Red...whether I am a Christian or not is yet to be seen. But, I am indeed as sinful as it gets. I once was a really bad female. I was ready, willing and very able to cause harm in many forms. To anyone and myself. I had ideas of better than, and actions to prove my ability to cause distress to others, not to mentin myself. I was more than happy to abide by my laws. To believe that mans laws were made to be broken. That God was a farce. That God was not real, that He was a lie. That there was no proof that there ever was a God. I was living proof, wasn't I?? My way of fighting anything that was supposed to be good, right or even reality. If it was wrong, I did it. If it was illegal...I tried it. To be fearful was not in my vocabulary. But...it had better be in yours. I was more than happy to show you what I was capable of.
I was an equal opportunity bigot. I hated everyone, everything. I was a miserable soul. But, I had no clue. I liked myself that way. Or so I thought. I was hateful, argumentative, resentful, hurtful, a liar, a bully. And that wasn't all that long ago.
What it was actually...was me. My fear in motion. My unhappiness at my world, and the world of those that loved me. my teachers, the ones that wanted only the best for me. The ones that I chose to make miserable and cry and worry.
What happend to change my mind was a miracle. A miracle in motion. My mind was changed, My heart was changed. My actions were changed. Something...someone showed themselves to me. There was proof given to me. Proof that I will not even try and explain. It is for me to know...to understand. It is seen in my life daily.
I have only healthy fear now. I harbour no hate. I harm no one. I respect the law, even if it catches me unaware. I love my human fellow. I wish only healthy loving and wonderful life for us all.
My being is now a being worthy of cause.
Kat

Ohhh.....and another thing; I do not believe God to be female. I think a female God would have done things different. I believe that God is of both genders spiritually.
(but....the male spirit, being male, wins over)LOL
Sorry. I just had to say that.
That was (the just had to have the last word) female part of me took over a moment there.
Kat

The more I try to teach the more I get taught. I am really cursed. I was trying to teach the aide who came back because she had been working as a counselor at the treatment center for a year and had gotten out of practice with being a nurse's aide. She told to treat her like she was new which was hard for me to understand since she was at the nursing home when I first got the job. Everything was going fine until I was telling her about this resident that I really have had trouble with. I was trying to spare her needless aggravation. I thought by being in the room with her until the resident got to know her would be helpful. Then the resident got combative like always. The aide told me it was okay that she liked combative residents and didn't need me. To me it was like the fox with the grapes. The fox couldn't reach the grapes so he said, "They must be sour. I didn't want them anyways." I can't but help but think of, "The Grapes Of Wrath" by John Steinbeck.

Redy wrote:

"Eljay - let emplain. In so very many posts I find that many Christians attribute sin to the devil. Therefore committing sin is evil. Many are fond of pointing the 'evil' in another or by using another's sin as an example of how evil contols us."

It often puzzles me why people claim that the devil is responsible for sin. Much like Adam claiming that "the woman you put here with me - she gave me some fruit and I ate it."
We (ah - that all encompassing we) often have a hard time not wanting to look outside of ourselves for someone or something to blame for the choices we make for our actions - or lack of it. I guess it's "human nature" to do that. Words/semantics so often get in the way of what is really being said. Most Christians did not come from a household that gently walked them through the basics of Christianity - lovingly pointing out the differences between right and wrong. More often than not - they are people who were imprissoned by their nature towards self distruction. Be it drug addiction, sexual addiction, compulsive lying or stealing, the list goes on. When you see posts like that you sighted, do you really think these people are stating that another's sin controls them because they somehow think they're better than the other person, or that they are witnessing someone walking down a path of distruction that they themselves have already experienced? When you see posts like these - consider that the poster may genuinely be reaching out to someone with sincere concern, rather than wanting to put themselves down to make themselves seem better or more important. Perhaps it could be true that they are doing this - I've certainly known my share of self-rightious Christians - but for the most part, Christians I have known or met have a sincere heart to reach out and share, not point fingures mockingly and accuse.

