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Its fine the way it is.
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Most of the founding fathers where diests thats why of the seperation of church and state. That's not true. That is the modern misconception, which has been spun as best able by those who are anti-Christian or dislike the fact that the Founding Father's were so devout in Christianity. If you look at all their personal writings and government writings you will find it full of references to Christianity and Christian God. Many of the Founding Fathers memorized much of the Bible and many, such as the great Patrick Henry, my favorite by the way, read The Bible in its Latin language origin. Many were diests, but very many more were Christians. They simply did not want a State Religion, like The Church of England. That is the only reasons for the Separation of Church and State inclusion in the Constitution. In everything the government was centered around, and found in all government buildings of the time and throughout the 19th, and even early 20th Century you will find Christianity all over the place. Most of the more personalized writings of the Founding Fathers are extremely religious in tone. |
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I was saying 60% as a guess, but I would prolly say its higher. But most people that have gone to college and actually learned, instead of just drinking, could pass with the minimum score. But its sad how this country is deteriorating, but sh1t happens right? I went to high school and i could pass if i refresh my sieve of a memory. |
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The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814 |
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Edited by
adj4u
on
Sun 01/27/08 02:19 PM
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are we speaking of citizenship test
i got a 95 took it as a dare in a thread here months ago not so hard but as far as foreign born prez i am beginning to think that if they have been a citizen for 35 years why not (after all native born need to be a citizen for 35 years) besides way to many u s citizens have become way to lax in the RESPONSIBILITY of living in a ""so called"" free country after all how many liberties will you give up for a FALSE sense of security |
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"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
John Adams This country was founded by diets. |
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The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814 If I had the desire I would drown you in quotes by the Founding Fathers overwhelmed with Christian references, however I do not, and if I did with a few I would be limiting it so incredibly significantly. I have a B.A. in History, focused nearly solely around Revolution history and the Founding Fathers, I have read more books on them and more letters, most on microfilm, than I can begin to remember. The majority were very devoutly Christian. The only reason for the Separation of Church and State, just like non-US born citizens can become President, are directly because of what they experienced in England. And, solely that. |
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technically then, only Native Americans should be able to run for president...the idea of a "pure blooded" American is absurd,, no matter how many generations you have someone in your family came from somewhere else.
Borders are political, what difference does it make where you were born if you are willing to dedicate yourself to the service of the country where you live? |
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no where in the constitution does it say separation of church and state
it is will not establish nor endorse nor restrict big difference if the judge wants the 10 commandments in his court then him being told no is restricting his religion |
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As long as you were born here your a native.Indians were immigrants also..they walked here over the Bering strait.
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no where in the constitution does it say separation of church and state it is will not establish nor endorse nor restrict big difference if the judge wants the 10 commandments in his court then him being told no is restricting his religion the whole right to bear arms thing is taken out of context also. |
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no where in the constitution does it say separation of church and state it is will not establish nor endorse nor restrict big difference if the judge wants the 10 commandments in his court then him being told no is restricting his religion The key word is endorse. He is endorsing the commandments and not common civil law. |
