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| Topic: The Christian Challenge (long and boring) | |
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That is your opinion. Nevertheless, the Bible has not been scientifically proven. JB I never said it has been, but that doesn't change what I said about the truth. |
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That is your opinion. Nevertheless, the Bible has not been scientifically proven. JB I never said it has been, but that doesn't change what I said about the truth. Whatever. I was addressing the original statement. |
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Edited by
PublicVoidReInit
on
Wed 05/14/08 11:20 AM
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I don't blame you a bit. It is illogical. But no more illogical that Christianity, Heaven and Hell. JB I believe that phrase is couched in the framework of humanistic wisdom (which the Bible refers to succinctly) and thereby disqualifies itself. |
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Having only these two choices is not free will. Besides, any decision is one that is made under duress and is not valid. This is not the "accepted definition" of free will. But if you think it is, then think it is, but I am not going to accept it or "stick to it" as you suggest. You are free to disagree, but I will not accept this assertion. JB JB I sure don't agree with you on anything but I think what you say is very interesting, though your logic escapes me. At what count of choices does it become free will? Let's say its a computer program (since I know that stuff) int choices = 0; choices++; //choices is 1 here choices++; //choices is 2 here choices++; //choices is 3 here if(choices == x) message("YOU HAVE FREE WILL NOW!"); so according to your logic, what value to you give x so that it becomes free will? |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 05/14/08 12:13 PM
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Having only these two choices is not free will. Besides, any decision is one that is made under duress and is not valid. This is not the "accepted definition" of free will. But if you think it is, then think it is, but I am not going to accept it or "stick to it" as you suggest. You are free to disagree, but I will not accept this assertion. JB JB I sure don't agree with you on anything but I think what you say is very interesting, though your logic escapes me. At what count of choices does it become free will? Let's say its a computer program (since I know that stuff) int choices = 0; choices++; //choices is 1 here choices++; //choices is 2 here choices++; //choices is 3 here if(choices == x) message("YOU HAVE FREE WILL NOW!"); so according to your logic, what value to you give x so that it becomes free will? I have also been giving this some thought. If the idea of "free will" means that you have only one of two choices at any given point, then you may assume, if you like, that you have the "freedom" to make a choice between these two and you may call this "free will" if you choose. But the definition of the will itself is the power of self direction. Self direction is the conscious ability to choose where you will place your attention, what you will feel, what you will believe, what you will think, what you will do, etc. Therefore, If you go the way of the "Born again" Christian you are giving over your will to them because they will thereafter proceed to tell you what you must believe. In fact, one of the requirements for being "saved" is that you must believe that Jesus is the son of God and that he died for your sins. You must "realize" and admit that you are a sinner and accept Jesus as your savior. You must ask him into your heart. etc etc etc. These are the "requirements" for making that choice. You must believe as they tell you. On the other side of the decision is the LIE (in my opinion) that if you do not comply with these requirements, that you will spend eternity in Hell. This is very much like "Convert or Die." This is the choice. Change the way you think, think the way they tell you, believe what they tell you, or be left to burn in Hell. Something is wrong with this picture. But this is what born again Christians call "Free Will." Any decision made under the threat of death, injury or Hell is made under duress and cannot be called valid. If this claim of believe or spend eternity in Hell is true, why did God set this up in this way? What kind of sick game is he or she playing with souls? If this claim is not true (which is what I believe) then it is a LIE and a THREAT and a form of extortion made for the purpose of manipulating and limiting a person's free will. Is it free will? No, it seeks to eliminate free will. It hates the idea of free will, because once you make the choice to enter Christianity, (to avoid the pits of Hell) you will find them telling you what you should do, think and believe and even what you should feel. Sounds like bondage to me. Not freedom. So many Christians live in guilt and shame because they are constantly told they are sinners, unworthy, and even that what they desire is wrong or how they live their life is wrong. They are afraid to find their true purpose. Some are afraid to laugh and enjoy life. They are taught obedience to a God they cannot even see which amounts to obedience to the Church's particular idea of what they think is right and wrong. Free will? I think not. JB |
