Wait, but how can that be? I mean, it's the worst it's been since Hoover? This must be part of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy!!! Or perhaps Bilderberg? What we need is for Ross Perot to create a chart, buy up some air-time and teach us all a thing or three about chickens and stuff :)

Drew

This is a sad and tragic loss of life. There is no getting around that and like others, my heart goes out to the family of the boy who died.

All of that stated I need to step up here a bit for doctors. I work in health care and while not a doctor myself I have a few friends who are. Medicine is such an imperfect science. Mistakes are made because those who go into health-care are human. That does not help this boy or his family but I know of a number of dedicated, compassionate and very talented physicians, PA-Cs, and ARNPs who are very good at what they do and very talented. Yes, there are a number of mistakes made in hospitals each year and yes things like medication errors are always user error but those seem to be the only stories you hear about.

We don't always hear about the success stories or about the ER physician who cracked the chest of a man having a heart attack and did manual heart massage which wound up saving the man's life. We don't always hear about the doctors who spot potentially serious illnesses early and are able to help Rx good treatment options.

While there is a time and place to to be outraged by mistakes and while the case that prompted this post is beyond sad, I hope that people will also remember the good that is done, often times at great sacrifice and effort, in order that we might be healthier.

-Drew

LOL! Nice.

It wasn't good enough for him that he was stealing from the place but he thought he'd stop for a sexual crime as well? I hope beyond all hope that they have a cell somewhere for him and that no one wastes money on his receiving his GED.

-Drew

Personally I do hope that Madison keeps on with this line of attack. It might have worked to some extent when it was Republicans throwing this type of fire but it will backfire on the two Dems running right now and all but secure John McCain a victory. Hillary is going to go after McCain for his military service? Please!! She helped along the "I didn't inhale kid" while John McCain was flying combat missions. And for every person out there that says McCain's service is tarnished there will three more coming to his defense. As a strategy to beat him, it will, if used, go down as one of the most ill-fated political moves ever. How do we know that? Because neither Hillary or Barack or stupid enough to join in this choir of people ripping McCain over his military service. They know better. A first year political science student knows that after a roundhouse kick to McCain for military service all McCain has to do is smile slightly and say: "So, Senator Clinton, tell us about your military service to our nation."

"Umm, well, I baked pies for Chelsea" just isn't going to cut it.


-Drew

Good! This has nothing at all to do with a conservative mindset vs. a liberal one. I realize that this is not MSN but when I moderated communities there years ago they made it very clear to us that they would not tolerate people copying and pasting articles and would get even more fired up over pictures. A lot of pictures carry copyright claims as well. We eventually got clarification identical to what Mike has posted. We would copy perhaps one paragraph and then give an active hyper-link to the site. This would force the reader to go to the site to read the entire article (if it was written by a community member) or at the very least link them to the site of the original host.

And that is the only fair way to do it. Getting articles written and accepted by bigger sites is hard work. They have hundred, perhaps thousands of submissions and they have limited space so they pick what they think will bring their readers in. If people are pulling those articles to other forums (like this one) it takes the original host site out of the picture. But what really upsets them (outside of traffic loss) is that the person copying and pasting didn't do any work at all! They just highlighted and ran away with it. They don't have to pay for site maintenance or upkeep, or for the website itself. They are paying for advertisers or sponsors who lose hits because of it.

I think that Mike has come up with a fair way for this to happen. I don't know Mike so there is nothing to be gained by my stating this except that under his rule we can still post the article teaser and a link. Perhaps this will also actually stimulate discussion, something that seems to get lost when an entire article is posted without further comment from the poster.

-Drew

I know it will never happen but there are times I wish there was a cap on the total dollars a candidate was allowed to raise and spend on a campaign. If it were made reasonable a lot of good people who don't have money (but who do have great ideas and a vision that might work) would be able to stay competitive. I don't know, cap it at 10 million. No one is allowed to spend more than 10 Million (that includes their own income as well as contributions) and the world would change.

