As much as I like the idea that everyone will eventually go to heaven, Revelations 21 describes something very different. This passage states that the new heaven and the new earth will replace the first ones once they have passed away. This chapter describes the fearful, unbelieving, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and liars as having, “their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

If you know another context for this passage, let me know what you think.

I was raised on the fire and brimstone version of the Bible...if you don't pass judgment, you simply don't get in.

I believe that while everyone will sin and everyone has the grace of God's forgiveness, forgiveness is not without limits and we are expected to learn from our transgressions.

From the content of our conversation so far, I would not have guessed that you agree with anything I've stated.

Without going back through 10 years of books, articles and newspapers read on the subject, I cannot show you the sources that you feel have "exagerated", but there are a great deal of widely accepted experts you disagree with on the numbers I have posted...not just me, as I have only agreed with them, and am not the one who has conducted the studies they are based on.

But if you think that I/they have exagerated, then you must believe that the 2010 census comparison from the years 1940 to 2010 are "exaggerations" as well, as the figures in the table are pretty well in keeping with my "exaggerations". My "exaggerations" include just one more census year than the table does; the 1930 census, which are an even less educated percentage of our current workforce.



Yes, and as has been proven throughout history, the solution lies within understanding the cause and calculating the effects on the region and it's establishment of any given solution. So, I am not off topic unless your intent was to host a gripe session and not a serious discussion.



The question I put to you was misunderstood. I was asking if you have a theory on why the citizens of Alabama are still unemployed while tomatoes rot on the vine? I am not questioning why the current harvesters are gone...I well know that. That was the premiss of the subject being brought up at all.

Personally I think that every percentage of jobs taken back from illegals and made available to our unemployed citizens, should be matched in the same percentage of unemployment benefit cutbacks. Why would anyone opt to pick tomatoes when they have X amount of months of funding left to collect? I'm not saying there are not those who would rather work than collect, but the crops in Alabama surely show that there are not as many as we would have hoped.



I thought I have posted my thoughts for a solution throughout my pervious posts. I will restate as well as expound on them here, so you don't have to read back through all my posts.

I believe it was fallacy to open the revolving door to begin with, but since it's been a bandaid to our problems for so long, it will only result in a potentially fatal bleed to simply rip it off now.

I believe that controlled immigration based on the need for essential laborers is unavoidable for now in order to keep produce at a consumable price, as well as to keep other labor intensive services from inflating.

I will go even further now and state that I believe the controlled number of immigrants should be slowly replaced by US citizens over the next couple of generations. I believe it will have to be done this slowly in order not to effect the economy in a derogatory way.

I believe this can most effectively be achieved through a two plank process of cutting back unemployment benefits (and/or the implementation of attaching a work requirement to able bodied recipients), and by encouraging the growth of a US based labor force by reigning in government sponsored college funding in the forms of grants and easy loans…which in an unbalanced workforce where people with degrees are working at Wal-Mart (if they are working at all) are unable to make the payments anyway.

The idea of every US citizen not having easy access to a higher education is highly unpopular. But we are fast becoming a country full of architects and building engineers who cannot find a steelworker or bricklayer, and unless this changes, the need for necessary immigrant labor will only increase.

I too have given great consideration to putting convicts back into the workforce and endorse it done correctly. I believe that not only would this be an effective, but affordable solution on many fronts. Between being affordable labor and providing prison guard jobs, the cost and effect would be very workable; as has been proven in the past, and is still working in many other countries. Allowing qualified prisoners to work off a prison sentence earlier would also positively affect our prison overpopulation problem. On top of all that, it is widely accepted that manual work is a very helpful tool in rehabilitating a criminal mentality, and giving a convict returning to society the confidence of having experience in a legal and marketable form of future employment.

No matter how one looks at it, it's most certainly the most poetic model of love and devotion.

What led me to believe that this is about an exchange between two people are the very specific physical descriptions of what seem like a very specific man and woman.

