One day I was looking at the periodic table -and realized it looked like a set of toy blocks.
These extremely complex "element" blocks came into existence by being arranged from that which already existed
(but we rarely try to look back beyond/before the initiation of the physical universe or consider that the universe might not be "everything" /the characteristics of the most basic "stuff" -the most basic blocks -which eventually became arranged as our universe -but perhaps something else before that)
Then these complex blocks self-assembled first into innumerable planets (relatively isolated/closed environments) -upon which they continued to self-assemble into a potentially-infinite variety of life forms -which tended toward increased mastery of environment (mastery of the blocks from which they and all else self-assembled) -and which increased in enjoyment or displeasure of environment, depending upon how the environment was in order or in disorder.
From these blocks the masters of environment can produce an extreme number of intended characteristics/properties and arrange them into countless configurations -by combining the blocks in various ways.
These life forms also tend toward the ability and desire to leave their isolated environments and explore the others.... including the countless differing worlds... upon which the potentially-infinite variety of life forms may already reside.......
so they can do really cool stuff wherever they go and also just be filled with awe...
but they have to learn to not mess up or blow up everything first.... so it's a good thing they begin in isolated environments.

Yah -that all took some forethought.

Some believe that "thought" requires the physical universe to first exist, but that the physical universe did not require thought to first exist.
That is what is apparent if only the physical universe which self-assembled from ITS initiation is considered back to its specific initiation -and not how that specific initiation came to pass.

It is true that everything which exists must have initially self-assembled (Even God could not be responsible for his own initial existence or awareness) -but what would it assemble into first -next, etc.?
Would thought and self-awareness have self-assembled first? Would such an extremely complex environment as our universe self-assembled first?

Thought and self-awareness are the mechanisms by which any blocks may go beyond self-assembly -so must logically self-assemble "first" -but would also become increasingly able step-by-step as self and environment became more distinct and complex.
So... is the entire physical universe specifically the initial "self-assembly" from greatest possible simplicity -and we are the first mechanisms to move it beyond self-assembly???....
or was such a mechanism required to move greatest possible simplicity to become specifically the universe?

Did thought require the periodic table -or did the periodic table require thought?
Did the extremely complex and specific blocks require such a mechanism to arrange them from the most simple blocks?

As there is no actual difference between "self" (self-aware and environment-aware processor/manipulator) and environment -only logical separation and arrangement..... would "self" and environment initially develop interdependently in tandem -or would one be initially extremely augmented?

Must the overall initial simple environment have/have also become a simple yet increasingly complex self -thereby becoming able to continue more complex arrangement -as a self is a necessary arranger past initial self-assembly... as increasingly able?

One difference between such a self and our own selves is that such a self would have increasing input into its own arrangement -and that of its environment (initially both simple and not separate).
We have zero input into our selves until we awaken into already-extremely-complex and -capable bodies -and assume there never was any sort of "input" to cause that specific output.

Of your entire post, this is most relevant to me -




The mere fact that we KNOW we are beyond dependence on nature to further advance and grow as a species, to me, means we now have a duty to do so ourselves, nature has done all it can do for us up to now.

It's a matter of time before the next extinction event, in fact I believe we are just beginning the next event (global warming), so onus falls on us to stop wasting time & resources on lesser tasks, like wars and other hate or greed based endeavors and start working together to continue our existence as a species.

Our future depends not on us competing against each other, but on us competing WITH each other, using our ability to assembly those "building blocks" and defy our fatal destiny.

Increasing mastery of environment.
We are certainly responsible -but I believe once we learn that lesson we will not simply have to go it alone as humans, but rather will be given a boost by the one who arranged the complex blocks from the simple blocks in the first place.... by being granted more powerful bodies and minds -and access to all knowledge of all things (as is wise).

Successive generations of newbies can't be expected to make much permanent change -but should definitely always try.

When we are granted permanence, we may make permanent changes -but our temporary existence is enough to prepare us (thankfully only up to about 120 years of personal experience each).

What we KNOW and what we THINK we know are two different things.

The human species is extremely dependent on nature.
Natural processes not only allows us to continue to survive but those processes are very specific. Anytime we try to 'step outside' the zone of natural stability, we perish.

Not only is space a hostile natural environment, so is the depth of the oceans and many areas where natural volcanic events occur.
There's still much more natural conditions which will kill us than our ability to nullify those threats.

