I think it's also linguistics... The English lingo doesn't have a word to properly describe "nice".
In this context it sounds too much like Okay, Boring, Friend-material, Uninteresting.

The other option would be Great or Wonderful which would be interpreted as arrogant.

The Dutch word for "nice" doesn't have that 'boring-f@rt' feeling to it, nor the arrogant one, and is often used on dating sites.
So it really is at least partially a linguistic problem... In Dutch I could easily state "I'm a nice woman", in English it just doesn't convey the same message.

Yes , I do think that most women subconsciously want to feel protected by their mate both physically and emotionally, and there are a lot of complexities arising from the differences between men and women that impact heavily on our relationships. And yes, I dont think the average woman is looking fore "niceness" in a man alone. There is sooooo much more.

Ps: I read that book from John Gray years ago. It was very insightful :)

I agree Tmom.

Although there are exceptions to the rule,women tend to be a lot more forgiving of looks than men are. If the tables were turned, Im pretty sure that many men wouldnt give average looking women with nice looking personalities the time of day

I couldn't have said it better myself inni dreamz. Many of the "nice" guys lash out and accuse ALL women of being attracted to jerks. And ofcourse there are some emotionally unbalanced women who do that, but balanced women don't give jerks the time of day. They want men who are nice BUT they also want men who are strong and confident , who are capable of setting boundaries and silently commanding respect and who have a bit of adventure about them... not men who are overly predictable, clingy , oversensitive and whiney like some "nice" guys are. I don't think that many nice guys are the rejected because of all the "niceness" they possess, I suspect many are rejected because of the other qualities they neglect to develop in themselves because they are too busy waving their niceness around like a trump card.

I know right, sassy ?

Well that's the issue I have with some "nice" people in general John.

Being nice should not be seen as a means to an end. You are either nice at your core or you are not, irregardless of what results your "niceness" generates. If one views being nice as some kind of tool or magic potion to a better life, then you will give yourself an excuse to be unkind when you are not getting the results that you want.

I'm not accusing you of being that kind of guy John, but I am saying that people who choose to be nice because of the favorable results it garners them , may not be authentically nice at their core.

And perhaps this is what you might be alluding to when you say there might be something more going on with the "nice" guys who throw the pity party .

Hi Lu

This is exactly the point I was making to John. Being nice is not a trump card or magic potion to the mate or life of your dreams. There are mean people who somehow land very kind mates. I can't offer any justification as to why this happens. All I know is that what you said is true. If you are nice, you do it without expecting something in return. Ofcourse we are human, and it is natural that it will hurt us when people are unkind to us after we have been kind to them, but if our kindness is motivated by the favorable results it garners us, then I question the authenticity of that kindness

I think men want a hot version of June Cleaver, that turns into a dirty whore in the bedroom.

sometimes we are just too much for men to handle... too much of life.. of energy... of love... just too much... but it is good this way..

I'm with Joe on this, you ARE nice when people tell you, you are... It's not some kind of badge you can just pull out and show others as proof of your niceness because someone told you this once. It doesn't work that way.

You are absolutely right Peggy, those who play the "nice" card to get what they want are manipulating the recipients, that's not very nice IMO. When I said being nice works, I didn't mean it works at getting what you want, I meant, being nice works at living a better and more fulfilling life that attracts like minded people in general. That's the indirect reward.

True niceness is how you treat others who can do nothing for you, no advantages, no benefits. True niceness is how you behave when no one is watching. It's not an act, it's your go to, by default. plain & simple.

As for me, I'll be the first to biotch slap some mofo who is out of line but I'll also be the first to go out of my way to help. I know it doesn't completely qualify as being nice even though people tell me that, they're just not aware, I'm more authentic than "Nice".

And still wearing her pearls.

I suggest taking an extra step back from this ancient subject, and look at it more generically:

people commonly look for certainty in their lives. For ways of doing things, which they are reasonably confident will give them the results they seek.

When we want clean dishes, we usually use soap and hot water, because that seems to work a lot of the time. At least, that's what most people tell others who ask about how to arrange to eat off of clean plates.

