I think that we should pull out all of out troops right now from Iraq. Now people are going to say that it is cruel and becasue we started it we should finish it. Well the problem with that is that we can not finish it. No matter how long we are there we will never set up a peaceful government.

The example I use is The Revolutionary War. In the revolutionary war we needed the help of france. France gave us money and guns and lots of other things we needed. The reason we won and are the nation we are today is because France never went futher then that. Now say if they helped us overthrow the English, and then had tried to start a government that was the same as theirs, a monarchy. We would have rebelled against them to because thats not what we wanted. It is the same situation in Iraq the people need to fight and die for their own ideals. Now we can back any faction we want, but we can only help fight we cannot set up our own governtment.

eh might as well... but it wont happen in fact its only gona get worse. but i was there during the war and its 50% of the population that actully wanted us there so really its probly a problem they should finish on there own. i mean is there a real porpose of us being there. i could understand if there was still a threat but i dont belive its still a threat. the only reason i belive were still there is for the oil... but only my opinion.

We probably should have never started the war. And frankly i could give a crap about iraqis. However, to pull out now would be a foolish thing. It's like saying that because we made a mistake to go over we should make another just because. I am talking from a tactical perspective so bare with me. When we went over we may have taken out a ruthless leader but in doing so we are giving the terrorists themselves more freedom. Sadam did may have hated America but for the most part terrorism was not tolerated. If you were suspected of it he would kill you on the spot. People in our country are very soft and emotional. Our government has to fight with their hands tied behind their backs. I can tell you from experience... war is hell. I have been on WELL over 100 combat operations in Sadre City, Baghdad, and Mosuel. I have met many convicted "insurgants" face to face. They have this mentallity going where they view kindness as weakness. Anyhow, if we pull out the country will fail. When it fails the Al-queda and other terrorist groups that are now funding the insergants will move in. Now they have a country and a lot more funding from taxing their citizens. We would make them more powerful at the same time it makes us look weak. This is a very dangerous combination when you are dealing with a bunch of religous extremists that want to do nothing more than hate. And from a more personal perspective, think of the soldiers. We have lost some 3700 ish troops. I can't stand letting them die for nothing. If we pull out, we fail. Their deaths would be in vain. Im sorry to ramble but i get pretty heated over this topic. It all boils down to this. We are doing good right now. We had a few lowpoints but, regardless what the media will have you believe, the surge worked, and is working. We need to ride this out a little longer so we can accomplish our mission. Not for them, but for us. If we fail, we will pay for it within just a few years.

I don't agree with what you are saying, because first off pulling out of Iraq is not dishonering any of our troops that have given thier lives. There will never be a stable country while we are there. You cannot give people freedom they have to work for it themselves. Its called tough love. If a government is created that supports terrorism then we will not be alone in the fight, but we are doing more harm then good.

And as far as the religios extremeists the ones we have to worry about are not in Iraq. The ones we have to worry about are in our own country. Abraham Lincoln said “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and loose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed them ourselves.”
We have terrorist cells in america and if you don't believe me check out the movie Jesus Camp.

The problem is there have been no real political sollutions, only military ones. To pull out overnight would risk a genocide of the Iraqi people. I like Bidens plan. If you remember back to the revolution, remember that following it, I believe it was the state of massachusetts, began committing atroseties on it's people which was responded to with another rebellion from within. It took drafting a bill of rights and introducing a federal regulation to solve the problem. Incredibaly simmilar to Bidens plan for Iraq, split it up into three territories regulated by a federal system and a bill of rights, then we can leave responsibly;^]

I guess we could all be a bit smarter from watching more TV huh....

"Tough love" and an Abraham Lincoln quote... Let's run that by the U.N. and see if we can't get some help to put that plan into action. Dude, tough love is something you do with your children or maybe a pet, but not with a country. If we just leave with our hands up so they can figure it out for themselves then it's going to get much worse. These people aren't used to ruling themselves and despite what you've heard the majority of Iraqis that I talked to over there actually want us to help. We NEED to follow through with this. And about your terrorist cells in America... yeah, we have them and they're being hunted down as we speak. But have you ever thought about how many more there would be if we just tucked tail and ran? You do realize that the entire concept behind terrorism is mental, right? Can you imagine how many 'uncertains' would pick up and join the fight with a morale boost like that? And when they ended up over here killing our families it'd only be a matter of time before some hippies find a way to protect terrorist groups because killing them is unconstitutional. After all, they're people too.

look Good Sir I have seen Iraq and will be back in Iraq before Christmas. I see the people want a free government but the Religios nuts want to controll the People. I work closely with a group of Iraqis and they are a gret bunch of people but the other guys that want to kill eachother because of religious differences dont want that. Please understand that the People of Iraq WANT to be free but the Religous nuts want to control everything. It would be like the Crusades for lack of better terms, the Christains want the Holy land, but the people in the Holy land want to be free of the Christains...no offence meant. Just dont listen to CNN, Please Please dont listen to CNN or any news because they only cover the tragedy. Its all about the money and the Views to them. Ask someone whos been there they'll tell ya and even then the opinion is different.

