I can see that you have never been to the Middle East, Miles, nor know
any of 'them' personally.

I hope that someday you have the chance to do so. I think you will be
very surprised.

Oceans

Congrats on becoming a grandfather, Zap!



Oceans

Hi!

A couple of hints:

1. Post a real picture.

2. Give people a sense of who you are in the forums. This is really
where friends are first made and curiosity sparked. Generally, email
follows....

3. Just because people are on dating sites does not mean they want to
get hit cold.

4. And, yup, patience. Being patient is a sign that you are serious, and
that you want to do it right.

Hope this helps...



Oceans

Three bags and three beers!



Oceans

Mike, my thanks to you and the site for all your great work. Glitches
are inevitable, so don't worry about it.

If there were some way to list all the threads we have posted to, or
that someone else has posted to, that would be very helpful....

Many thanks to all, and to this wonderful JSH community.



Oceans

Thanks for the info, Spider.

Oceans

Miles -- the Israelis have some 7,000 to 11,000 Palestinians under some
form of illegal detention. To say nothing of those who are killed by
Israeli air and ground strikes. If the seizure of one Israeli soldier
justifies invasion of a country, think about that the seizure of such
numbers of Palestinians justifies.

The US did not hold Israel back in its invasion and bombing of Lebanon,
it stood aside. The Israeli invasion ground to a halt because Hizbollah
fought back and caught the Israelis by surprise. Do check out the work
of the current Israeli commission that is in the process of analyzing
what went, from the Israeli perspective, wrong with their invasion. A
lot of their material is on-line, and their is a good discussion of it
in the pages of Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post, also on-line.

Spider -- re. Bible versions, what is 'NIV or NASB'?

Thanks,
Oceans

Dawn and Kim



Oceans

One of the many ironies of the Bush/neocon administration is that having
asserted the importance of 'introducing' democracy in the Middle East,
they are now backpedaling as quickly as they can, because in free
elections the population is selecting leadership that opposes the US and
Israeli occupations in the Middle East.

My sense is that it is the Israeli tail that is wagging the US dog when
it comes to policy in the Middle East. It is not so much that the US
uses Israel to oppose Hamas, but that Israel uses the US to oppose Hamas
and others.

It is not that Israel is more powerful that the US (!), but that Israeli
goals and actions are highly focused and coherent, while those of the US
are incoherent, diffuse, and internally contradictory.


Oceans

Good morning, everyone!

Back to the role of the Rothschilds....

The Rothschilds had their fingers in Palestine, too.

In the 1880s, Edmond de Rothschild funded some of the first Zionist
settlements in Palestine -- three farming communities. These led to the
massive Zionist immigration that made possible the military seizure of
much of Palestine.

Oceans

Morning, everyone!



Hmmmmmmm...... I'm about ready Alex!

Washington, Boston (pick up my first mate), Ireland (just what port,
Andrea?), Amsterdam (alt. Beirut), Azores, Malta.... Panama.... Who
else?



Oceans

Thanks!

Sweet dreams!

And the gasoline!

Ciao, Keys.

Good luck to you....


Oceans

Philosopher -- that does not sound like Taba at all. Maybe you are
thinking of Camp David II?

Yes, Iranians who supported the Shah think that things were better under
the Shah, but they were only so for the elites in the country; he was
one of the most brutal dictators in the last years of his rule. Look
into SAVAK for more info on that.

Hamas does not call for an Islamic state. Remember that many
Palestinians are Christian. yes, they do not accept the existence of
Israel: Israel seized Palestine and Hamas seeks to liberate it. It might
be possible for Israel and Hamas to have negotiations and reach a
genuine compromise, but Israel has taken the stand that Hamas must agree
with it BEFORE negotiations. Of course, this isn't going to happen.

Remember that Israel now has a right-wing Likkudist-lite government. If
Labor gets its act together and Barak becomes PM, the Israelis will
start talking with Hamas with no problems.

If you read my postings, you will see that I do not blame all our
problems in the Middle East on Bush. Clinton and Albright and the
handful of neocons who were in his administration (I've explained this
and named them elsewhere at length in other threads, if you are
interested) took a hard turn toward Israel and effectively brought the
hopes for peace to a halt.

But the damage that Bush has done is unprecedented, and he is in power
now, as are many neocons. So we focus inevitably on Bush and his
problems and damage.

Don't worry! I criticize anyone I feel has made mistakes, regardless of
the labels you wish to put on them!

It is not criticism of the US that is weakening the US internationally,
it is the policies that the US is following. As long as we follow those
policies we will continue to get weaker and weaker. My posts are
intended in part to teach people what is going on and why, as I
explained above, and to learn what is on the minds of others. The
people of this country have a moral obligation to learn and to influence
the policies of the US so that we stop self-destructing, or playing into
the hands of false 'friends'.

If you put a label on me, you will not be able to understand what I am
saying, or why.

I do understand your frustration, and share in it.



Oceans

When are you setting off, Alex? Back to Darfur/Chad?

I think it would be good for the world for the US to become
isolationist, so I guess we agree, bro, though maybe for different
reasons.

With trade (manufacturing, mining, assembly, distribution and
consumption) now global I don't think that we could successfully become
isolationist. We are now dependent on foreign production for
consumption, and our our remaining high tech industries are dependent
ont he economic growth of foreign markets.

And for international trade we need international treaties and laws,and
for that we need -- you got it -- international organizations.

So much as I would like to see the US turn inwards, stop bullying
others, and focus on getting its own house in order I don't see us
withdrawing from the international community.

Of course, that doesn't mean that we have to continue being the world's
bully.... To the contrary.



Oceans

The President of Palestine, Mahmoud Abbas, has just suspended the
government and Parliament, which is run by Hamas. The Prime Minister is
from the majority party, Hamas.

Gaza is entirely under control of Hamas.

In effect this leaves the president and Fatah precariously established
in Ramallah in the West Bank, and Gaza under Hamas.

The Israeli plan to provoke violence and divide the Palestinians and
destroy their democracy has worked. The US State Department, USAID, and
Bush administration have abetted this, in the same way that the US stood
by silently when Israel last invaded Lebanon.

This is a shameful moment for all concerned. Blood is on their hands,
whether they pulled the triggers or not.



Oceans