Special Interest Groups would have to find a candidate to support (as opposed to one to buy) and since more than a few candidates would be on the panel (10 million is doable for someone like Ron Paul) then it would be a real debate and a different election.

Well, nice to dream--but I know it will never happen. Something about the First Amendment and people being able to use money as speech. Still, the two party system is a mess right now. Whether you are conservaive/liberal/independent/Green Party/Socialist/Constitutionalist I think we can all agree that the more voices, the better.

Oh well, back to the choices at hand.

I think we'll soon see President McCain.

-Drew

Amazing, may he rest in something that looks and feels like peace but not without a few punches thrown his way before making the journey. There is a time and there is a place to judge a man's life. None of us are immune to the want to reflect and sometimes that reflection brings up some critical points. But Heston wasn't a bad guy. Yeah, he was pro NRA and he was by all accounts conservative in his thoughts but the man isn't dead 24 hours and already there are hack-attempts to try to make him look bad. And then when someone is asked to provide examples of that they disappear. Nice, really!

-Drew

I think it cuts both ways. I am fortunate (and I do my best never to forget that) in that I have a good job right now in a field (health care) that isn't likely to slow down anytime soon. But I've also been in jobs where making ends meet each month was tough. What gets me is not those struggling to make things work. I feel for those folks and I know they are doing the best they can. What gets me is when a buddy of mine driving the biggest pick-up a person can legally drive complains about gas prices even though he rarely ever hauls anything in his truck. I get sick of listening to people decry the economy while watching TV on a 42 inch HD TV they bought on credit. And I get really tired of people talking about how they can barely afford milk while spending 15 minutes a day in line at the local coffee stand at $3.90 a pop.

Carrying debt on houses and cars I get. Carrying debt when emergencies occur is also practical an sometimes needed. But if you are in to Visa for 15K for a jet ski and a new entertainment center it is a bit tough for me to take you seriously when you then complain about a weakened economy.

I realize that is not most people and this response is not directed at anyone here.

-Drew

Yes, Madison, I should have taken the time to read more. That it was a tactic that worked for the Republicans doesn't mean it is one that will work for the Democrats and I would have taken Republicans to task for attacking McCain on these grounds just as much as I would Dems. But still, you are right, I should have read more. I will work to do that Madison, work to read through your cut and paste (aka dearth of ideas) world here at JSH.

Cheers!

Drew

It isn't a dumb question anymore than it is a loaded one. People can and do look at faith in God in many ways. How is it that there aren't times when it appears that God does indeed tease those who profess to love God most? The parents who go to church on a regular basis, who live that message on every day of the week (not just on Sunday) who give of their income, who recognizing they are imperfect still do what they can only to have a child born with a terminal disease. It is neither dumb or loaded to ask if that does not look like God teasing them. It is even easier to ask when one considers how evil (or anti-moral behavior) seems to be allowed to prosper.

Perhaps there will be a day when all of faith is understood but that won't be a day here on earth. In the meantime, I have and will continue to ask questions, seek to understand how people reconcile their faith with the reality of what we see every day and how we can marry those things in a way that doesn't leave us cynical and without hope.

-Drew

Well we seem to be selective in our indignation as it applies to outsourcing. Every one of us is using a computer to communicate here and most of those computers are assembled overseas. But as we concede, in the same breath, that AT&Ts outsourcing is somehow more deserving of our vitriolic outrage.

But that isn't even the point. Americans (myself very much included) are rather predictable in our thinking when it comes to what we buy. What if tomorrow morning every product at your local Wal*Mart was priced to the American made standard? Prices would be much higher as the companies that sold goods to Wal*Mart would have to sell their product at a higher prices. American made goods in mass would be made by Union shops and so Wal*Mart would in turn pass the prices off to the end user.