Thank you for your time,
PFC William Charles Monteith,II
3RD Brigade 3 Infantry Division 1-15
FOB Hammer Iraq

I wasn't talking about terrorist cells in america. I was talking about christians. I am talking about the people who want to start a religious war. Many people out there believe that if you are not christian you should die. These are the religious extremists that I am talking about. I know that there is not a majority of these people around, but America is founded on religious freedom. Again watch clips from Jesus Camp on YouTube to see what I am talking about. And about the terrorists getting emboldened, America has the strongest army in the world and we cant win a war against farmers? There is a reason, and that is because Iraq is a war fought by citizins. Just like Korea and Vietman. We didn't win these wars and we wont win this one.

And Lets get one thing striaght I don't watch news programs on telivision to get my information. I am not a blind sheep to be told what to think. I get my information from history and scholars and soldiers, and lots of other people then take that information and form my own opinions.

And I have one thing to say about the Iraqi people wanting us there. It is very easy to say that you want something with out having to fight for it yourself.

When America was founded we didn't know how to rule ourselves, but we knew that we wanted something more and we tried for it. Hell we even made a whole government that failed before the one we have now. And I am talking about the Confederate States of America. We can be in Iraq till kingdom come, but untill the Iraqi people take a stand and root out the problem nothing is going to get done.

To assume that because the Iraqi people have not been succsesful at gaining control over their nation means they don't want it is ignorance. I guess the victims in Darfur just didn't want to live badly enough? This is the real world, the good guys don't always win and very rarely do they win it on their own. We couldn't have done it without the French;^]

I believe the comparison between the Rev. war and the current war in Iraq doesn't stand. Simply because the two countries ideals are/were different. At that point we were trying to divide as a nation from Britain, but we stood united on our own soil.
This is not the case in Iraq.
They are in the midst of a civil war over there and we are only fanning the flames.
Helping them to organize a democratic government (if they unanimously agreed that this was what they wanted) is very different from the situation that would have played out if France hadn't left us to our own devices. We are giving them the tools and showing them how to build.

I support the troops until the last comes home.

but may God end this war that man hath created.

You do realize we were winning Vietnam until the hippies had us pull out you know... We may have also won Korea if the soldier's hands weren't tied from fear of spreading conflict. Our problem is that we, as a country, can't commit to anything we get ourselves into because right after we get there people decide that it's no longer important. And oh, yeah by the way, yes, it would dishonor our troops by deciding that this war many have put their hearts and souls into, not to mention their lives, was no longer important. And further more, if we can't seal our borders before withdrawing, i say again we are endangering ourselves by pulling out. Right now terrorist organizations are fighting for a stronghold and it is tactically retarded to give them ground.

So basically you're sayin let's pack up and come home so we can focus on the real problem: Christians. Dude, you're gonna have fanatics regardless of where you are or what it is they're following. Some people just dedicate themselves completely to their ideas and live their life. As long as it's not affecting my life then I say let em have it! I'm not going to watch Jesus Camp. I don't need that movie to know how things are in Iraq. I was there (with Drivinmenutz actually, he was in my platoon) for the first election in Baghdad. Do you know how touching it was to see the women coming out of the building showing us the black on their fingers (signifying that they voted)? Trust me, the majority wants to be free and YES they ARE trying. We worked closely with the ING which is now the Iraq Army and do you know what kind of nightmare it was for their soldiers? Their families were beheaded on a daily basis just for serving. They suffer every single day and have completely dedicated their lives to the cause. So for you to assume, I'm sorry... for you to form opinions based on Abraham Lincoln... that they are being lazy and want to ride the US express as far as they can then you are mistaken. Read what blankpage wrote. She is so right on with that post. OH yeah, one last thing... ya know why we can't 'win' against a bunch of 'farmers'? A lot of those farmers are prior military or have been trained by militant groups. They are not stupid at all. Sure we have tanks, jets, bombs, M-4s, NODS, jetpacks, laser guns, and giant robots of destruction... but it's kinda hard to win when we're not allowed to use them. I have more right to defend myself over here in the states than I had when I was over there. If ANY kind of group needs to be stopped it's the ones that want to keep our hands tied and cry about what kind of interrogation techniques we use. I don't see the logic behind: "Hey, this man wants to murder my family so I'd like to put him up in a nice place and take really good care of him. Be careful not to hurt his feelings!!" I don't like the dumbasses that murder and rape and act like morons either, and yes they need to be punished... but everyone needs to step back and let us do our job.