In relationships, and pursuit of reliable mates, the same desire exists amongst EVERYONE, for a way to make sure we find someone who we can count on, AND for a list of ways for each of us to behave, so as to be our most attractive.

That's where this ultimately comes from. Women look for ways to pretend to be, which will attract the men they desire, and men look for ways to pretend to be, which will attract the women they desire.

Both men and women end up annoyed with each other for faking everything. Women are annoyed with men who pretend to be "nice" to bribe them, and men are annoyed with women who pretend to be "wildly sexual," or "ditzy," or whatever other fantasy version of "what men want" that women fool themselves into believing.

The men who play "nice" get an extra bad rap, simply because being "nice" is a bad gambit. If the "fake slut" approach fails for a women, she's unlikely to suffer general setbacks in her life because of it. If a man plays the "fake nice" game, fellow males will ostracize him, laugh at him, and any woman who isn't fooled by it, will put him in the "extreme rejection" bin, for being a liar, and even worse for being WEAK.

But anyway, I digress. Bottom line, the answer to why any males TRY the "nice guy" routine, is simply because it is one of the prominently listed suggestions in the massive "how to fool women in to letting you in their knickers" encyclopedia.

Likely my response to this...

I would ask you out for a date in a minute. But alas, we live so far away from each other!

Hi DavidM616.

With regard to what you said about women articulating that they want a nice guy, it's time that we all realise that people are looking for a lot more qualities than what they bother to state out loud ,because they assume these unspoken things are universally known. Here a few of those unspoken needs.

eg. Most women are looking for a man...

1. with a job that allows them to pay their share of the bills and enjoy a few luxuries as well like going out for dinner occasionally or travelling

2. who is above average in bed

3. Who is consistent in action and temperament but not overly predictable (which translates into boring a lot of the time.)

4. who is nice , but capable of being assertive setting boundaries with others when necessary

5. who grooms himself in a way that makes the most of looks ie wearing clothes that match and fit the body no matter what size or height it is, having a hairstyle that flatters the individual, trimming wild facial and nose hair etc . (Im sorry , but presentation matters in the dating world. )

And let's face it , men have their list of things they want, which they seldom state out loud eg a woman with a hot body, who is PHENOMENAL in bed, who doesn't nag, allows them lots of space to hang with their friends etc.

Secondly, with regard to your point about women not giving nice guys a chance romantically,it is a fact that some of the "nice guys" with average looks actually seek out more "hot/ glamorous" women out there, and reject the more "average looking " women with great personalities.

And that comes down to preference, which every person is entitled to regardless of their looks, age, gender, personality etc.

But my point is this.

If a "nice guy" with average looks feels entitled to seek out the "hot and glamorous" women out there, and reject the more "average looking " women with great personalities, then why are they so surprised and critical of the "hot/glamorous" women who reject the "nice guy" with average looks in favor of the "hot alpha" male. Is it not the same principle of PREFERENCE at play?

And can I make a side note here? I have often hear of "nice" men accusing women of choosing a "hot " jerk over an average looking nice guy , and the characterisation of jerk is based solely on the stereotype that all good looking men are brainless or heartless, which is not always the case. I have met many "hot" men and women who go against that stereotype , and who also happened to be kind, intelligent and talented. So when guys assume that it was only looks the woman was going for, they might be surprised to learn that the woman was also captivated by other qualities eg the man's confidence, assertiveness, lack of clingyness, etc. Im not saying that a nice guy with average looks can't have those qualities. Im just saying that the stereotype of the hot guy being a jerk is just as unfair as the stereotype that the nice guy is incapable of being passionate, spontaneous and assertive.

That being said, I appreciate your point that the nice guys are not always given the chance they deserve, but then again. Sometimes nice girls suffer the same fate as well at the hands ofthe nice guys.

This is what I was explaining to DavidM616, Inni Dreamz.