Abra I was regerring to your answer below to wench.

Wench wrote:
“I respectfully point out calling those that say they don't sin liers is merely a very biased opinion based on your individual belief and definition of the word.”

Where I then wrote:

well again I respect both of your answers.....but lets call an ace an ace here.....If someone says they do no wrong in every day life....that they live each day and are perfect.....never lie, never steal, never cuss, never say the Lord's name in vain......Always treat people with the utmost respect, never complain, never do anything wrong.....Well sorry boys but that is only Jesus and God in my opinion. And if anyone on this planet thinks they are perfect....well they are lying and hence they are liars....because no one is perfect.



abra says:
I don’t recall ever reading anywhere in the Bible where it says that it’s a sin to not be perfect.

Answer: Duh......because you know it's not....and my point if you wold of read what I said...was that it is impossible for man to be perfect. And any man who thinks so.....is decieving himself.

Abra Says:
I don’t believe that God is so obsessed with having people grovel for forgiveness that he wants us to scrape the bottom of the barrel seeking something to ask forgiveness for just so we can grovel.

Answer: First off it's not groveling to ask for forgiveness.....and you honestly truly don't have a conception of what Christ did for us. So this would of course be your answer.

Abra says:

Why would god be like that?
God gave us his only son......so that we could have everlasting life.......and no one grovels to God....and if you think that then your really warped on your sense of God, and what His role in the World is.

Abra wrote:
As you know, I view the Bible (the basis of Christianity) as having been written by men for the purpose of putting the ‘fear of god’ into their subjects. As far as I can see, this is the source of all this groveling.

Answer: I have no fear of God......

Abra says:

I don’t believe that our creator is obsessed with sin and salvation and having people grovel.

I just don’t see god as being like this at all.

For me, god is much more positive.


Answer: God's word will be heard by the whole world......what each individual person does with it is entirely up to them. But believe me everything that God does is with reason....and sooner more then later all will come to know what that is. No again this is not a scare tactic....It's just truth.....

"But believe me everything that God does is with a reason....and sooner more then later all will come to know what that is."

Well that will be cool.... but I can wait.

RE: "if anyone on this planet thinks they are perfect....well they are lying and hence they are liars....because no one is perfect."

When we say we're not sinners we- or I should say I- are not saying that we never do wrong. I know I'm not "perfect" (far from it). I just don't believe in "sin".

I try not to harm others but it happens. And when it does I try to make it right as much as possible and I TRY to learn from it and not repeat the same thing again... but I feel no need to confess or ask god to forgive me. I talk to god constantly throughout the day- but that's for me, not god.

I think it's partly that the word "sin" itself has such a strong negative connotation that it's almost impossible for those who don't embrace these concepts to communicate about this word with those who do....

Hi All, sorry, been away awhile. I have read all the posts though, but afraid I'm too far behind to catch up. So let me just say that this is not the way I expected this thread to unfold - but then none of the unfolds in any way I would have expected.

"sin" is really a hard thing to pin down. First of all, the word itself seems to have a connection to the practice of religion. Basically what I've discovered is that, specifically, among Christians there are two classes of sin.

There is sin, which is the fundamental wrongdoing that directly offends God. As in idol worship, or dismissing God, or using it's name in vein or as a curse or in any other way that directly dishonors God.

Now in my view, the only one's who can be guilty of such sin, are those who believe in God and that they have some strange ability to offend It. So I have to point out to Christians that those who have no connection to the Christian belief do not feel they are sinning, simply because, if they believe in a god at all, it's not the same figure that Christians believe.

