sorry I am choosy on who I drink coffee with

i would bet money on if you dropped 2 reporters (1 for and 1 against) into the same war zone and both saw the same thing...they would still right different points of view

and...if I'm not mistaken...the soldiers responsible are being tried

I am fairly certain they are being tried due to the fact all those horrible pictures found there way out into what is left of the free world. It wasnt like it was some internal investigation that rooted these abuses out. They had to do something to even pretend to be humane

wow...guess we can agree to disagree then

not a problm but d o you think the abuses would continue had these photos not surfaced? someone in auhority had to have know and approved. I think they call it "enhanced interigation" rather Orwellian dont ya think?

i think they may have..yes. unless some tells or the pics come out...if the higher ups there are involved then how else would anyone know and stop it...which they are dealing with it


but like i said...the media is a tornado and can spin anything they want into any direction. goes for all points of view

madison...all I'm saying is I've seen people take what the media says as the gospel. those that are actually there for that reason are the best source...even if they have different opinions

Wait wait wait wait.....ok.....iraqis are out of jobs? How the hell is that? They have more money now circulating in their economy thanks to our government paying them to do jobs, and buying their products. Most don't have electricity? Ok that's bullcrap. Most do, yes some don't, but we have engineers working on that. The people that are in poverty now were in poverty before we got there. Most of that supposed million, that died since we've been there have died from un military-related incidences. I.E. Car crashes, old age, uncurable diseases, other forms of crime. Most of the rest are killed by insurgents. Do we run torture chambers all over the place? NO! Most of the soldiers that were brought on trial for torture never got a fair trial. And frankly if you think that standing someone in a corner for a few hours or keeping someone up for a day or two is torture than its REALLY a good thing you aren't in charge of our military or our enemies would walk all over us. And to compare that sort of "torture" with Saddams version is just plain ludicrous. That's like comparing a kid that steals a candy bar, to someone who just shot his girlfriend in the face. Not even on the same playing field. Iraqis have better health care then they did under Saddam, they have more technology, and no we did not carpet bomb all their factories and workplaces to hell. They are also better nurished. We dont let them starve. Remember this is mostly a humanitarian mission. This is all a media spin. I went there, i saw a duck. The news is trying to tell me it was a pigeon. I'm getting sick of this. The surge worked, Al Sadr is much weaker than any of you would think. Is he a threat? Yes. But if soldiers are left to do their jobs then they will eliminate this threat. Once again, i seem to remember an encounter with this man that left hundreds of his gunmen dead and we only sustained a few injuries. Our biggest enemy is actually Iran, they are backing the insurgents on a much larger scale than the media lets on. Why do we not report this all? Well maybe so no one gets the idea of attacking them as well? I don't know. But things are going much better. Most of the country is controlled by Iraqi military People need to stop freaking out and thinking that soldiers don't know how to do their jobs. This is what they do. You'd be suprised at how much clearer the picture of this mess is when you are sitting on the front line. Peace out. (Sorry rough day)

yep

Ok, this first problem is that this was brought up to the media before it hit the proper authorities. This pretty much insured an unfair trial, and yes, people have pointed out things insome of these pictures that proved them to be tampered with. However, this is not something heard the the court case. The military, when it comes to dealing with anyone that has a lot of pull, is very political. It would be career suicide to stand up for those troops. Not to mention it would have endangered the mission even more. The person that surfaced those photos to the media either didn't care about the mission and soldiers/iraqis, or they are just plain retarded. The proper authorities would have done a proper investigation. Yes they would have been justly charged for any crimes they committed. That's all im gonna say about that. That situation angers me too much for today.

Excellent post Drivin - Thank you and for serving and bringing us the real truth.

Here in eastern NC I am surrounded by military bases - Cherry Point, Camp Lejune, Seymore Johnson, Ft Bragg. What you are saying is exactly what soldiers I know that have been to Iraq are saying.

wow...i didn't know that...i admit

While I respect both of these men, Doc and Driven, I have to disagree.
First off they are very bias. They will not realize the level of brain-washing for years yet, if ever!
Then there is pride, and the need to believe what they are fighting for is worth it.
If not, they could not operate in the environment they are placed in.
Second, being in the moment,
concentrating on the job at hand,
in their small AO (area of operation),
they see only a small part of the whole picture.

I'll tell you something else.
Of the 160,000 troops in Iraq,
only about 40,000 are combat MOS's.
Of those, maybe 15-25,000 are Infantry soldiers!
Infantry are the men scooting down the alley's kicking in doors and searching for the insurgents.
When FOX, CNN, headline News,
whoever, interviews soldiers on TV,
They aint grunts!
Grunts are cruder than that,
grunts arent PC,
and while in a combat area they arent the ones you want your children to hear!
Their are two armies, within the Army,
the grunts,
and then the rest!
Two worlds apart,,,,,,,,
two completely different enviornments!

I thought Michael Moore blew himself up at Mount Rushmoore...

D*** Cheney was right: So? People are stupid and weak and will usually do what makes them feel best. It takes someone with real strength to do what feels bad, but will lead to a better outcome.

I respect what you are saying. Especially since you're talking about the good ole' grunts (Yes Doc, this includes you medics).

<---11B1P (Door kicker)

Anyhow, I see you understand that we do have standardized AO's. Which is true. We had particular sectors we were responsible for. My unit had about3 permanent sectors and different times in Baghdad. I've also operated several times in Sadr City, and Mosul. At the time these were pretty bg hotspots. Yeah, we do see things from a different perspective. Not everyone that says our operation is going well is biased though. It's just what we see. People are trying to tell me that Iraq is in shambles, people are starving to death, and somehow we killed their electricity. I have seen Baghdad in its entirety. I've seen most of Sadr City, and parts of Mosul. All that crap about us making them all poor, us destroying most of their buildings, us destroying electricity, or being responsible for poor health, or us getting rid of their jobs, is simply not true....well, in those places i have mentioned anyway. I was and will always be a grunt. That means that i was one of those guys that pretty much lived outside the wire. I know i spent more time on the streets than i did on any FOB. I knew the media spun things, but i really didn't know how bad until i started reading some of these posts. Yes, i do acknowledge that it works both ways.

Cheers Fanta

Thank You!


Follow me,,
The Queen of Battle!
The Infantry!!!
Lock and Load!!!!!!!!


and thank god for the docs!!

Figured you were a computer warrior. Big talker.

While I respect both of these men, Doc and Driven, I have to disagree.
First off they are very bias. They will not realize the level of brain-washing for years yet, if ever!

:

fanta -

That took a lot of audacity.

I do not see how you can even post to these men. Oh, yea, you can 'hide' behind your PC.

Lame.

Lindyy

I just love how everyone ASSUMES all soldiers are brain washed.