Realistically when men and women list the 5 qualities they want in a mate, believe and trust that there are 10 or more qualities that are unlisted dealbreakers, that have nothing to do with being nice. And I stated a few of those dealbreakers above

Most women are looking for a man...

1. with a job that allows them to pay their share of the bills and enjoy a few luxuries as well like going out for dinner occasionally or travelling

2. who is above average in bed

3. Who is consistent in action and temperament but not overly predictable

4. who is nice , but capable of being assertive setting boundaries with others when necessary

5. who grooms himself in a way that makes the most of looks ie wearing clothes that match and fit the body no matter what size or height it is, having a hairstyle that flatters the individual, trimming wild facial and nose hair etc .

And men have their list of things they want, which they seldom state out loud eg a woman with a hot body,(usually 5 to 10 years yonger) who is PHENOMENAL in bed, who doesn't nag, allows them lots of space to hang with their friends etc. Andh by the way, I have met several men who claim they want an intelligent woman , but who can't make it through the first 10 mins of conversation without pushing for details about my body and sex life.

Both sexes have to read BETWEEN THE LINES.

As for what you said about the people who claim they want nice people but choose jerks as mates, I consider such people to be emotionally unbalanced and therefore OUTSIDE the realm of what I consider to be desirable for me .

But as for people like you, me and millions of others out thereInni Dreamz , finding a suitable partner simply takes time and a lot of patience.

Loneliness is not a condition that inflicts nice people alone David. There are people from all walks of life, with all kinds of positive attributes, who struggle to find their life parter or suitable companion, and end up feeling dejected and alone.

I agree Blondey. You made reference to several legitimate scenarios.

There are people who fake niceness and that is an immediate turn off. But the there are the guys who are genuinely SUPER NICE, but because women are unaccustomed to that calibre of niceness in a sometimes callous world, it could actually lead a woman to be skeptical about the motives, which is unfortunate, but understandable so balance is the key as you said.

You are also right about sex appeal being the initial draw card . and I know this sounds politically incorrect but I truly believe that people who are considered to be plain looking have to invest way more time and effort into their grooming and wardrobe than a conventionally attractive person needs to. Even the way they carry themselves factors into the sex appeal they emit.

But then again, older people also require more time and effort for their grooming than a younger person does.

In my 20's I could literally roll out of bed , wash may face, stuff my hair into a ponytail and throw on a pair of faded jeans and t-shirt and effortlessly catch some stud's eye. If I do that now ( and sometimes I do) I don't get a second glance! I don't whine about it. I accept it as a natural part of life, and put in the extra grooming time and effort it takes to get the results I want.

And finally the point you made about "nice" being code for "not my type", is totally accurate. I know the guys in my life who never got out of the friend zone, were all guys who did not fit my preference , in one way or the other. Sometimes they were not very articulate, which is a deal breaker for me. Sometimes their lifesyle was too stationary for my liking, Or in some cases the person appealed to me physically and intellectually but our life goals or value systems were incompatible. Ive already tried a relationships like that where the person was awesome but heading in a different life direction and it didn't work, so Im not interested in trying that again.

This is why I ask the question if nice guys are simply rejected for being nice? Or are they oblivious to all the complexities involved in dating that transcend the tiny little box called "niceness".

I agree with you Ms H. And my answer to that is what Blondey mentioned about BALANCE.

I think most women want a guy who is nice, and I think most men want a woman who is kind too, but they also desire other qualities. It is not impossible to be nice and yet be assertive when the moment calls for it , or to be sensitive and attentive, without being whiney or clingy, or to be consistent in behavior without becoming overly predictable.It takes time to cultivate that balance, but it can be done.

I understand your point Crystal , and I agree that it is crucial to focus on the things we are seeking. But some of us are not even aware at times of what we are truly seeking or if it is realistic , or if it is conflicting with other things we want etc. We are all entitled to question any behavior that confuses us, and sometimes in hearing other people's responses , we gain insights, which may allow us to approach people or situations in a healthier fashion...Or sometimes we gain insights about ourselves and about some of the misguided notions we possess on certain issues . This is a forum for learning in my opinion.