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This is very much like "Convert or Die." The "or" proves that there is free will. Both options may not be appealing, but they are both available to you. If someone said "I'm going to kill you or your mother", you might not like the choices, but they are yours to make. Really...seriously....this is old. Let's not discuss it anymore. I hope you are having a nice Wednesday. |
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This is very much like "Convert or Die." Really...seriously....this is old. Let's not discuss it anymore. I hope you are having a nice Wednesday. Really... seriously... I wasn't discussing it with you anyway. So please feel free NOT to read my posts. I am having a nice Wednesday thank you.  |
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This is very much like "Convert or Die." Really...seriously....this is old. Let's not discuss it anymore. I hope you are having a nice Wednesday. Really... seriously... I wasn't discussing it with you anyway. So please feel free NOT to read my posts. I am having a nice Wednesday thank you. What you posted is specious, it needed to be responded to. You are arguing, but if you don't believe in free will, then you can't believe in will at all. Your postion is illogical at best. Besides, it's an open forum, there are no rules against me replying. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 05/14/08 01:52 PM
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This is very much like "Convert or Die." The "or" proves that there is free will. Both options may not be appealing, but they are both available to you. Having been given limited choices by some power or so-called authority is not free will at all. It is tyranny, plain and simple. It leaves no room for creativity. It is a choice between bondage and torture. It is not free at all. Because you can't see this, you are not free even to think clearly. If someone said "I'm going to kill you or your mother", you might not like the choices, but they are yours to make. The important "choice" being made in a situation like the example given above is the choice of the person holding the weapon in which he intends to kill me or my mother. Thank you for using this example. It is illustrative of the threatening nature of the two choices given to non-Christians by those who promote this false doctrine. JB |
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Besides, it's an open forum, there are no rules against me replying. Very well, then. Reply away. But you are trying to tell me to drop the subject when I was not discussing it with you. JB |
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What you posted is specious, it needed to be responded to. You are arguing, but if you don't believe in free will, then you can't believe in will at all. Your postion is illogical at best. I believe in the will. I assert that all will is "free." But tyranny is the result of anyone who would attempt to intimidate someone into limited choices such as "convert or Die" or "I will kill you or your mother, you decide." The enforcement of that threat is tyranny, the verbal proposition of that threat is extortion. The persons making the threat are "evil." Any doctrine that seeks to limit, control or otherwise rob a person of his choice of thought, deed, action, or belief is "evil." JB |
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What you posted is specious, it needed to be responded to. You are arguing, but if you don't believe in free will, then you can't believe in will at all. Your postion is illogical at best. I believe in the will. I assert that all will is "free." But tyranny is the result of anyone who would attempt to intimidate someone into limited choices such as "convert or Die" or "I will kill you or your mother, you decide." The enforcement of that threat is tyranny, the verbal proposition of that threat is extortion. The persons making the threat are "evil." Any doctrine that seeks to limit, control or otherwise rob a person of his choice of thought, deed, action, or belief is "evil." JB Once again, you post specious arguements. If you don't believe in hell, then there is no threat. You do not believe in hell, so even if that is your choice you are not aware. That means you have absolute free will in the situation. Anyone who believes in hell can freely choose to serve God or not. That is still free will. If you think of God as a tyrant, then choose hell. That is still your choice. I see the subject clearly, your perspective is twisted by your own beliefs. Free will is DEFINED as the ability to make moral choices. If you have that ability, no matter how limited your number of choices may be, then you have free will. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 05/14/08 02:53 PM