As for Vietnam we were not winning on any account. The 35th parrallel, i think its called, was crossed so many times by both sides it might as well not been there. And your assertion that Hippies are the only reason vietnam ended is a Fallacy becasue hippies were less the .7% of the population. So it was not just hippies that did it. The hippies were vocal and got people to listen thats all.

I did not say that the Iraqis don't want freedom. What I said was its easy to ask or want for something when its not your money or blood paying for it. And as for Darfur its not that people don't want peace, but there is nothing anyone can do but the people of Darfur. The rebels use children as warriors and any violence that we try to stop means we hurt children. And By us giving them aid we are actually hindering there progress, but then I am getting of topic.

My opionions have nothing to do with troops. My opinions are based on politics not the pawns that are used. And I am not trying to insult the troops, I am just saying that my opinions are based on stratagy and leadership, not the people carrying out the orders.

The logic behind no torture is the fact that people have rights. And yes you are going to say terrorists don't have rights, but what happens when the people who can be tortured goes from terrorists to mass murderers. Well you say thats fine cuz they are just as bad. Then after a while they say well if mass murderers can be tortured why not someone who has only done premeditaded murders, or rapists, you know just to get information. Then its people who does drugs, you know to find out where they got them. Then its people who talk bad about the government etc etc. You may say thats far-fetched, but it has happend many times in history. And did you know that the patriot act redefined the term terrorist so that it now includes animal rights activits? Who next? Thats the logic.

But you know what you might just be right about torture. So you would be all for americans captured to be tortured for information on the invading american army. You know because its for thier national security that they are trying to protect. But you know I might be wrong we might be better then they are And you know what we should have more human rights then them cuz our killing people is much more moral then when they do it. So its ok for us to torture and them not to.

As for my revolutionary war example. I know we couldn't have won without the french thats very important to my example, what I am saying is that you cannot impose your will on other people and expect them to lay down and take it.

And as far as sealing our borders, all known terrorists have gotten into America leaglly. So our borders are not our problem its the enforcment of laws. (as they all stayed after thier visas expired)

I am not saying that christian are the problem they are just one example of the internal conflicts we need to fix. I was just comparing how we condem people we don't know, but think its ok when we do the same thing.
And once and for all Jesus Camp is not about Iraq its about radical christians in america who are sending their kids to a religios camp that is teaching them to become soldiers of God.

"I did not say that the Iraqis don't want freedom. What I said was its easy to ask or want for something when its not your money or blood paying for it"

Dude, where are you getting your info from? Seems to me the Iraqi people have lost the most blood. Again, you're assuming they don't want it "bad enough", and just as things got worse in Darfur because we refused to step in, if we just up & pull out of Iraq without a political sollution genocide is highly possible. Screw us for a minute, must us americans always be so selfish? Yes, I want our men & women home as much as the next man, but I want them to leave responsibly with minimal casualties;^]

What happens when Iraq becomes a stable democracy?

Afghanistan is impossible, the people have too much reliance on the opium and so does al Qaeda and other terrorist factions that survive because of the cash flow from it. Plus, the Afghanistan people have not the technological advancement like Iraq does nor have the people been educated as well and as long as the Iraqi people have.

Iraq is the best hope and though progress has been extremely slow, all we are looking at now is political stability to secure it.

Ok i gotta say this. What experience and background do you have in strategy? Political strategy is why we lost Vietnam. To support this i have a second cousin who was a Marine Force Recon during the war. He was killed because he was ordered to retake one of those famous hills in North Vietnam for the 4th time. Just because politicians felt we should pull back every time the NVA called a cease fire. Why? To show good faith just in case they wanted to end the war. The truth is they had a smaller army. In addition to that smaller army they had more casualties than the U.S. I don't know where you get your information. You have like 0 experience in life, not to mention with military strategy. Munch and i were on the front line. Unlike many soldiers who complained about having to go "outside the wire" (leaving the secure compound) one to twice a week, we had to do it for a minimum of 12 hours a day, every day for the better part of a year. You also don't believe the Iraqi people are sacrificing but the truth is they very much are. Almost all of the deaths happening around us were members of the Iraqi National Guard. Most of them wore face masks while on duty so there families would be safe at home. On top of physically fighting the insurgents munch and i also spent serveral years in a unit specifically assigned to train troops that were headed overseas. We were trained by U.S. intelligence officials to act like iraqis. This training was not only the tactical kind (anticoalition), but it was also cultural and some linguistics as well. We were taught to think like them. Their extremist mentallity is just that. It is all mental. We are reinforcing that mentallity by retreating. We are showing them that they are more powerful. This is the war they are waging. It's not all about body count to them. Do you really want to encourage their behavior? Also i have a question for you. What nationality do you think most of the insurgents that we killed or captured were? What honestly do you believe would happen to Iraq if we pulled out right now? Also what do you think would happen to the US if we lost the war? Do you think we would be stronger politically? Through your extensive experience, sitting in your swival chair listening to people talk, how exactly would you do things (strategically) and what would be your predicted outcome? All for now, I'll be back later.

