadly burn in Hellfire for all eternity This above statement is the bottom line for the "Born again" Christians. This is what they promote as truth and this is what they believe. They also state this: There are a few things you must know to be saved: 1. You are a sinner under the condemnation of God's Law (Romans 3:10,23). 2. You are GUILTY, and deserve to go to Hellfire as punishment for your sins (Romans 3:19; 6:23; Revelation 21:8). 3. Jesus Christ, God in the flesh (God's Son), died upon the cross to pay for your sins (John 3:16-18; Romans 5:8). It is Jesus' blood that takes our sins away. Now I ask you this. Who made these rules? God? If so, why? Morningsong says that God does not send people to Hell. Really? Didn't he make these laws to begin with? If no, who did? Isn't your God in charge of the entire universe? If not, who is? Why would he do this if he is? What kind of game does your God play with this universe? Does this honestly make any sense to you? JB The quotes you are taking are from man not God. The quotes of Bible verses are taken out of context. God made the rules because he created the universe....his sandbox...his rules. He even created YOU. Every hair on your head. He knows every thought in your mind and also knows you don't know HIM. He's OK with that for now. As MorningSong stated, he is patient. I agree with MorningSong, God does NOT send people to hell. We CHOOSE hell. You don't know God yet. If you knew him you would understand. Right now your heart and mind are not in a place that is open enough to hear. One day it will. Somewhere in this thread you said something to the effect that you were on a qwest for higher understanding and enlightenment. I honestly wish you the best of luck with that qwest. I don't know of any better ways of spending your days hear on earth. I firmly believe that one day you find the answers you are looking for. Hopefully, you will have the eyes to see and the ears to hear them. |
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According to Robert Monroe, who wrote three books about his journeys out of the body, there are many places that souls go after death. He said that on one level, (he called it level 26) all the heavens for all the different religions existed. When you die, you go to level 26 if you believed in a certain religion. When you got there, you can only see the heaven you believed in and none of the others. Where you end up after you die largely depends upon what you believe. If you believe in nothing, you might find yourself in the middle of nothing, and not be able to see anything. He tells of seeing a soul sitting and crying and proclaiming "I knew it! I knew there was nothing after death!" He said she could not see anyone or anything around her. So it is better to believe in something than nothing. Christians will go there and they will find their heaven because that is what they believe. I suppose people who believe in Hell will find it. But all of that is just temporary and will pass away and Hell is not eternal. You can walk out of it any time you decide you have had enough of that nonsense. Above level 26 is level 27. There, are many things there, but one specific thing is a huge library. Level 27 is a resting place for souls on their way to the higher self, and you can live there as long as you want until you decide to leave to the higher self and other density worlds. JB Ive been checking that out JeannieBean. The Monroe Institute has some interesting ideas Im interested in acquiring the Hemi-Sync audio guidance technology for brainwave synchronization. Ive also been attempting to acquire a Scientology E-meter for reading body thetan levels.
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Tue 05/13/08 05:37 PM
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The quotes you are taking are from man not God. The quotes of Bible verses are taken out of context. I did not quote any Bible verses. The quotes in the post were taken from a link given to me by Morningsong explaining what a born again Christian is. I am not discussing God here. I am discussing the assertions made by a few fundamentalist Christians who call themselves "born again Christians" and claim that only these people will be recognized by God, and also claim that most Christians are not "true" Christians because they are not "born again" according to what they believe is necessary. I don't presume to "quote God." God made the rules because he created the universe....his sandbox...his rules. He even created YOU. Every hair on your head. He knows every thought in your mind and also knows you don't know HIM. And you know this how? He's OK with that for now. As MorningSong stated, he is patient. I agree with MorningSong, God does NOT send people to hell. We CHOOSE hell. I do not choose any mythical place of that description. I don't plan to go there. You don't know God yet. If you knew him you would understand. Right now your heart and mind are not in a place that is open enough to hear. And you know this how? You don't know me at all. Somewhere in this thread you said something to the effect that you were on a qwest for higher understanding and enlightenment. I honestly wish you the best of luck with that qwest. I don't know of any better ways of spending your days hear on earth. I firmly believe that one day you find the answers you are looking for. Hopefully, you will have the eyes to see and the ears to hear them. Every moment of my life is a spiritual awakening. I do not close my mind to any information. All paths lead to God because God is all there is. JB |
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We finally agree. All Paths do lead to God.
I know that God created the universe, you and knows every hair on your head because the Bible says so. I know the Bible is fact because it has been scientifically proven. I know you don't know God personally because the statements you have made, the questions you ask and by you refering to Hell as a mythical place. |
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I know the Bible is fact because it has been scientifically proven.  Good luck with that assertion.  |
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I know you don't know God personally because the statements you have made, the questions you ask and by you refering to Hell as a mythical place. You know nothing about my relationship with God. I am a pantheist. Okay Hell is not a "mythical place" but it is probably not what you think it is. It is created with the mind just like everything else. This whole reality is mind created and holographic in nature. If you imagine a hell, then there is probably a hell. In fact, there are probably more than one. JB |
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And good luck to you in your assumption that it isn't.
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And good luck to you in your assumption that it isn't. I don't argue about things like that, its a bit of a waste of time, but there are those on this club who might. If the Bible were scientific proven it would be taught in science class and in all the schools. JB |
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I know the Bible is fact because it has been scientifically proven. Good luck with that assertion. truth can't contradict truth. |
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I know the Bible is fact because it has been scientifically proven. Good luck with that assertion. truth can't contradict truth. Truth is information. Information contradicts itself. 
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I know the Bible is fact because it has been scientifically proven. Good luck with that assertion. truth can't contradict truth. Truth is information. Information contradicts itself. again sweetheart we come down to what is logical for each one of us. peace and love for you dear. |
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I know the Bible is fact because it has been scientifically proven. Good luck with that assertion. truth can't contradict truth. Truth is information. Information contradicts itself. again sweetheart we come down to what is logical for each one of us. peace and love for you dear. The original statement was that the Bible has been "scientifically proven." If this were true, they would be teaching it in science class and in schools. I highly doubt that anyone can prove God even exists, or that he created the Universe in six days, or that he made a man out of dirt, or a woman out of a man's rib or that the devil walked the earth as a snake, or that Jesus walked on water, or raised people from the dead, or any of those things. None of these things have been scientifically proven. So that statement makes no sense. The Bible has not been scientifically proven at all. JB |
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I know the Bible is fact because it has been scientifically proven. Good luck with that assertion. truth can't contradict truth. Truth is information. Information contradicts itself. No, it doesn't. The truth is the truth, everything else is false. |
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I know the Bible is fact because it has been scientifically proven. Good luck with that assertion. truth can't contradict truth. Truth is information. Information contradicts itself. No, it doesn't. The truth is the truth, everything else is false. That is your opinion. Nevertheless, the Bible has not been scientifically proven. JB |
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