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What you posted is specious, it needed to be responded to. You are arguing, but if you don't believe in free will, then you can't believe in will at all. Your postion is illogical at best. I believe in the will. I assert that all will is "free." But tyranny is the result of anyone who would attempt to intimidate someone into limited choices such as "convert or Die" or "I will kill you or your mother, you decide." The enforcement of that threat is tyranny, the verbal proposition of that threat is extortion. The persons making the threat are "evil." Any doctrine that seeks to limit, control or otherwise rob a person of his choice of thought, deed, action, or belief is "evil." JB Once again, you post specious arguements. If you don't believe in hell, then there is no threat. You do not believe in hell, so even if that is your choice you are not aware. That means you have absolute free will in the situation. Anyone who believes in hell can freely choose to serve God or not. That is still free will. If you think of God as a tyrant, then choose hell. That is still your choice. I see the subject clearly, your perspective is twisted by your own beliefs. Free will is DEFINED as the ability to make moral choices. If you have that ability, no matter how limited your number of choices may be, then you have free will. You are absolutely right. There is no threat to me at all. It is an empty threat. I do have absolute free will in the situation. I do not think of (my) God as a tyrant, that is why I believe that your concept of God is not the true God at all. I know what a tyrant is and my concept of God is all about freedom and responsibility. It is not about giving a limited ultimatum of two choices of either serving him or going to Hell for eternity. I do not blame God for the tyrants who claim to be Gods who would practice this kind of tyranny upon unknowing souls. "You will know them by their deeds." is certainly true. This deed reeks of tyranny and extortion and false doctrine. I do not define the will as "the ability to make moral choices." I prefer Wallace D. Wattles definition. It is the ability to direct the self. I see the subject clearly, your perspective is twisted by your own beliefs. My beliefs are not twisted from how I look at it. Your understanding of the will is limited and restrictive. It kills creativity and growth. My concept is one of freedom and responsibility and (free will) is NOT limited between two choices (bondage and servitude vs. torture) in an attempt to influence free choice of how one will choose to direct their own life, in thought, word, deeds, feelings, and beliefs. (For more incite to the will, I would suggest reading the book "Power of Will" and will provide you with a link address to download the entire book if you wish. It is a public domain book.) Once again, you post specious arguements. Your claim that I post "specious" arguments is subject only to your opinion, and imply that my arguments are "deceptive." What is deceptive about them? I know what a threat is. I know what tyranny is. I know how it feels to be told under duress what I should have to do or think in order to avoid punishment or torture or death or Hell. I speak reason with crystal clarity. Your mind is clouded and twisted with your belief in a veiled threat and lie disguised as a promise of eternal life vs. an eternal hell. Definition of "specious" 1.apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible: specious arguments. 2.pleasing to the eye but deceptive. 3.Obsolete. pleasing to the eye; fair. All of the above, again, is subject to opinion and point of view, not reason and logic, or fact. JB |
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My beliefs are not twisted from how I look at it. I didn't say that your beliefs were twisted. You understand of the will is limited and restrictive. No, my understanding is the accepted defintion which appears in any dictionary. I don't use a book that the author can't even get paid for to get my definition. It kills creativity and growth. Explain what that means? Because I think everybody has free will, that kills creativity and growth? A specious comment if I have ever seen one. Your claim that I post "specious" arguments is subject only to your opinion, and imply that my arguments are "deceptive." What is deceptive about them? I know what a threat is. I know what tyranny is. No, they are obviously specious to anyone who reads them. If there is choice, there is free will. That's the very definition of free will, the ability to make choices. I'm not sure what is so hard about that. You want to complain that if someone has no good choices, then they don't have free will. Well, if you were in a burning building and your choices were: Jump and fall 20 storys to your death or burn to death...well, both choices suck, but it's all you have. They are still your choices to make, even if you aren't happy about the outcomes. No, I did not imply that your arguments are deceptive. You posted the defintion of specious, but you ignored the first defintion, which is obviously the one I was using. I said "SPECIOUS ARGUMENTS"...look at the definition and right there it is "superficially pleasing or plausible: specious arguments." |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 05/14/08 03:04 PM