1st off I have not ever attacked anyone on a personal basis becasue i disagree with them so i would appreciate if everyone else would refrian from doing so. No one knows me well enough to say what i have or don't have. I know that I am young and might not heve "been there", but I do believe that I am informed enough to make desicions.

About vietnam your right we could have won if we kept killing entire villages to route out 10 vietcong. We could have won if we slaughtered the other side, but then thats called genocide now isn't it. Its easy to win when you don't care about who you kill. And your right we had more men and better weapons
yet by the time we pulled out we were not close to winning, becuase we were not fighting another army with rules and structure, because we were mostly fighting civilians who wanted the government that they wanted and didn't want another country to interfere.

Second this is not a normal war we are fighting. A normal war is about polotics, or land , money or a million other things. As far as the terrorists are concerned we are fighting a Holy War. With that mentalitly nothing we can do will stop people from fighting. Becasue if you were in the same place you wouldn't either. As long as we are in Iraq anything we do is evil because this is a holy war, if we set up a government the governtmnet is evil by extension. And I don't think that peope should die because we are scared that the terrorists are going to be emboldened. They might be, and they might try to attack us, but thats why we have homeland security and everything else bush did to keep us "safe".

If we pulled out of Iraq right now there would be a blood bath. I am not dilusional about that. But we should then support a faction that we think would be best for Iraq give them the bases we have teach them how to use it etc etc. We can supply them with training and weapons and so forth, but Americans do not do the fighting. We help build an Iraqi army with there own leadership, that gets its orders from thier own government. And if any americans are in Iraq they have to answer to the Iraqi government.If the Iraqies need suport we give it to them, but we have no influence in the kind of government they build nor they laws that they create. We lend them money to build hospitals and schools and roads, and they use Iraqi workers and companies so these tings are not percieved as evil. This will create good will. Then we help them untill they don't need us anymore, but we cannot let them become dependent on us or will will never be out there.

So you know what tell me how you think it should be done to win this war? Do you have any plans or what I want to know how you think this war should be fought.

I know that Iraqis are sheding the most blood and I may be wrong here but they are the civilians who are dieing the most. The whole Iraqi people need to stand up and fight for what they want. If its like you people said and 50% of Iraq wants us there then it should be easy to win a war with them activly helping us. I know it might be hard and lots of people may die, but then a lot of people already are.

We cant step in in Darfur. They use childeren as warriors. How are we supposed to help. Any help we give will slaughter the children. And how would america look then? Would you want our soldiers to kill the brain washed children? Cuz if thats your answer then sign up and do it, and I don't want to hear any more about darfur untill you tell me what you think that we should do, cuz saying we should do something is really easy, but making a plan is the hard part.

You have a really unrealistic view of war & sollutions, you keep on about "if they" regardless that they do, and the majority doesn't always win. The people in Darfur having been begging us for intervention for years now & as always in Africa our government does nothing until it's too late. It's not a pretty scenerio, but war never is. So doing nothing is best? Wow, what compassion. So what should we do? How about deploying the troops the UN has already autherised? Man, it never ceases to amaze me the way the "war is never an option" crowd always retreats to "doing nothing is better than talking about doing something", at least talk gets it on the table, these people are being slaughtered by the thousands.

As for what it takes in Iraq, look up Bidens plan;^]

I am not saying that nothing should be done I am saying that there is nothing we can do. What ever we do is a lose lose situation. You say that we should use U.N. troops, but to do what. They have the same problems we do. What should be done. I am a firm believer that countries should take care of thier own problems, unless asked for help, and then only very little. I know that Darfur is a horrible situation, I know that and what is happening there is very sad, but I can see no way for us to help them. And I am not an advocate of intrude first think later.