How many of us would move from Wal*Mart on to the next store especially if that store used overseas manufacturing resulting in a significant cost savings? Most of us. I do virtually no shopping at Wal*Mart but that has more to do with not being able to stand the crowds (and the moronic things that Wal Mart crowds tend to do) than it does a geo-political ethic.

I guess in the end I'm just wondering where the line really should be drawn?

-Drew

Well Madison, I am surprised by this one, that you've taken this approach to going after McCain.

John McCain served honorably in a war a great number of people ran to Canada to avoid. We can debate the merits of the conflict (as technically it was not a war declared by Congress) but it's interesting to me that you pick this as your issue. It was in fact two Democrats (JFK and LBJ) that got us going in that war. Some have tried to lay all of the war on Nixon and while there is no doubt that Nixon was a terrible president in many ways, it was a conflict that was basically entered in to by Democrats.

The website you linked to is an odd little site but clearly it will back up what you believe and allow you to continue your somewhat interesting practice of cut and paste.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, McCain was a POW for a number of years, tortured and finally sent home.

But really, keep doing what you are doing. Going after McCain for his military service will backfire so badly and if it catches on (it won't because neither Hillary or Obama have dared to go after him on that, and you know, there is a reason for that) it will all but ensure that he is elected.

-Drew

I respect your opinion but don't understand how you can reach the conclusion that they appear to have done what they could. By all accounts Madeline would have been showing sings and symptoms of being ill for at least a few weeks and then she began to slip into a coma. That she had family members (uncles and aunts) calling EMS and law to try to get help seems to me an indicator that they were ignoring her symptoms. Now, I hear you about the cost of medical care, but again that is no excuse. I work for a hospital (a very small one) who last year gave over 2.1 million dollars to "charity care" in other words, those who could not pay. This little girl needed insulin not a double bypass.

And I did judge them but on behalf of children. The legal system should as well (render unto Caesar....) in that they did not provide basic care for their daughter.

I agree with you that this is sad, tragic and all of the words one can conjure up to describe the ordeal. What is tough is that it was preventable.

Turn over things to God??? Fine, no issue but did it not dawn on them that much like God gave the water for thirst, and food for hunger that he might have provided medical experts for, medical situations?

-Drew

You might be on to something here. Many thought that Neville Chamberlain was on the right track with that cranky guy arming Germany to the teeth back in the mid-thirties when he suggested that Hitler would provide "peace for our time." Chamberlain was wrong. Many also thought that Reagan would take us to war with the USSR--he didn't. Many thought that we should stay out of WWII and one can't help but think that if we had gotten involved when Churchill all but begged us to, countless lives might have been saved and a few less concentration camps might have been built.

History is best judged as history. It takes time and distance from the issue to "see" the entire picture. I'm not suggesting here in any way that everything that has happened in Iraq has been positive and we don't know yet what that region will look like ten years from now. But just because something isn't popular doesn't mean it is wrong.

Let's not forget that there was also a time when 81% or more of people thought that man would never walk on the moon, that a black man was inferior to a white man and that there was nothing wrong with segregated drinking fountains.

-Drew

All,

I did not see that this story had been posted by another member at the time I posted mine. I've commented on that post and let the author know that if either he or the mods feel like this is too much duplication, I'll be happy to remove mine. I'm sorry for the redundancy--I did more of an op/ed on the event but I wasn't trying to be purposefully duplicative.

-Drew

Spqr: I did not see that you had posted this story. I posted an article I wrote in response to this story but if you request or if the mods feel that it is duplication, I'll happily take it down. Sorry for the redundancy--I did not see yours.

Best,
Drew

I wrote this article after reading about Madeline in a story that made its way to the AP wires. She lived in Wisconsin at the time of her death which was several weeks ago.