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If there is choice, there is free will. Technically you might get away with that argument. The will is always free. Religions HATES that. They literally HATE the idea of free will. Therefore, they are forever, attempting to narrow and limit and control the will of individuals to suit their purposes. This is "evil" and it is an act AGAINST the law of God Itself. To narrow the individual's choices deliberately is anti-freedom. To deliberately propose that either you believe this one way and do this certain thing, ~~or else you will end up in Hell, is extortion, terrorism, and tyranny. And it is false doctrine because the true divine source does not limit the free will of conscious individuals. You believe and teach otherwise. So we part on this point. JB |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 05/14/08 03:28 PM
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My beliefs are not twisted from how I look at it. I didn't say that your beliefs were twisted. I stand corrected. You said that my "perspective" is "twisted" by my beliefs. Of course you understand that every individual has a different perspective. But you are the one who has the "belief." I am an "unbeliever." Therefore my perspective comes from my unbelief in your doctrine, and for seeing it for what it is. Extortion and tyranny. Therefore I make my judgments on the feeling I would get when someone gives me two choices, both ones I don't care for. Lucky for me, I can walk away from that because of my unbelief in any of it. JB |
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Believe or Burn in Hell are not your options. Your options are Believe or Don't Believe. Period. The Burn in Hell part only comes in if you believe and then turn your back on him. That is interesting. I have not heard this "back-stabbers only" version of hell... I like it only slightly better than the "all non-believers go to hell" version... I just plain don't believe in hell, or that god is a bully. But I am interested- what happens to the non-believers in your opinion? |
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I have to say very very personally that it would be vert selfish of me saying that just and only just christian will be saved. I can't comprehend an idea of God who is going to punish with eternal hell let's say african people who have never had contact with the Lord. They are not at guilt. And those who know the Lord but deny Him. Well the Lord Himself asks forgiveness for them in the cross because they don't know what they are doing. This is my very personal point of view I'm not talking for any other christian or christian denomination whatsoever. Walker...God NEVER sends anyone to hell!! NEVER!! We send ourselves there by rejecting Jesus ! BUT.....God will give man every opportunity to HEAR about the Lord Jesus , and to Recieve Jesus as thier Lord !! And those that have not heard? God will NOT hold them accountable(like babies for instance).... But I believe God will still even reach those somehow, who have not had opportunity to hear about Jesus thier Saviour. God STILL will reach them somehow...even in the last hour ...even thru sending ministering angels if neccessary......but God WILL SOMEHOW, see to it that every man HEARS!! And then the decision is left up to every man to recieve or not recieve Jesus into their heart as their Saviour!! Walker....again.... God is NOT going to send millions to hell..cause again God doesn't send ANY to Hell.... man sends himself there..by rejecting Jesus the Saviour sent for all mankind !! BUT... gonna share something else here....I have known atheists, who have accepted Jesus on their death beds!!! And what I am saying here is..... a lot of people PROTEST against ACCEPTING JESUS NOW, as their Saviour and Lord...but one day they WILL Recieve Him..they just don't know that yet..and God is very patient. Right now they are rejecting Jesus cause they just don't quite undestand yet.... But again..God is Patient. But for SOME out there ...God is dealing with You RIGHT NOW..and NOW is the Time for Salvation for You..Do NOT Reject HIM anymore..cause this is youor opportunity to ACCEPT Jesus ...NOW....not tomorrow. TODAY is the Day of Salvation!! And You know WHO you are . BUT......for those whom God reaches out to..even at the last minute? Even on their deathbed? And they still WON'T recieve Jesus, even Then... in their last dyingg breath??? Then THOSE are the ones God is talking about going to hell. Cause if someone rejects Jesus.....EVEN in thier last breath ....then Jesus CAN'T go against his WORD and suddenlly change his WORD..just to save that one who is rejecting Him now...even on his deathbed!! Comprende? BUT .. I bet there are VERY FEW who will reject Christ, right before they die. But why WAIT that Long? Point is.......although some people may protest against Jesus NOW..but one day they will recieve..casue the Word WILL become CLEAR to them ...about Jesus as Lord....but they are just not understanding right now..that's all. But GOD AIN'T done with them!! I truly believe ....that most people before they leave this world, will have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Cause God Will give them chance after chance to Hear..and One day, it just sinks in. Amen? Point is... MOST people will eventually accept Jesus. They just don't know it yet. I wondered if you were aware the although many sources do state that christianity is currently the most popular religion world wide, most estimates count the number of people who call themselves christians world wide at about 2 billion. This is only less than a third of the worlds population. E.g. According to the 2005 survey of Encyclopædia Britannica, Christianity is practiced by 33.06% of world population, Islam- 20.28%, Hinduism- 13.33%, Chinese folk religion- 6.27% or Buddhism-5.87%. Irreligious and atheists were ~14.27% and 3.97% follow indigenous tribal religions. So in your opinion they are all going to hell? |
