I wonder why O'Reilyy, a debate pro, could not do beter against
Letterman, a comdeian....

Actually, I lie, I don't wonder at all

Oceans

Morning, everyone!

I'm meeting deadlines these days so can't post. Redy, I have not
forgotten your excellent questions.

Imkeys -- thanks for your thoguhts, and I'll get back, too.

Fanta and Andrea stop having so much fun. I'm JEALOUS!

Alex, sweet one....

Harry, move over a bit! Where's my pole? You know I'll bring my own
bait, if I can just get this hook out of my mouth.

Red Wine, we will have to go back and review history if you think that
Palestine and the Palestinians never existed! In the meantime, could
you dig back and see the Palestine population stats I posted some time
ago? If you are up for reading things I can post several history
sources that are pretty good.

Greetings to all, and have a super day!



Oceans

tHERE YOU ALL ARE, GIGGLY-WIGGLY. And me working my ass off for world
peace....

Morning, everyone!



Oceans

Hi, everyone,

I think we've covered the USS Liberty story from a loty of angles, so
this will duplicate a lto of what we have referred to. But because it is
from the survivors of the Israeli attack it bears special attention.
They have formed an organization that is trying to get the US government
to stop covering up for Israel, and complete a formal inquiry.

It does contain information that I have not seen elsewhere.

RIP to those who were killed. Those who survive demand justice for
themselves and their comrades.

Here is their petition: The source is given at the end.

-----

'USS Liberty' veterans demand investigation

Jun. 3, 2007 12:00 AM

Conclusions submitted in October 2003 to the Office of the U.S.
Secretary of Defense by the USS Liberty Veterans Association, Inc., in
demanding a congressional investigation into the aborted rescue during
the attack of the USS Liberty and subsequent alleged cover-up.

The group also calls for a new Naval Court of Inquiry and that June 8 be
officially recognized as USS Liberty Remembrance Day.

1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance,
Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the
world's most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173
wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of 70 percent, in a crew of
294);

2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during
which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS
Liberty's bridge and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship,
causing
821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate
30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking
Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio
channels;

3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of
torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and
stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the
Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three
of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by
survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a
deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew;
evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of
State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA
Director Richard Helms, former NSA Directors Lt. Gen. William Odom, USA
(Ret.), Adm. Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA
deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Maj. Gen. John Morrison, USAF (Ret.);
and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder
against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;

6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately
prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by
recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under
attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by
statements of Capt. Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft
carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet
carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in
American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an
American ship was under attack;

7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction
through the heroic efforts of the ship's captain, William L. McGonagle
(MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened
with "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they exposed the truth;
and were abandoned by their own government;

8. That due to the influence of Israel's powerful supporters in the
United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this
attack from the American people;

9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United
States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has
never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no
surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly
testify about the attack;

10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in
American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now
supported by statements of Rear Adm. Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former
Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Capt. Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.),
the chief counsel to the Navy's 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;

11. That the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House
cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people
to the present day and is a national disgrace;

12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected
officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any
foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel's
interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy,
evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent
official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of
Americans and the security of the United States.



More information: www.ussliberty.org

Zap, yeah, you are right. A wise CEO listens....

For the record: I do not 'hate' Bush; I do have an utter contempt for
his inetllectual ability and leadership, but I see him as a victim of
the people he brought in to 'advise' him, and who are really running the
show.

There is no doubt that he will go down in history as the worst president
in my memory, and am sure a strong case can be made that he will go down
as the worst ever. Of course, his many weaknesses and mistakes are
amplfiied by the power that the US now wields. We may have had worse
presidents but at a time when America's power was small, so it didn't
make much of a difference on the rest of the world. But the US is
powerful, for the time being, and our mistakes can take a massive toll
on the US itself, and on the rest of the world.

This is not a happy time for the world. Eighteen more months will bring
us a new administration; we have yet to see how good it will prove to
be, but in any case the US faces decades of work to correct the effects
of the Bush administration, to say nothing of the lives we have ruined
for generations to come overseas.

The neocons will be rotting hell long before the task of righting the
wrongs of the Bush administration is accomplished, if they ever are.

I do not envy the next President, whoever he may be.

And yes, I think Al Gore would be as unpopular as Bush had Al Gore doen
the same things Bush has. But I think it is HIGHLY unlikely that Gore
would have done any of those things!





Oceans

Yes, he did say that, many many times. Ironic isn't it -- what a
self-fulfilling assertion.

There were many of us who tried to advise this administration on how to
avoid these obvious mistakes, but the neocons thought they knew it all,
and in any case peace and good relations with the rest of the world was
NOT what they wanted, so making mistakes or not was not important to
them. I do not see President Bush as a neocon; I do think he became a
puppet to them. They flatter him into thinking he is a 'strong leader',
and Bush laps it up, and does their bidding. We see this pattern
manifest itself with each account of the inner workings of the
administration.