Yes, we can explore the oceans and venture into space within a pressurized man-made environment but if we exit that bubble of safety and expose our bodies to the natural environment, we die.

If we were "beyond dependence on nature" our bodies would not require artificial 'habitats' to continue. We would simply be indestructible.


This implies construction from purpose. Some of the man-made elements on the periodic table were arranged, the natural elements combined from cause and effect. Random reactions from random movements.



If you look at atomic models you can see how cause and effect and random capture creates more and more complex atoms.
Hydrogen (the most abundant atom in the Universe) has one proton and one electron.
Water is a combination of hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom.



An oxygen atom is an accumulation of particles/elements which came together from random cause and effect interaction.

Not every atom is a hydrogen atom, not every element is a water molecule.
However, every atom and molecule has the atomic parts of hydrogen if it were stripped down to one electron and one proton.

Since hydrogen is still occurring in this universe, the cause and effect is not past tense, its current and on-going.


Thought is a result of cause and effect. Self-awareness is a result of the cause and effect of thought.

Life itself is a result of random cause and effect. Humans can't know what defines all life in the Universe. We can only know what defines life in our lil piece of the Universe but even that is subjective. We will never know the entire process of the Universe.

We assume life means thought yet we see living things which we can't be sure think.
We assume things which are not alive do not think, yet we may not have found out yet.

We can measure a persons brain activity and associate that activity with thought. Yet there are people who are alive which have no measurable brain activity.


At conception, the sperm and egg are already alive. A live egg cannot be fertilized by dead sperm and a dead egg can't be fertilized by live sperm.
Gestation is assembly but it is assembly which starts out alive.
Babies have been born alive but unable to develop thought patterns.
Many babies have thought before they are born, they form associations while in the womb. As the zygote's senses form they acquire thought and make associations.
Since it doesn't happen every time exactly the same way for every baby, it is random cause and effect.

As a child matures, it is random cause and effect which causes thought to develop in its unique way specific to the child.
I explored this in the topic titled The Philosophy of Innocence where environment and influence causes a child to develop specific characteristics.
No one condition causes the exact same result because cause and effect in this Universe is random (chaotic).
Thought and self-awareness is random and unique to the individual.

Human beings are societal. We share out thoughts and act together in unison to create our 'world'. Social ideals are a choice. However, our society is neither utopian nor dystopian but a random mix with cause and effect creating a divergence at many levels of civilization.
There is even divergence in family units. There is divergence in twins and triplets. This is driven by random interaction of cause and effect.

From this perspective, the entire Universe, including us (we are part of the Universe) is resulting from random cause and effect.

This implies construction from purpose.

Not necessarily -but it would logically have been the singularity itself which was constructed from purpose -packaged, then executed.... like a seed that does nothing until planted.

The fact that the singularity was specifically a universe seed indicates more simple states prior to its existence -and a process(or) which brought simplicity to the point of the singularity.

The greatest creative process would have taken place between greatest possible simplicity and the singularity.

It is more logical that a "self" developed and was responsible for specifying the universe seed -than it simply developing.

Not only is the universe what one should expect a "self" to create -as it answers psychological needs (what would a "God" logically do?) -but a "self" is the required mechanism to make more states of nature possible. Therefore it is logical that a self developed first.

All life or more simple "selves" would have basic similarities -input/perception -processing/reaction -output/action -but in different configurations and levels of complexity -and would be logically separate from environment due to those attributes.

Self-awareness would be by way of perception and thought feedback loops.
When looking in a mirror, an aware life form has a feedback loop from itself to the mirror -but a self-aware life form has a feedback loop (mirror) in its mind that allows a sort of third-person perspective on itself and the mirror -so it would be able to perceive it was itself in the mirror rather than just something. In its mind it would be looking at itself looking at the mirror.

A complex self is able to perceive present possible states of nature and arrange them in ways nature alone would not -and it would do so in ways which would suit its developing needs and then desires.

That is the case with mankind and present nature -and would always have been the case at any level.

Interesting note.... to be completely self-aware, we would have to have feedback loops which informed us of the state of every part of our self. For example, we are self-aware, but not to the point of knowing the present state of all of our components and systems. We might feel pain -but we don't get a readout from ourselves of exactly what is amiss that we might consider. We get a general idea of where the pain is. Our unconscious self does detect more specific states and adjusts the system -while "we" are unaware.

This implies construction from purpose.

Lets say the "Big Bang" is merely the result of an initial change in the pristine state of reality. The 'explosion' of matter is a reaction to that change of state.