So in the future, please refrain from referring to others as sinners, in this respect, because only those who believe as you do, can be sinners - the others are not. Different beliefs, different values placed in those beliefs and different mindsets.
Calling someone a sinner, who does not have your belief system is seen as a judgment and not a very nice one - especially considering the fact that EVERY Christian 'believes' they are sinners. You don't like being a sinner, but you have your out, in the value you place on Jesus - calling others a name that you connect with something bad, knowing that they have no wish to change their beliefs, is inconsiderate, judgemental, and egotistical. It's like a very rich person condeming the poor because they don't try hard enough. Not nice so quit pointing out YOUR SIN in others.

As for the second type of sin - that seems to be more related with morals. For instance, murdering, stealing, coveting, gossiping, adultery, sex outside of marriage, divorce, homosexuality, judging others based on some personal bias,and that's just to name a few - have somehow been labeled sin.

Many Christians say we do these things because we are weak and therefore open to be tempted by Satan. But the thing is ALL HUMANS do some of these things. This is part of the Christian 'TRUTH' as evidenced in many threads.

Now this is confusing, becaue there seems to be no differentiating morals from sin. In affect acting immorally is a sin and must be stopped. But how can it be stopped if it's an innate part of our being?

A Christain who gets divorced has no choice but to STOP BEING DIVORCED. But I don't see Christians who are divorced asking for forgivness and then returning to an unhappy situation, thereby - stopping the action of being divorced! The same is true of adultry - because according to Christians, any time one fantasizes, while having sex with their partner, is committing adultery. But in spite of this, even though EVERY Christian CONTINUES to SIN - they still expect homosexuals to STOP SINNING. WTF?

So stop pointing fingers, stop juging, stop making a determination of who will be with you in that hell you think you won't be going to.

THAT IS WHERE I EXPECTED THIS THREAD TO GO - but obviously there are some Christians whose mind has become so limited by the narrow focus of the man created dogma of their religious beliefs that they can no longer live in a society whose MORALS are based on getting along, extending courtesy, lending a helping hand, without infringing or enforcing your limits on others.

Redy;

you wrote:

"Many Christians say we do these things because we are weak and therefore open to be tempted by Satan. But the thing is ALL HUMANS do some of these things. This is part of the Christian 'TRUTH' as evidenced in many threads.

Now this is confusing, becaue there seems to be no differentiating morals from sin. In affect acting immorally is a sin and must be stopped. But how can it be stopped if it's an innate part of our being?"

>>> That's the point. It can't. It is impossible for anyone to go through life without having done SOMETHING wrong. And this is not a surprise to God. Because man is weak. He is essentially self seeking, prideful, and pleasure seeking - despite the consequences. Seem unfair? Sure. But that doesn't change anything. And as a side note - sin is merely not doing that which is right. Be that commission, or omission. Has nothing to do with the 2 limited definitions you described - though they are part of what is "doing wrong". If you don't see Christians who are divorced not asking for forgiveness - that begs the question "are they Christians?". The issue isn't that gays and lesbians are "sinners" because of their sexual preference. They are people. No different than the evangelists who stand on the pulpets pointing their fingers at the camera's claiming all to repent. Easiest job in America standing before those camera's making those claims. Because at it simpliest level - it's true, and it could be anyone before that camra making that claim. People are just bound to do something wrong. Not a judgement about anyone - just a fact.
And sin has no "qualifier". The guy who won't get up and offer his seat to an elderly woman is no better a person than Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy in the "eyes" of God. Their sins accomplish the same goal. Separation from God. So - despite what you seem to think - I know of no Christian who is establishing a "caste" system based on a perception of how "bad" a sin may be. If they are - to me that is an example of a non-Christian, or what I call a "Psuedo-Christian. One who is a Christian in name only.

Eljay, given everything you just said, it would be beyond hypocritical for you or any Christian NOT to extend the same societal liberties and legal benfist under the law as any other Christian sinner.

Yet GLBT are not even welcome in most Christain churches.
Nor do the majority of Christians lift a finger to help them attain equality that would afford the the same lifestyle that every 'sinful' Christain currenly has.