The woman is portrayed to be a black vineyard keeper, with black hair (compared to goats in the region), dark eyes and skin that are compared to caramel, with sheep white teeth. She is only one of his vast numbers of Queens, concubines and virgins, and was the daughter of a prince. She’s the only daughter of her mother as well as her mother’s favorite child. She is esteemed by all the daughters (I assume this refers to the daughters of Jerusalem, the term referred to with frequency) including the Queens. She is also referred to as his sister and spouse. I would assume sister to be some kind of term other than biological, but in those days one never knew. Solomon was thought to have lost some favor in the eyes of God for his choices in spouses and concubines.

He is portrayed as a white and ruddy man with red cheeks, raven dark eyes and black bushy hair. The whites of his eyes are compared to milk and his face and hands are referred to as golden, while his belly is compared to ivory. He is said to be the cheifest among 10,000 with many flocks. There are several references to Solomon…his chariot, bed and his men…which if not implying that he is her beloved, have been randomly inserted into the song for no apparent rhyme or reason. Therefore I believe the man written about is Solomon.

The reason I think of the woman as the Queen of Sheba, is because she considered to have been a major enough factor in Solomon’s live to have been featured in Kings…more so than any other wives or concubines. Whether it was Jeremiah, or an anonymous Deuteronomist…the writer seemed to considered her an important part of Solomon’s life. The Queen of Sheba was also to have been widely accepted as the Queen of Ethiopia as well, and is thought by many to have been black. Solomon was known to have favored black women. It is believed that Solomon converted the Queen of Sheba to the true faith, something he had failed to accomplish with his many foreign wives who clung to their false Gods. It’s my thinking that this alone would qualify her as his favorite of his “lilies”, though there is no proof that they were married, many suspect it, simply based on the great love and respect between them.

Though venerated by most Judea/Christian religions, Adam and Eve are canonized as Saints by very few of them. Western Christians for the most part do not recognize them as Saints.

Personally, I believe that Eve’s Apple was supposed to represent the first case of good and evil. In my mind there was only good until the serpent came along to tempt Eve.

I don’t believe this was a magic apple from a magic tree, but that the act of disobedience made Adam and Eve, for the first time, experience regret and the shame that typically follows. Just as a child that has no real concept of right and wrong (even if they’ve been told) until they actually commit a wrong, and do not know shame until they feel guilt for the first time, so were Adam and Eve in the Garden. Once a child experiences this emotion for the first time, they weigh everything with that newfound gauge, just as Adam and Eve having now experienced shame, became conscious of their nakedness and viewed it as shameful.

To me, it’s not about the apple or the tree; it’s about disobeying their parents. I believe that it was God’s hope, just as it’s every parent’s hope, that their children will simply do what they say so they can guide them right past any unpleasantness of the world.

Nicely put.

Metalwing,

We are not likely to see eye to eye, but this may interest you since you like census data. This particular table from the same census report compares the educational achievement back to 1970. As you'll see the rate of college grads increases by over 3 times just between 1970 and 2010. Though this table also breaks down by ethnic groups, I think for the purposes of this conversation only the total column is relevant.

Edit: I don't seem to be able to get the table pasted here, but here is the link...

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0230.pdf

If I'm not going to (obviously) convince you that our workforce is becoming more educated over time, and this the cause to the effect that the government opened the border initially, then I’d be interested to learn the reason(s) that you believe responsible for the implementation our country’s revolving door immigration policy around 1965?

In the same light, I’d also be interested to learn what you believe was the cause of Alabama’s failure to harvest? Do you attribute this to extended unemployment benefits? American laziness? Anything?

Exactly! The laborous jobs that American's don't line up to fill still have to be done by someone if we want our crops to come in. Controlled immigration is the key in my mind....since we can't turn back time to stop the revolving door now anyway.

To those of you who figure we can always import tomatoes...this is only one crop harvested mostly by immigrants. Going from the breadbasket of the world to a country that imports a good part of it's own produce needs would not only effect our economy, but the world economy.

Yes, there is a problem, but let's not replace it with a different problem.

I agree 100% that a bad solution does not invalidate the problem. But why put up with a bad solution when there is bound to be a better one out there? I find it hard to believe that we cannot come up with a solution other than one that will harmfully impact our economy...especially at a time when it is already down.

The economy will certainly adjust…in the form of $5 tomatoes (hopefully an exaggeration), as the rules of immigration in no way lessens the unavoidable rule that supply and demand dictate the price of goods.