In nature we know spontaneous combustion exists.
You can have a pile of rags soaked with gasoline and they will not ignite on their own but if just the right conditions randomly occur, they will ignite.
By themselves, none of the random conditions which lead to the rags igniting alone, are purpose driven.

If spontaneous reactions can exist within the Universe, it cannot be motivated by 'self' as a focused result.

Within the limited scope of man's understanding of the nature of the Universe we see distinction between what is alive and what is not alive. It is our understanding life is purpose driven because it acts to survive and reproduce while inanimate matter does not.
The Universe consists of life and inanimate matter.

When considering the initiation of existence, the pristine Universe was a static state, most likely inanimate because 'animate' indicates movement.
We can't know what condition caused the change of state, we didn't exist at that time. It could have been a force wave from a neighboring Universe's demise? Something initiated movement in this static state.
When that happened a series of random interactions occurred causing an 'explosion' of interactions which created new matter in a chaotic way.

Fast-forward in time an undetermined amount and these chaotic interactions caused specific elements to come together in such a way as life spontaneously initiated. By this time, those elements were in enough abundance within the Universe to allow multiple instances of life to occur. As time progressed, life adapted and mutated to form complex organisms. As these organisms continued to mutate and reproduce within their specific realm, sensory organs spontaneously generated and mutated. Brains became complex as the environment and the organism's continued existence required. Eventually, reason and purpose (an organism's continuity adaptation) emerged. As a survival mechanism.

Here, on Earth, human beings have adapted to this environment to the point our brains no longer function solely as a survival mechanism. Our brains and reasoning ability has advanced to the point we have the luxury of imaginative thought.
However, on this very same Earth we see other life forms which maintain their survival and reproduction with limited brains.
What we do not see is inanimate matter which think.
Right here, on this planet, inanimate matter makes up far more of existence than life. It is, then understandable based on human conclusion and reason, that most of the Universe is comprised of inanimate matter at or near the same ratio we see here.
Inanimate matter does not act to preserve its existence. It doesn't purposely do...anything. It is subject to the chaotic cause and effect which created it in the first place. It spontaneously combusts, it grows by accumulation and shrinks to oblivion. Randomly, without purpose.

Oh, we humans can assign our idea of a purpose to these random effects. We can forecast results from specific criteria. What we can't do is cause a reaction by shear will alone. An asteroid or comet cannot prevent its destruction of plunging into the Sun by will alone.
We can change the conditions on purpose but that succeeds or fails according to the nature of the chaotic random interactions present at that time.
No matter how hard we try, we can't strike a wet match to flame unless something has changed.

Its not the specific occurrences of nature which makes it random, it is the nature of all the occurances within the Universe from star formation to zygote development.
"Self" is the sole product of an advanced mind. An advanced mind which results from billions of years of random interaction and mutation as well as directed discipline.

Hi maximus

Have a listen to this scientific presentation about the mathmateical pattern of atoms .. and consciousness of matter .

http://youtu.be/GzCvlFRISIM

Will do!

On our level...

We ARE inanimate matter thinking -we are composed of those same inanimate things -and our ability to think is due to how they are arranged.
From the big bang onward, the various atoms which formed are such that they will self-assemble into thinking beings under the right circumstances.
Until they do, nature is limited because it cannot perceive itself. Once they do, nature is not limited -and many more states become possible.

The same would be true of pre-universe material -of which our universe is an arrangement.

Some say not. Some say atoms, etc needed to form before life and thought were possible, but all the necessary requirements of thought would be present before the universe -whereas one of the requirements of our level of complexity of matter would be a mechanism to arrange pre-universe matter into specifically the universe. That mechanism would quite naturally and logically be thought.

Self-assembly can only go so far -until it literally self-assembles into a self.

If you consider the type and degree of difference between human creations as referenced from the periodic table and various natural forces......

and then consider the type and degree of difference between the most simple states possible and our universe....

you will see that our universe necessarily required far more thought than anything we have made -and the differences made are indicative of a self/self-awareness -just as ours are indicative of our existence -reveal our nature -and require us.

I think I get where you are coming from...let me see if I have this right.

Starting with the smallest possible particle of matter, it possesses a potential for thought. As matter coalesces into larger more complex chains, that potential for thought increases.

The coalescing of the particles is what you consider self-assembly because particles do assemble in the Universe. This makes it an inherent condition of the nature of the particle.