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Why in the heck would you post here if you aren't interested in politics? Considering this whole forum is pretty much strictly that makes the reason why that person posted in the first place pointless. Mono has a point. Anyways, no, I do not think a foreign-born naturalized US citizen should be allowed to run for President. It has good political thriller idea behind it though should anyone want to write a good novel, if someone hasn't already! The naturalized US citizen goes to the best schools, becomes a US citizens, rises in the ranks in Washington and then runs for President. Becomes President and then it turns out he is really a loyalist to some enemy country of the US that wants to bring it down, best way through a popular President from the inside. Dum dum dummmmmmm..... :D What is so different then what baby shrub has done with his dictatorship of our country. He used his influence to get into office possibly illegally and then proceeded to exert his agenda on this country including, ignoring Katrina as a valid tradegy in our country to initiating an illegal war with Iraq to satisfy his personal agenda in the name of the greatest tragedy to hit America, 9/11. And alot of others stuff inbetween like granting himself more power. I am not sure how I feel about letting a naturalized citizen become president. I would think that it should stay as is. We are all non-American citizens by background, except native Americans so we are voting in the descendent of an immigrant anyway. Maybe they had a hatred of America in their family and then become president just to destroy us, oops, I think I just described baby shrub....lol 
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I agree dragon with everything except katrina
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The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814 If I had the desire I would drown you in quotes by the Founding Fathers overwhelmed with Christian references, however I do not, and if I did with a few I would be limiting it so incredibly significantly. I have a B.A. in History, focused nearly solely around Revolution history and the Founding Fathers, I have read more books on them and more letters, most on microfilm, than I can begin to remember. The majority were very devoutly Christian. The only reason for the Separation of Church and State, just like non-US born citizens can become President, are directly because of what they experienced in England. And, solely that. I don't believe that to be completely true. IE: "I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." - Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.) "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.) Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789) "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787) "When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780;) I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.) "Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.) "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.) "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).) "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.) "As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith." - Thomas Paine (Common Sense, 1776.) "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry "That religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience." - Patrick Henry (Virginia Bill of Rights, June 12, 1776.) |
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Yeah dragon I know. I dont watch fox news like some of these brainwashed people. The enlightnment was about the truth of man and a secular world. The founding fathers where all influenced by these great minds. That is what influenced them not the bible of any other holy text for that manner.
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Edited by
Starsailor2851
on
Sun 01/27/08 03:18 PM
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Dragon, the majority of the quotes don't even go against what I said...lol.
