http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1181570271436&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8POLAD02&show_article=1

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1270455,00.html

Hamas is in the process of violently taking over the Gaza strip. They
are dragging members of Fatah into the streets and killing them. What
will this mean for the peace process, is it over? What does this mean
to the Palestinian people?

you are being a bit dramatic....lol


those they dragged into the streets were done illegally and by a
specific person who was extracting revenge for attrocities even worse
from those people.

the news wants you to think all kinds of things...wait and listen

they are sensationalizing and deliberately trying to instigate somethin
akin to civil war ...but it is not civil war...not yet...

and it is not as it appears


respectfully

it may not be as it appears

but it sounds as if you are

supporting vigilante justice

-----------------------------

what makes that any differnt

than the assumption of wmd

and extermination of Iraqi people

by their the iragi govt

and the united states not caring whether

there was a world judgement against them or not

other than the scale

the process seems the same

----------------------------------------

i am not condoning everything the united states does

but lets not condemn the states and then praise another that does the
same

Can you suggest a news source where I can get the truth from? I
honestly can't believe that every news feed is lying, but I guess it
could happen. If you google gaza right now, they are saying that Gaza
is almost completely under Hamas control now and that people are being
dragged out of their homes and killed in the streets. I haven't seen a
single source that suggests it was a one time incident or that it was an
act of retribution. I have seen quotes from Hamas supporters who are
calling for the deaths of the "collaborators".

http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=9270
-------------------------------------------------------------
What is happening in Gaza today is political immorality in the real
sense of the word on the part of both Hamas and Fatah. People are taken
from their homes, killed and thrown to the street. Others are thrown off
high-rise buildings alive. Hamas is busy talking about "traitors" and
Abu Mazen is warning against a "collapse." What treason and what
collapse could be worse than what we are seeing in Gaza today?

The death toll on both sides is well above fifty. Fighting has even
reached hospitals for example in Beit Hanoun Hospital. On account of the
dangerous situation, humanitarian organizations ceased to provide aid,
describing what is taking place as “war crimes.”

Just think about one atrocity committed in Gaza, which was the killing
of Mohammed Sweirki. With his hands and legs tied, the 28-year-old cook
for the President of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, was
thrown off the roof of a 15-storey building.
-------------------------------------------------------------

So respectfully, from what I've read, I am not being dramatic. Please,
if you have anothe source, share it.

no , not another source... and i don't condone what they do.
that was not my point. my point was mostly there is much more going on.
remember i was Maronite/Druze...my political affiliations were also
brutal back in the day, the Phalangists were quite a force...as far as i
am concerned it is just what humans do ...Fatah and Hammas are cut from
the same cloth as Hezbollah...all supported by syria...but now we have
fatah sleeping with isreal and so hammas got upset...but all of them are
no better than each other....sigh

from where i sit it's the bad guys against the bad guys

so let them go at it.

no one ever cares about the innocents

previous post

those they dragged into the streets were done illegally and by a
specific person who was extracting revenge for attrocities even worse
from those people.

-------------------------------

sorry but read this as support for what they were doing

again sorry if i was wrong

yeah, it is a mess.

Parts of the story we are not routinely seeing being reported:

1. Black teams operating in Gaza that provoke 'sectarian' fighting (same
as the black teams that did that between Sunni and Shi'i in Iraq -- wait
until they start in on the Kurds)

2. The complicity of the international community in making it impossible
for HAMAS, the duly elected party, to run the Palestinian government.
Under the Quartet and the US, the Palestinian government was starved of
funds, trans-border movement was essentially stopped between Gaza and
the West Bank, the intrenational banking community was bullied into
dropping Palestinian accounts, and HAMAS was told that they would be
isolated until they accepted Israeli demands of the Palestinians.

These two elements are key to understanding why the rage has built up in
Gaza. Remember, it is the most densely populated area in the world; it
is in effect a concentration camp run by the Israelis.

Of course we are outraged by the killing, -- of course -- but I suggest
that the outrage should more properly be applied to the international
community that has allowed these conditions to exist for decades, and to
those who sneak in and light the fuse.