18 more months to go.



Oceans

It is so interesting how these massive myths get embedded in our
culture, isn't. Another one is about Columbus 'discovering' America. We
now know that he was but one in a long string of adventurers who came
here, to say nothing of the extraordinary explorations of the 'native'
people before all of them.

Another set of myths, far more damaging than the Columbus one and more
akin to our current 'The Muslims are out to kill us' nonsense is the set
that was developed by European settlers in America to justify the
dispossession of native Americans.

I learned a few weeks ago that the British in Nova Scotia put a $3 a
head bounty on the Mi'kmaq natives -- for each man, woman, and child,
and that they paid off when they were brought some body part of the ones
killed -- scalp, ears, etc.

Myth has a horrendous power, and the difficult thing about it is that it
becomes embedded in our brains, our very language, as well as the rites
and symbols on which our society operates. Very hard to root out 'bad
myth'.

If anyone wants to see myth at work, look at the symbology on our dollar
bill! It is amazing stuff...



Oceans

Many thanks, Spider. Good morning!

I realize that I may be asking you to do some research in the Bible and
appreciate your doing so.

When do these seven years of tribulation statrt, and what is involved?

The battle of armageddon involves the armies of Persia, Russia, the
Middle East, the Jews? Others?

And it is the Chinese who will then take down the anti-Christ? (I
assume that Satan is the anti-Christ, right?)

I am realizing that you are using some of the these terms -- like 'seven
years of tribulation' as a bit of short-hand. You know what they mean,
but they don't have content yet for me. They are certainly suggestive,
and pique my curiosity! I thank you for hanging in here.



Oceans

Redy, a good morning to you!

Speaking for myself, thank you, thank you, thank you for wading through
the thread....you are an angel


I get so tired of the opinion-slinging fly-bys.

I think your question its top-notch and will try and give it some
thought as you are asking a large and important question.

I'll get back in a bit....

It is tea for me right now! A wonderful jasmine tea with crysanthemum
petals. Years ago I wrote a book on Red Zinger -- an intense month of
many many mugs each day. The moment I got the manuscript sent off, I
suddenly couldn't stand even the whiff of Red Zinger.

Off to ponder a bit....



Oceans

And what if one personality has a food allergy that another one
craves???

What if one likes chess and the other TV?

I think we have to treat Gary with more kindness and scientific
curiosity, no? Lots of questions to probe!



Oceans

I wish I could convince myself that the size and passion of the US
anti-war movement of the 70s had nothing to do with the draft, and that
its absence now regarding Iraq has nothing to do with the absence of the
draft....



Oceans

Cherub, there is as much logic and far more humanity in what you said
than I have seen in the senior levels of this administration these last
years....





Oceans

If a person has multiple personality disorder, does he have to eat for
each one?

Before he gets chased off again, I'd like to ask him where he finds the
time to do it? He may be privy to a vast secret that would benefit us
all....



Oceans

Yeah, I do know the picture you are referring to. He is looking over his
right shoulder, kind of looking like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed when the
Pakistani-CIA black team rousted him at 3:00 am, right?

Poor fellow. Can you imagine how desperate he must be to fight his way
back here?

I can't understand people who have multiple fake profiles. Like, where
in the world do they get the time to service them all? And to think they
may be doing this at other sites, as well.

Is there supposed to be a big battle (Armageddon???) and then the second
coming? The Jews get destroyed?

I was talking about this with a friend a while back and he was saying
things like this.

Thanks....

Hey, Zap!

How did you make him in the first place?

He comes, he goes. You know that game at the boardwalks, Whack-a-Mole?



Oceans

Gypsy, are you serious? You can easily get someone's address just from
their phone number?

Hmmmmm.....



Oceans

Thanks Chibear!

Steph, I think his idea of bringing a friend with you is a good one too.

If the guy is worth anything he will have no problem at all with that,
nor will he pressure you to make it a 'double date'.

It seems to me like to had the right instinct, Steph. You said you were
shocked when he proposed meeting so quickly. I would say, Trust that
instinct of yours! If it doesn't feel right, don't do it. You will
always have great opportunities to meet guys, so no need to leap at
every one...

You did OK, no harm done, so chin up and learn for the next time around,
eh?



Oceans

You there, Imkeys?


Oceans

What does it say?

I've tried reading the Bible and it seems pretty confusing to me -- but
I am no expert, or even amateur on it.

Like Alada was saying, it seems like you could go through the Bible and
sort of pick out bits here and there and give it any interpretation you
wanted. But what do I know?

Spider...you are citing this notion that Arab armies, Russia and Iran
will attack Israel -- this is exactly the kind of stuff I am asking
about -- it seems right on target re. the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

How does the prophecy then go regarding what happens after they attack?

Thanks,

Oceans