I never said that the Founding Fathers wanted to impose a Christian religion over the people. I was simply saying that the Founding Fathers were far more religious than the politically correct world we have become wants to admit. There are sites, led directly by atheists and other non-Christians, that solely took any quote that looks delicious and posted it to show that they were not Christians. However, they do not post the letters and writings where there are heavily Christian influenced writings. Like I said, many of the own quotes you cited side much more with me than some deist idea. Go read the letters published on microfilm and in books dedicated to Founding Fathers and their take on religion. If they were such diests, in your formed opinions only from a very few quotes fed to you by websites dedicated to proving that point, then why is it that most governmental buildings, our currency, and official writings use the exact title of the Christian God? Also, many of the quotes you used are just that, quotes, and often are only snipets from the original source. Your Thomas Jefferson quote is missing a part to it, which takes much off the true effect the people who posted it are trying to make. "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787) "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." That full length quote adds a very different aspect. And, how about this quote: "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Thomas Jefferson "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time." - Thomas Jefferson Jefferson is one of the men who can be linked to leaning more deist than Christian, however he at times weighs on one or the other. The times of the Enlightenment weighed in on his quotes and writings as well. The reason for the Seperation of Church and State WAS SIMPLY so no sect of Christianity was supported over the other and there was no state government religion. It was directly related to the Church of England and the persecution all experienced because of it and because of the experience from the wars of the Reformation for many Founding Father's were Germans, who got absolutely slaughtered during the wars between Catholic and Protestant State churches. |
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Most of the founding fathers where diests thats why of the seperation of church and state. That's not true. That is the modern misconception, which has been spun as best able by those who are anti-Christian or dislike the fact that the Founding Father's were so devout in Christianity. If you look at all their personal writings and government writings you will find it full of references to Christianity and Christian God. Many of the Founding Fathers memorized much of the Bible and many, such as the great Patrick Henry, my favorite by the way, read The Bible in its Latin language origin. Many were diests, but very many more were Christians. They simply did not want a State Religion, like The Church of England. That is the only reasons for the Separation of Church and State inclusion in the Constitution. In everything the government was centered around, and found in all government buildings of the time and throughout the 19th, and even early 20th Century you will find Christianity all over the place. Most of the more personalized writings of the Founding Fathers are extremely religious in tone. I don't know if this will turn out correctly but I am going to post it. For short character sketches of each of the Framers, see the Framers Page. This page contains demographical data about each of the framers, including some not sketched on the aforementioned page. A similar data table is available for the Signers of the Declaration of Independence and for the Articles of Confederation. Note: the "?" column is an answer to the question, did this person sign the Constitution? Name State Place of Birth Birth Date Death Date Occupation Religion ? Baldwin, Abraham Georgia Guilford, CT 11/23/1754 3/4/1807 Minister/Lawyer CO Y Bassett, Richard Delaware Cecil County, MD 4/2/1745 8/15/1815 Lawyer ME Y Bedford, Gunning, Jr. Delaware Philadelphia, PA 1747 3/30/1812 Lawyer PB Y Blair, John Virginia Williamsburg, VA 1732 8/31/1800 Lawyer EP Y Blount, William North Carolina Windsor, NC 4/6/1749 3/21/1800 Politician PB Y Brearly, David New Jersey Spring Grove, NJ 6/11/1745 8/16/1790 Lawyer EP Y Broom, Jacob Delaware Wilmington, DE 1752 1810 Merchant LU Y Butler, Pierce South Carolina County Carlow, Ireland 7/11/1744 2/15/1822 Soldier/Politician EP Y Carroll, Daniel Maryland Upper Marlboro, MD 7/22/1730 7/5/1796 Farmer RC Y Clymer, George Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 3/16/1740 1/23/1813 Merchant QU/EP Y Davie, William R. North Carolina Egremont, England 6/20/1756 11/29/1820 Lawyer PB N Dayton, Jonathan New Jersey Elizabethtown, NJ 10/16/1760 10/9/1824 Lawyer EP Y ****inson, John Delaware Trappe, MD 11/19/1732 2/14/1808 Lawyer QU/EP Y Ellsworth, Oliver Connecticut Windsor, CT 4/29/1745 11/26/1807 Lawyer CO N Few, William Georgia Baltimore, MD 6/8/1748 7/16/1828 Lawyer ME Y Fitzsimons, Thomas Pennsylvania Ireland 1741 8/26/1811 Merchant RC Y Franklin, Benjamin Pennsylvania Boston, MA 1/17/1706 4/17/1790 Inventor DE Y Gerry, Elbridge Massachusetts Marblehead, MA 7/17/1744 11/23/1814 Merchant EP N Gilman, Nicholas New Hampshire Exeter, NH 8/3/1755 5/2/1814 Merchant CO Y Gorham, Nathaniel Massachusetts Charlestown, MA 5/27/1738 6/11/1796 Merchant CO Y Hamilton, Alexander New