Driving the illegal immigrants from Alabama was supposed to open up jobs to the 10% unemployed there. My biggest disappointment is that months later, there is still a 10% unemployment rate, and field after field of dead tomatoes on the vine. I’m not saying they should not leave…just that there has to be a better way than one that is guaranteed to drive produce sky high.

I'm also angry with the Alabama unemployed, as I had sincere hopes that they would take up those jobs and bring in the crops...but they did not...they stayed on unemployment instead.

Metalwing,

You have misunderstood me, as I never said I believed 27% included infants. I used the pooped pants equation as an example of why you must remove Baby Boomers and older citizens from that number.

I’m sorry if I did not make it clearly enough.

If you don’t believe that the huge population of retiring boomers over the last 8 years would decrease the percentage of college grads by much than you must think that as high a percentage of them went to college as do today. I disagree.

I got my numbers over a course of years studying economic impact and the patterns of free market societies. I’m not about to go back through 10 years of study notes to show you resources for what are commonly written and widely accepted figures.

It does not take exact figures, but basic reasoning skills to figure that our current workforce is more highly educated now than ever before in the US. Less educated people are leaving the workforce and a higher level of educated people are entering it…period.
If you don’t believe that, then you’ve not spent much time studying the subject and I can’t help that. Studying a couple of charts does not a free market economist make.

It surprises me that more was not recored of his personal life.

The scholastic Rabbis in Jerusalem may be the only other people who have read it, but English versions are available too... not likely big sellers. The Torah is the teaching bible, so I guess that makes it the common scripture.

I’m a huge fan of Solomon. But his example got me into a lot of trouble when I was a child…I imagined by his example, that if you were wise enough, you could get away with just about anything, and everyone would still adore you. It turned out that God was apparently more forgiving than my parents, and I was mistaking high marks for wisdom. Haha!

He’s still my favorite King…so he’s still able to make it work for him.

I imagine the drug smugglers are just a tad more illegal than the immigrants who come here to pick tomatoes…something, by the way, which is not being accomplished in Alabama this year, despite their 10% unemployment rate. Maybe someone could explain this to me.

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I’d bet my horse that there are more violent crimes committed in the US by Mexicans with drug affiliations, than by hard working Mexicans.

This in no way excuses any of them from being here illegally, but they pose a different issue than those of violent crimes...an issue that as I've stated before, is one that will take a comprehensive plan and time to remedy.

There are obviously no economists here, as not too many of you seem the least bit concerned about what a forced mass exodus would do to our economy...maybe it will take $5 tomatoes this winter to make anyone stop to consider that.

Let’s get this out of the way…I believe you! 27% of the US population were college grads...almost a decade ago. There, I said it...now that I am correct...

That does not change the fact that this is not the percentage of the US workforce…even for 2003, because the Baby Boomers and older are (for the most part) no longer in the US workforce. Because a smaller percent of this age group were college grads, including them dilutes the percentage of the US workforce that we were talking about.

People never cease to disturb me.

I learn something new each day. The service jobs would fill up fast, but the construction jobs, in my opinion would take much more consideration. I know that since the laws that just passed in Alabama, I have several relatives there desperate for a roofer and there are none to be found. Imagine that. Ha!

If our government wants to use a revolving door in the future, that's fine with me...but they have to maintain the means to open and close that door, which I don’t think is entirely possible.

I quite agree. The thing that most people don't realize when, insisting that immigrants are bad for our economy, is that in most labor pay systems a legal entity receives the payroll check, which is divided up into cash payments to the undocumented workers. In doing this, the legal entity takes on the whole of the illegal workers income tax debt. So besides bringing business and spending a good share of the funds they earn right here in the US, the government is also collecting their share of tax revenue...just not in their own names, but through their employer.

As far as receiving unfair treatment, abuse or inferior pay is unacceptable anytime and anywhere to or by anyone. Period. Most of the workers I’ve suspected to be illegal that I have known, did better work and received better pay….which is just how it’s supposed to be.

I didn't graduate either. Sometimes life gets in the way of goals...then moves on.

First of all, you are the first person on this earth to call me Liberal. If you get to know me, you will see how funny that idea really is.

Secondly, I'm not saying that I want illegals taking all the jobs. I'm simply saying that we don't have the manpower in this country at this time to eliminate every illegal that holds a labor job in one foul swoop without driving the economy into destruction.