As particles come together in more and more complex ways creating molecule chains and structures with specific properties this 'self-assembly' creates life and thought. It creates a purpose of assembly for ever more self-assembly to preserve and advance its own existence.

The fact that intelligent life exists in this Universe is proof self-assembly exists.

Did I get this right or am I still missing something?

Using this reasoning, I still must disagree with your assumption the Universe is self-assembling matter.

The atomic bomb teaches us matter is composed of energy.
I think of it as matter being condensed energy, tightly packed which becomes matter.
Understanding energy is everywhere, including in the matter which make us up, energy is the force which dictates the Universe. Matter is merely a state change of energy much like steam is a state change of ice.
This being so, Matter has a value of multiple but the energy of the Universe has a value of One. All the energy of the universe is the same energy throughout. Its merely in different states.

If there is a self-assembling 'force' at work in the Universe it is energy, not matter. The energy which makes up life within the organic compounds is but a state change from the base energy of the Universe.

The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - only converted from one form of energy to another. A change of state.

Its my understanding the Universe came to be and continues to be a state change of energy. Whether the state change is directed or not is a moot point. However, if self-assembly of energy were a directed, inevitable outcome, the Universe would be all matter and no free energy could exist.
Therefore, if free energy does exist, it is not self-assembling.
Plus, The atomic bomb would not work because self-assembling energy would not disassemble in a release of energy.

Pretty much -and I agree about energy/matter -as the properties of materials are by way of energy, charges, etc...

but my focus is on pre-universe/pre-singularity "stuff" -before it became arranged as atoms, etc.
While "the universe" is called so to convey the idea of be all-inclusive, I don't think it is.

I see it necessary that thought/planning was required for the periodic table -the elements having their specific properties -ability to combine and create even more different properties -in preparation for use by post-singularity life forms. So... life/thought developed naturally, but our level of thought/life was artificial.

We also interface on our level (except when we employ tools -whereas a being interfacing on a more basic pre-atomic level would actually have greater power -to change things at the root -so to speak.

The Universe is considered all-inclusive because it is the 'domain' of the matter/energy to which we belong.

Prior to the Universe is moot because no matter what we do, being locked in this matter/energy domain, we can not know its original state.

The concept of a Universe initializing from a singularity supports only the trheory of a 'big bang' Universe. The so-called big bang is an event which happens after the Universe initialized. It is an expansion of matter over time which is still happening.

There's no proof or measurement of the pristine state of the Universe before expansion. This is probably because it hasn't existed for a very long time and we can't observe and measure it.

Any speculation on the pristine state of the Universe is as valid as any other.
We can't know what can't be known.
Even the big bang is but a measurement of the history of light and a calculation of distance. All which exist after the initial change of state which caused energy to create matter.

It is speculated one possible demise of the Universe is when all the matter/energy of the Universe changes to frozen.
Its called the big freeze.
In the big freeze all the matter/energy stops moving (freezes) locking the energy into the matter.

This leads to speculation that states the Universe is cyclic and matter/energy freezes and releases over and over again.
In a cyclic Universe, this current domain may be one of a long procession of cycles.
During its freeze state, time cannot exist so there can't be a time measurement made. This is because time is movement. At a true absolute zero state, even particle spin stops and force carriers cease.

Having no ability to observe or measure a frozen Universe, any physics or phenomenon which might occur under those conditions will be unknown.
Since we can't achieve true absolute zero, we can't measure the properties during that state. This is because measuring/observering changes the condition of the state.
Schrödinger saw this as the problems of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. The scenario is often featured in theoretical discussions of the interpretations of quantum mechanics, particularly in situations involving the measurement problem.

If a cyclic Universe is accurate speculation it also begs to question what (unknown forces) or ...who (God?), initiated the change of state. However, whatever initiated the change of state for whatever reason only initiated the change not what happens after the change.
The change of state causes movement in a frozen Universe releasing the stored energy in the pristine matter.
This would be a chotic explosion of energy/light as the pristine matter explodes like an atomic bomb. The force wave and radiation of that released energy would then expand thru the initial Universe state creating new matter as it forces particles together in new ways.
Being cyclic, the new matter/energy arrangement would create new life as well.

In speculative fiction one of the favorite story subjects is the evolution of life to a state of pure energy beings.
Since beings are made of matter/energy it is a likely step in the life process but we already are beings of pure energy. Only thing is, the energy which is us is locked into the matter which makes up our individual bodies.