York Nevis, British West Indies 1/11/1757 7/12/1804 Lawyer EP Y Houston, William C. New Jersey Sumter, SC 1746 8/12/1788 Teacher PB N Houstoun, William Georgia Savannah, GA 1755 3/17/1813 Lawyer EP N Ingersoll, Jared Pennsylvania New Haven, CT 10/27/1749 10/31/1822 Lawyer PB Y Jenifer, Daniel of St. Thomas Maryland Port Tobacco, MD 1723 11/16/1790 Lawyer EP Y Johnson, William S. Connecticut Stratford, CT 10/7/1727 11/14/1819 Lawyer EP Y King, Rufus Massachusetts Scarborough, ME 3/24/1755 4/29/1827 Lawyer EP Y Langdon, John New Hampshire Portsmouth, NH 6/26/1741 9/18/1819 Merchant CO Y Lansing, John, Jr. New York Albany, NY 1/30/1754 1829 Lawyer DR N Livingston, William New Jersey Albany, NY 11/30/1723 7/25/1790 Lawyer PB Y Madison, James Virginia Port Conway, VA 3/16/1751 6/28/1836 Politician EP Y Martin, Alexander North Carolina Hunterdon County, NJ 1740 11/2/1807 Politician PB/EP N Martin, Luther Maryland Brunswick, NJ 2/9/1744 7/10/1826 Lawyer EP N Mason, George Virginia Fairfax County, VA 12/11/1725 10/7/1792 Politician EP N McClurg, James Virginia Hampton, VA 1746 7/9/1823 Doctor PB? N McHenry, James Maryland Ballymena, Ireland 11/16/1753 5/3/1816 Doctor PB Y Mercer, John F. Maryland Stafford County, VA 5/17/1759 8/30/1821 Lawyer EP N Mifflin, Thomas Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 1/10/1744 1/20/1800 Merchant QU/LU Y Morris, Gouverneur Pennsylvania Bronx, NY 1/31/1752 11/6/1816 Lawyer EP Y Morris, Robert Pennsylvania Liverpool, England 1/31/1734 5/8/1806 Merchant EP Y Paterson, William New Jersey County Antrim, Ireland 12/24/1745 9/9/1806 Lawyer PB Y Pierce, William L. Georgia Georgia 1740 12/10/1789 Merchant EP N Pinckney, Charles Cotesworth South Carolina Charleston, SC 2/25/1746 8/16/1825 Lawyer EP Y Pinckney, Charles South Carolina Charleston, SC 10/26/1757 10/29/1824 Lawyer EP Y Randolph, Edmund J. Virginia Williamsburg, VA 8/10/1753 1813 Lawyer EP N Read, George Delaware Cecil County, MD 9/18/1733 9/21/1798 Lawyer EP Y Rutledge, John South Carolina Charleston, SC 9/1739 6/18/1800 Lawyer EP Y Sherman, Roger Connecticut Newton, MA 4/19/1721 7/23/1793 Lawyer/Merchant CO Y Spaight, Richard D. North Carolina New Bern, NC 3/25/1758 9/6/1802 Politician EP Y Strong, Caleb Massachusetts Northampton, MA 1/9/1745 11/7/1819 Lawyer CO N Washington, George Virginia Wakefield Plantation, VA 2/22/1732 12/14/1799 Soldier EP Y Williamson, Hugh North Carolina Nottingham, PA 12/5/1735 5/22/1819 Educator PB/DE Y Wilson, James Pennsylvania St. Andrews, Scotland 9/14/1741 8/21/1797 Lawyer EP/DE Y Wythe, George Virginia Elizabeth City County, VA 1726 6/8/1806 Lawyer EP N Yates, Robert New York Schenectady, NY 1/27/1738 9/9/1801 Lawyer DR N Religion key: CO = Congregationalist DE = Deist DR = Dutch Reformed EP = Episcopal LU = Lutheran ME = Methodist PB = Presbyterian QU = Quaker RC = Roman Catholic It is hard to read but you are correct in the assertion that guite a few claimed a certain religion. The article that I got this from did however stand that claiming one religion did not make them devout. As you have insinuated. And regardless to that fact they knew what happens if a religion becomes too powerful in the government and knew that there could be no religion in government in order to be fair to all religions. the link is http://www.usconstitution.net/constframedata.html |
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Been more than awhile since Ive been on here posting so let me start back with this baby step; First the question originally was should the constitution be changed so that a foriegn born american may be allowed to run for president- my opinion is no. Do I have a well thought out reason to defend that opinion, no I dont. It just seems to me that every day we lose more of ourselves to the ideals and beliefs of what other people in other nations have. Im tired of people acting as though we should be less than the U.S. dont know what that has to do with the answer it just seems to me that we keep chipping away at what makes us US and it is hard to see it happen, and even harder to keep going on allowing it to happen all for the sake of being PC. religion, church and state, separation- does any of that even matter? and by the way some of you should probably go back and reread the constitution---where in it anywhere does it say that there should be a separation of church and state? I recall freedom of religion but not the other. cheers. lightly tiptoes back to the corner. |
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And you are right, I do believe that the religious in this country are given far too much power in our government. They need to remove any sign of religion from our government. Religion needs to stay at home where it belongs not in my government.
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