I'm not talking about jobs at McDonalds...which greatly surprises me that a large corporation like that would risk hiring illegal employees.

The labor industry is attractive to illegals greatly due to the fact that they are hidden in the complex (often second party) hiring process. A contractor hires a legal company who is not required by law to disclose the legal status of his own employees...and the contractor is not allowed to ask.

Thirdly, far from a back stabber, I am a job provider who does not much appreciate the current administration, which is hell bent on stiffling the free market that would provide more jobs if our hands were untied. Instead, we are all volunteering pay cuts to keep current employees on staff.

Your 27% counts all US citizens, not just the workforce. (It’s like stating that 20% of our population poops their pants without mentioning that 18% are infants.) So take baby boomers and older out of that equation for a more realistic percentage of our educated workforce today.

I’m not just talking about college degrees, but education in general. We’ve have an 88% high school graduation rate since 2005 in this country and 63% of students go straight to college from there. It’s somewhere around 53% of those entering college that graduate with a bachelors degree or higher and that does not factor in the students who chose associate programs, spent 3 years in college and opted out before their degrees were attained or those who went straight into the workforce, started businesses and attended college courses on a needed basis later in life. We are highly educated as a whole in this country.



I also worked my way through, but these kids today have an abundance of assistance and easy loan access. When my niece's husband left her with a baby, she made the decision to go back to school to provide a better life for her child. I started giving her a pep talk about helping her get through it, she laughed at me and said that even her childcare expenses were covered and at age 20 she was able to get a low interest loan to pay for the portion the grant didn't cover, including housing allowances and books.



I don't know about a lot of other construction jobs, but I grew up in the roofing industry and know for a fact that it's hard to find a white roofer out there, and it's harder still to find a whole white crew. The last few white roofers that worked for my family took no pride in their work, were undependable and disrespectful to the homeowners and my family. They simply did not seem to want to do the job. In fact I've never met a white roofer with a good attitude about his job or who took any pride in doing it well. That's just my own personal experience in one construction trade, but there it is.

I'm not denying that there are those who want to work the labor jobs that can't find one due to illegals...I'm simply saying that there are not enough of them to fill all of labor jobs that keep this economy pumping.

This topic sounds more like a drug problem than an immigration probleme to me. Maybe the real issue is that Amrericans feel the immagrants are taking all the drug lord jobs in this country.

I have a little different viewpoint on illegal immigration. I’m not as upset with the immigrants as I am with our government for starting the migration to begin with…inadvertently as it may have been; they invited this.

The following statement is not my opinion…it's historical fact.

As education became easier to attain in America (now 4 times the percentage of kids attend college than in our grandparents day) and as America’s service industry grew to replace our departing manufacturing industry, our government adopted a revolving door policy to supply the labor needed to harvest and build what our own workforce was not able or willing to accomplish.

Now this is my opinion…based on common sense and rudimentary economics.

Had our government not been so quick to supplement our labor needs, the lack of produce alone would have driven up the price of living, naturally making it harder for some to pursue college…thus filling our labor pool once again, and reducing the price of produce. There would have been no necessary job openings and thus no need for revolving door immigrant labor…which started this out of control ball a-rolling in the first place. The natural balance of a free market economy was not allowed to go unmolested.

I contend that we have over-educated ourselves right out of a labor workforce. Unless they start handing out tool belts with diplomas, today’s generation of graduating youths are not likely to take up the jobs that immigrants now hold in the labor industries. While I’m sure there are still a percentage of Americans who are hardy and willing enough to take over those jobs, a good percentage of these would not be willing to do so at the current pay rates. As a whole those are not the kind of workers we produce in this country anymore…they are a dying breed. I don't see where we could possibly produce in this country…at this time…the amount of workers that would be needed to fill necessary labor jobs if every illegal were sent packing all at once.

It is my belief that to remedy this problem effectively and without shocking the economy (worse than it’s been) would take a calculated program enforced over a substantial period of time.

I’m sure this is another topic altogether, but easy access loans that allow us to educate such a high percentage of our youths contribute greatly to our debtor status.

That’s what I believe. Take it or leave it…but at least consider it first.