You want to talk about destroying our economy and destroying our credibility in the world? His Presidency nearly did just that! Iran Hostage Crisis was a horrible, HUMILIATING defeat for us.

lol nothing you included proves a single piece of damning evidence. This is all 9/11 fever coming from people like you. Just like Valerie Plame's identity was leaked by RICHARD ARMITAGE, who ADMITTED SUCH, this is a bunch of dead ends as well.

i suppose a judge ruleing that america tortures and violates the geneva convention has no bearing on reality for you. go view the photos I linked and tell me if that is torture and tell me it isnt with a straight face

According to the Times, Bush signed a presidential order in 2002 allowing the National Security Agency to monitor without a warrant the international (and sometimes domestic) telephone calls and e-mail messages of hundreds or thousands of citizens and legal residents inside the United States. The program eventually came to include some purely internal controls - but no requirement that warrants be obtained from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court as the 4th Amendment to the Constitution and the foreign intelligence surveillance laws require.

In other words, no independent review or judicial oversight.

That kind of surveillance is illegal. Period.

The day after this shocking abuse of power became public, President Bush admitted that he had authorized it, but argued that he had the authority to do so. But the law governing government eavesdropping on American citizens is well-established and crystal clear. President Bush's claim that he is not bound by that law is simply astounding. It is a Presidential power grab that poses a challenge in the deepest sense to the integrity of the American system of government - the separation of powers between the legislative and executive branches, the concept of checks and balances on executive power, the notion that the president is subject to the law like everyone else, and the general respect for the "rule of law" on which our democratic system depends.

http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/23279res20051229.html

She is one judge, who has made a political judgement that has no real weight, well besides with people like you, the 9/11 truther crowd.

I dont see the big deal. If we capture a prisoner and lets say there is a bomb thats gonna blow up and kill thousands I personally think torturing the guy to save thousands is a good idea. He is a criminal anyway. What are you gonna do? Say please tell me where the bomb is?

not to mention rulings can be overturned. Sometimes judges are biased.

that would make a nice tv docudrama.....Newswise — Torture is a poor instrument of intelligence gathering, according to a recent study. “Torture doesn’t work under realistic conditions,” says the study’s author, Roger Koppl, a professor of economics at Fairleigh ****inson University. “There are situations in which torture works, but they are rare. Twentieth-century experiences with torture show that it is futile in most cases.”

Koppl argues that torture is useless for intelligence gathering, because governments cannot get around a basic problem. “They cannot make a believable promise to stop torture once the victim tells the truth. Victims know this perfectly well and therefore say anything and everything except what the torturers want to know.” Two problems prevent governments from making a “credible commitment” to stop torture once victims tell the truth. First, “they use torture because they don’t know the truth already. But that means that they can’t recognize the truth when the victim speaks it.” Second, “even if they know they’ve got the truth, the victim is afraid they will keep torturing him anyway.”

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/519416/

well I suggest you go look up the geneva conventions and get an education then you could at least form an honest opinion..........TORTURE IS A VIOLATION OFTHE GENEVA CONVENTIONS END OF STORY.... we hung nazis at Nuremburg for such attrocaties...remember back when america was the good guy? wow I feel like i am talking to a nazi collaborator

And yet, you can provide no example of where this so-called illegal wiretapping is used. I love how in parenthesis you have (AND SOMETIMES DOMESTIC). When that happens the Democratic Congress will go nuts, issue impeachment hearings, but the fact is, NO LAW has been broken. There would be inditements out the wood work with the Democratic majority. And yet there have been, NOT ONE dedicated to this issue. And, even more hilarious, the DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS approved the continuing and furthering of the survelience program.

All that is happening is the monitoring of NON-US CITIZEN communications with US citizens that they have some reason to suspect with reasonable doubt.

What are you scared of?

Funny thing is, you would probably have no problem should the government make private weapons illegal to own. Thing is, you probably support universal healthcare as well, you would allow the US government to have our health records in their hands, control our health and lives.

So, talking to loud to a detainee, that's torture too right? Loud speech can scare a detainee and thus be torture. Wouldn't it be torture to not let someone watch their favorite TV show too? lol, anything can be torture in the Geneva Convention.

I sneezed in your face, welp, that's torture, that's BIOLOGICAL WARFARE TORTURE! lol

Its realy sad that you take human rights so lightly. pathetic even. It shames me you are an AMERICAN

That is a weak smear. I just pointed out to you, incredibly simply, what torture is considered by the Geneva Convention and you mock me.

What is the beginning to torture to you? According to the Geneva Convention, any aggressive form of interrogation as deemed by the detainee is torture. The Geneva Convention is incredibly flawed and if you were a wise man you'd know that.

Actually, according to the Geneva Convention, keeping a detainee in an enclosed cell, cut off from other humans and freedom, is torture.

To me, sleep deprivation, loud music, bright lights, aggressive yelling and verbal battering, are not torture. However, according to the Geneva Convention that can be considered torture.

I even support waterboarding. Caused Khalid Sheik Mohammed to break who then gave us a treasure worth of information that prevented at least two planned terrorist attacks and surely gave us so many names.

Our Special Forces and CIA members, even some FBI agents are waterboarded. If our own are tested with waterboarding the cream of the crop bad dudes can be waterboarded.

madisonman .....

To answer your query, yes. One of the many things that makes you un-American is your distortion of facts. Additionally, since this thread is about whether you are un-American, you take great pleasure in bringing down our president and our government, clearly the actions of one who hates America.

Once again, answering your query as to whether you are un-American, you get off on anything that has to do with the country going down the tubes. You have an agenda, which is clearly un-American. So, once again to answer your question, you are un-American and anti-American.

However, I am amazed that you would start a thread asking the query are you un-American since, if the question has to be asked, then the answer can only be a resounding YES, YOU ARE ANTI-AMERICAN and UN-AMERICAN.

if the hypothetical person in question did set a bomb and they evidence that he did, but they dont know where it is. I wouldn't call that guy a victim.

but then how would they control us? and if they didn't tax the **** out of us, they couldn't fund their over reach

you need to be quiet and go back to funding the machine

I disagree. The president is but a man we hired to care for us. That said this one has done a sorely sorry job of it. Seeing a man for the dictator that he is does not make one un-American, instead it makes them very American. American and dictator should not ever be synonymous and yet with baby shrub it is. Wake up, he has taken us down the toilet and loyalty to a man over your fellow American does not make you more America, I would say it is opposite.

Americans should be better than animals, or at least in my eyes.

the only unamerican people in this country are those who blindly follow the power, trusting it's words. and the folk that think it's unamerican to have a negative opinion of their leaders.


this is america, it's about difference. it's about patriotism. it's not about loyalty to the government.