Since energy changes state, it is more likely our next step would be beings of some type of plasma/energy. Plasma is the 4th state of matter (beyond the conventional solids, liquids and gases).
Plasma is an ionized gas consisting of approximately equal numbers of positively and negatively charged particles.
Closer on the matter scale to pure energy but still locked into its own state.
So, those energy beings are not pure energy, they are plasma.

Since the Universe is energy with a value of 1, if a being converted to pure energy it would no longer be a being. It would dilute into the free energy of the Universe, no longer locked into a matter state. This would result in an atomic bomb type release of the energy.

In our limited understanding and observation of the Universe we have discovered no known plasma/energy beings.
There are three possibilities for this.
1. We haven't found one yet.
2. It can't happen in this Universe.
3. The Universe is still too young for this to occur yet.

What we do detect is stars which explode releasing energy.
This has to do with mass, temperature and gravity (all conditions of states of matter).
We also detect quantum energy release in the Large Hadron Collider (CERN) when we force particles together at near the speed of light. One of the particle/energy release is the Higgs Boson and the Higgs field.

The Higgs field is a force carrier generated by the Higgs boson. It is speculated the Higgs field acts like a mass speed limiter in the Universe.
Other particles generate other force carriers which support our current understaning of the fundamental laws of the Universe.

Since discovery of the Higgs Boson and its force carrier is rather new, there's no telling what 'other' exotic particles and force carriers exist which we haven't discovered.
To speculate, there may be a fundamenal particle/force carrier which governs the entire Universe and all its conditions.
This is commonly known as "The God Particle".

Before the Higgs boson/force carrier was confirmed and tested, it was speculated that was the God Particle. However, The Higgs boson/force carrier doesn't unify the fundamental lawqs of the Universe.
There's still something missing.

Perhaps your answer will lie in Grand Unification Theory.
A Grand Unified Theory is a model in particle physics in which, at high energies, the three gauge interactions of the Standard Model comprising the electromagnetic, weak, and strong forces are merged into a single force.
This known theory is limited by our understanding.
The electromagnetic, weak, and strong forces are not the only forces existing in ther Universe. A fourth force, The Higgs Field Force governs speed and consequently, time.
There may also be other unknown forces in the Universe.

Everything we know and everything we can know is limited to our domain of mass/energy of the Universe because it is the only domain we can know.
Before this Universe, we can't know. Past this Universe, we can't know.
Outside this Universe, we can't know.

Everything we are, from the matter/energy to our hopes, desires and dreams are products of this Universe. We are this Universe, a specific state of it.
Our existence and manipulation is locked to this domain. When we imagine it is the Universe imagining. In this sense, the Universe is a condition of direction and self-assembly because we possess direction and self-assembly.
The Universe does think because we think.
We are not separate from the Universe, we are part of it.

I think maybe we can know -at east to a certain degree.

If nothing is actually created or destroyed, then the universe is (some or only a part of) the same thing which existed before it, outside it -whatever.
We weren't "there" in sequence of events, but it is "here" as the result of those events. The same pre-universe "stuff" is all around us -even is us.

It simply hasn't been a focus or consideration for most.
Reverse-engineering an entire universe is an astounding feat -we just have to keep at it.

As for a collapse or freeze -and our position/ability to manipulate....
The more we are able to understand and manipulate smaller and smaller components of matter (energy), etc., the greater effect we may have. The most basic components would literally be pre-universe stuff -and the universe just its present arrangement.

I mean... we are literally worried about things like accidentally creating a black hole on Earth... discussing things like "the anti-God" in movies (something that essentially unzips the present state of things) -and for good reason.

"Self" -creativity -whatever -is a force which is able to consciously oppose and manipulate otherwise-natural forces and tendencies.
Presently,we are able to alter the natural course of events on Earth -even potentially avoid its destruction by meteors, etc., because our abilities have increased. It is not impossible that our abilities continue to increase to include more of the universe and cosmic events.
We may theoretically increase even to the point of holding back the natural tendency of the universe to collapse or freeze or whatever (better throw another log on the universe fire).

One of my favorite bible quotes has to do with just that -and is made possible by being given improved bodies/interfaces.
Things would naturally happen to the universe... unless....
(Rom 8:21)"the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God"
(Phil 3:21)Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

(from before... there are spontaneous reactions -and they must precede and produce the non-spontaneous/deliberate. Once the deliberate is done, the spontaneous continues on a new path until something deliberate is done again)