Oceans

they have so many plots against one another ...oh oh oh you have no
idea how the Arabic minds work...they are so devious and extracting,
that's more than half the problem, each of the factions involved have
become so enmeshed, with wounds on both sides/all sides to children and
family and loved ones...and so everyone is fueled by grief and pain and
outrage....

it's a horrible mess... and no one forgets...they are passionate people
all of the middle eastern people are amazingly wonderful and generous,
what you have here is what happens to people who are so attached to
their passions , who are locked in beliefs and blinded by pride....

as beautiful as one can be so can they be evil, it's the level that you
play on...and they invented this game so i guess it's no wonder they
have us playing on their board.
Syria , just the name alone conjures mysteries still for me and the
madness of the markets and the life that sprawls out in webs and
labyrinths, with ancient smells and noises and songs and wails and
lovers all tangled in the whispers of ancestors...she was always
sinister to me even as a child before the rumours and the assurances...

when we call out a country or a people for their crimes, we have to
remember it is also true that a whole underground system works to
manipulate governments and or even work apart and covertly , so i can't
say Syria is the evil monster , but i can say the factions running their
own agendas from within syria are making her complicit and she will have
to rein in her instigators now and try to look like she had no
involvement.

kinda like the US in Irak, with contractors that seek and destroy .
then the US is not responsible for how they do it and they get paid not
to get caught.lot's of collateral damage here. sigh


when so much blood is spilled over and over and over it becomes harder
and harder to cut your losses and swallow your pride, especially when
they are SO PASSIONATE.

so the moral of the story

it wasn't worth it. find another way to honor your dead rather than
killing in their name.

yep

the world is afraid of committing to anything
specifically if it may become violent

everyone is concerned about the one that may get hurt
that are not involved (i agree this is terrible thing)

but what about the many many more that will be hurt if situations around
the world are not brought under control

no tot a one world government

but a multinational force to police atrocities against humanity
such as genocide of a sect of people in a country

if the world would begin worrying about the world and all
supplied manpower and equipment in percentage of their
population and land mass then maybe just maybe there
would be enough money left to help with disease and hunger

but hey what do i know

bravo bravo

very good post alex

hugz if you accept them

Alex:

"find another way to honor your dead rather than
killing in their name"

Well said....

Adj: an international police force/peace-keeping. Yup; let's learn a
lesson from the Canadians, who know how to do this....



Oceans

Re. the international police force/peace-keepers...

The Palestinians have many times going back years begged for such a
force, but Israel has refused.

Oceans

The takeover looks pretty violent to me. I would think it is
unacceptable for Hamas to behave in such a way. To condone it is much
like condoning the ayatollah takeover in Iran so many years back. I do
not consider that to have been acceptable either. But the world
permitted it to occur and permitted it to remain in place. Have a look
at the place it has brought us to now. Looks pretty bad from my
perspective. If the world allows this violent coup to stand the
situation will become worse and worse.

Already Hamas refuses to deal with Israel, even as Israel has made
efforts to find a peaceful solution. The Palestinians have never
bargained in good faith, now as they get closer Hamas can not accept
progress.

Nobody here can see the hand of Iran in this, or in Lebanon or in
Afghanistan or in Iraq. Only by stopping Iranian support for these
regional conflicts will the tension be reduced and there is only one way
to stop Iran. Just a hint here for the pacifists, negotiation is not
going to do it. It is like a bully on the street. Somebody has to take
some action. When they do take action do not be so fast to accuse the
police of being the bully. I say that with very little hope that can
occur. If the United States takes some steps to clean up the Iran
problem, people will line up to say the US was wrong for doing so and
even to blame the US, calling it evil this and that. It is shameful, but
it will happen.

Right now I feel sorry for the Palestinian people. With no real sources
of food and resources in their own land, and with isolation because of
the violence, I suspect many innocent people there will be starving and
going through numerous hardships related to the situation. Hamas seems
to have no regard for any of this. This is all opinion of course.

Philosopher

Are you familiar with the Taba 2000-2001 events?



Oceans

Philosopher

The US has killed far more Iraqis and the Israelis far more Palestinians
than Hamas is killing Fatah members. Would you then agree that those are
not acceptable and should not be allowed to stand either?

Horrible as it is, the Hamas action against Fatah members is not a
'coup' -- Hamas runs the government. It would be more accurate to say
that Hamas is suppressing a rebellion.


Oceans

i think i need enlightened oceans

Philosopher

Regarding Iran: are you a supporter of the Shah and SAVAK?



Oceans

Oceans5555,

"It would be more accurate to say that Hamas is suppressing a
rebellion."

That is a really strange position, since Hamas attacked first. I just
can't get my mind around the mindset of people who willingly support
genocidal and murderous madmen.

peace process?! what a joke. this war has been going on since the 40s
many would say even earlier)and has never stopped.

it is the Hatfields and the McCoys - only less civil and
with two divisions of Keystone Cops fighting each other,
and the Three Stooges who keep swapping sides every other
day. OMG

pointless and tragic