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Having only these two choices is not free will. Besides, any decision is one that is made under duress and is not valid. This is not the "accepted definition" of free will. But if you think it is, then think it is, but I am not going to accept it or "stick to it" as you suggest. You are free to disagree, but I will not accept this assertion. JB JB I sure don't agree with you on anything but I think what you say is very interesting, though your logic escapes me. At what count of choices does it become free will? Let's say its a computer program (since I know that stuff) int choices = 0; choices++; //choices is 1 here choices++; //choices is 2 here choices++; //choices is 3 here if(choices == x) message("YOU HAVE FREE WILL NOW!"); so according to your logic, what value to you give x so that it becomes free will? This is very much like "Convert or Die." JB Actually your paradigm is off, that is, your understanding from your sinful human understanding. I'm not sure how much study you have done on redemption, justification, santification, sacrifice, grace , propitiation, reconciliation, and mercy, but I believe if you made the effort you would have a total paradigm shift. It can be very intellectual and yet it is perfect in its simplicity. Otherwise be lazy , ignorant, and rant about it from an uninformed perspective. You see, it's not "convert or die" it's more like the character Spears said in the movie series Band of Brothers, "you are already dead". You are on death row, as far as sin is concerned, the Judge who is perfect in his justice has said you are free to go because some one has chosen to taken your penalty for your offence. Now you can live your life and totally disregard this person who was your propitiation for your offence or you can live unto the one who died for you and rose again with all the promises and inheritance that is His. Likewise you are taking the lie of grace being perverted into an extortion event and believing it. So you are already being lied to. http://grace-for-today.com/1441.htm |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Thu 05/15/08 08:11 AM
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Actually your paradigm is off, that is, your understanding from your sinful human understanding. I notice you are new here. Welcome. My name is Jeannie. I am a pantheist.  In answer to the above, "sin" in only defined within the confines of certain religious doctrine. I'm not sure how much study you have done on redemption, justification, santification, sacrifice, grace , propitiation, reconciliation, and mercy, but I believe if you made the effort you would have a total paradigm shift. It can be very intellectual and yet it is perfect in its simplicity. Otherwise be lazy , ignorant, and rant about it from an uninformed perspective. I have been well informed except for questions that have not been satisfactorily answered hence the "perfect picture" fails even the most flexible imaginative logic and does not fit with any of the other information on the table, so there it sits on the side line, and I still wait and search for the information that will make some sense of it. You see, it's not "convert or die" it's more like the character Spears said in the movie series Band of Brothers, "you are already dead". You are on death row, as far as sin is concerned, the Judge who is perfect in his justice has said you are free to go because some one has chosen to taken your penalty for your offence. Now you can live your life and totally disregard this person who was your propitiation for your offence or you can live unto the one who died for you and rose again with all the promises and inheritance that is His. Likewise you are taking the lie of grace being perverted into an extortion event and believing it. So you are already being lied to. Your paradigm is more difficult to believe, I am simply telling you what it feels like. If there is any truth to the idea or necessity of a crucified god, the question of the reason for this blood sacrifice to Satan (or to whom ever this sacrifice was made) still remains. The idea that I am to be held responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve does not seem just or reasonable either. None of these stories make any sense in our modern world and I believe there are important pieces of information missing, which Christianity does not have. (How does the blood of an innocent pay for the crimes of another? What kind of privative government would require such a thing?) I have heard the common replies to these questions from Christians, but they don't make logical sense. I evaluate information and consider all possibilities. As it stands, this information does not fit, is not complete, etc. JB |
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