-Drew

Madeline Neumann is dead. She was just eleven years old. Her death was not the result of a car accident caused by a driver under the influence or of a tragic accident. She died at the hands of her unscrupulously pious parents and their failure to ensure treatment for a very real (but completely treatable) medical condition called diabetic ketoacidosis. The condition left Madeline's body in an insulin deficient state and as she began to suffer she would have displayed a number of hard to ignore symptoms including excessive thirst, nausea, vomiting, fatigue, and loss of appetite. Despite Madeline's condition the Neumanns played it cool, turning the entire issue over to the healing abilities of God. Madeline Neumann is dead.

After the death of their daughter most people would expect to find the Neumanns broken and consumed by a sickening sense of guilt, wishing more than anything that they could go back and live again the days leading up to their daughter's death. Guess again. Dale and Leilani Neumann (Madeline's parents) not only placed the health and life of their daughter in the hands of God but also seem pretty comfortable placing the consequences of their gross dereliction of parental responsibility in the same hands. Leilani Neumann made it clear after their daughter's death that only their faith in God is giving them strength. What arrogance!

Interestingly, Dale Neumann did perform CPR on Madeline "as soon as the breath of life left" Madeline's body. What a guy! What is truly ironic about his performing CPR is that up until that moment he didn't seem particularly concerned with Madeline's deteriorating condition. One has to wonder why he (a man who had ignored his daughter's suffering up to the point respiratory failure) suddenly felt moved to engage in a crude but potentially life saving medical procedure after having ignored medical care (not to mention reason) during the week leading up to her death. Scarier still is that the Neumanns aren't "howl at the moon crazy." They don't belong to an organized religion that shuns medical care nor do they align themselves with people who are blatantly distrustful of doctors. In fact according to the Neumanns they didn't have anything against doctors at all. Wonderful, but the next step is actually utilizing them when your 11 year old child is slipping into a coma. The fact that the Neumanns don't have anything against modern medicine gives way to loathing them more, not less. The weren't anti-medicine and yet still their little girl is dead because they did not seek out medical care.

As a result of Madeline's death there will be an investigation. Some of the Neumann's extended family (and on behalf of Madeline) attempted to intervene but their efforts--while practical and entirely appropriate--did not in the end save Madeline's life. Dale and Leilani aren't too worried about the investigation however because again they have put that in God's hands. "We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do," stated Lielani Neumann.

No, they didn't. They ignored the suffering of an 11 year old child who needed her parents to love and protect her and to make sure she received medical care. They employed 14th century faith in the face of 21st century medicine and they don't seem the least bit phased by the stupidity or cruelty of such an act. God did not fail Madeline Neumann. Conversely the parents God trusted with the care of this child failed spectacularly.

Had Leilani and Dale Neumann failed to provide food, water, or shelter, they would have been jailed for neglect. Had they physically abused her (and here one could argue that they did) their children would have been removed from their home. In this case failing to provide medical care is no different.

Madeline Neumann was robbed of a life. She won't get the chance to develop her own beliefs nor will she be able to decide what--if any--faith she might have wanted to practice. She died not because every attempt was made to keep her alive and because those attempts failed. She is dead because no attempt was made and when nothing is attempted, failure is a rather predictable result.

Dale and Leilana Neumann have other children. First let's all get together in hopes that the remaining children don't catch a cold or begin to develop a staph infection requiring even rudimentary medical care. But let's also hope that their living children are removed from their care and that future parental visits occur in a setting which requires visitors to sign in and have their belongings searched.

There is no good here, no big picture moral lesson. And this isn't just about the abuse of faith. This is about parents not protecting their child and about the result of that failure. Dale and Leilani Neumann should be ashamed of their inaction and of their failure to protect and provide for their child. Belief in God does not give parents the right to ignore a child's suffering in favor of clumsily fobbing off that responsibility in the name of any faith.

Madeline Neumann is dead. A death caused by deplorable parents and their silly beliefs that led to murderous neglect.

-Drew

http://acynicsresponse.blogspot.com/2008/03/death-by-faith.html