Can you explain why? Can anyone and not sound hypocritical?

Ok .. you wanted them (well some of them)

I have contributed to the delinquency of a minor. I have her convinced that I’m the greatest thing since sliced bread, and it’s only a matter of time before she learns otherwise.

Although, while we’re on the subject, I would like to thank you for younger women and their willingness to worship me. So, thanks.

I have allowed multiple women to fall in love with me against their better judgement. They know it’s wrong, but I do nothing to hinder the falling.

In the future, I promise to try to be more difficult to adore. Though you and I both know that telling women not to love me makes walking on water look like a piece of cake.

My cousin is going to have a baby, and she’s never even had an orgasm. Although that’s not my sin, I feel that it’s big enough that it should be confessed by everyone within earshot.

I ate three bowls of chilli in one sitting. Then I threw up. So I think you already took care of that one. Praying at the great white telephone ...

Does staying in bed yelling “Oh, God,” not constitute praying?

so Belushi, of the Seven deadly sins, which one have you enjoyed the most??

Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride

Now then!!

the top three are all parts of being a diving instructor. So when I partake in them, its only as a professional! I dont enjoy them, its just part of the job.

the bottom three are not ones I partake in on a regular basis, and the last two, very very rarely.

Sloth is a difficult one ...

Hanging upside down from a tree in a woolly coat isnt a big thing around these parts, but in Malaysia its a bit more popular.

So, of all of them, I would have to say .. phew ... err ...

Lets change the emphasis a little

The Roman Catholic Church also recognizes seven holy virtues which correspond to each of the seven deadly sins.

Lust (excessive sexual appetites) Chastity (purity of soul)
Gluttony (over-indulgence) Temperance (self-restraint)
Greed (avarice) Charity (giving)
Sloth (idleness) Diligence (zeal/initiative)
Wrath (anger) Forgiveness (composure)
Envy (jealousy) Kindness (admiration)
Pride (vanity) Humility (modesty)

I think I fail on the first one ...
the 2nd one is a little hazy too ...
number 3 I do ....
4? Yep I count
5? Yep this one too
6 ... on a roll
7? Well, this one is a sticky one, because its hard to be humble when you are perfect in every way!

so we have on the bad side 3 yes, 1 abstention and 3 no
on the good side we have 4 yes 1 abstention and 2 no

So in the grand scheme of Catholicism [shudders] ... Im ok

Redy;

Eljay, given everything you just said, it would be beyond hypocritical for you or any Christian NOT to extend the same societal liberties and legal benefits under the law as any other Christian sinner.

>>> Yes, to a point. I believe that everyone should be seen as equal under the law - until it is mis-interpreted to benefit an individual's personal preference. Case in point - I don't think the ACLU should be suing a prison for the right of a pedifile to have pornography supplied to him while incarcerated unser the guise of his "constitutional right." <<<

Yet GLBT are not even welcome in most Christain churches.

>>> Because some churches take the bible literally, and believe that a "GLBT" are unrepentant - and by biblical standards would be hypocritical in accepting them. I have been to churches where I know this is what they believe. So I ask - why would a "GLBT" want to be a part of this church? I am not allowed to recieve communion at a Catholic church because I do not adhere to their tennets - fine. They have their established tennets - it's what differentiates them from other denominations. I don't feel that they should now cater to my wishes because I chose to believe what I believe, but I don't think it's right to force them to accept me. I just don't have that right, nor should I care, but just because they may consider me "below them" does not make it so. I view the "GLBT"
the same way. I don't consider you any less of a person because you aren't wanted in the Catholic church. Isn't it their loss? <<<

Nor do the majority of Christians lift a finger to help them attain equality that would afford the the same lifestyle that every 'sinful' Christain currenly has.

<<< I'm not up to speed as you are with what the inequalities are - aside from the religious "bias" that I sighted above and related circumstances (i.e. living conditions, job employment in environments that are exspressly religious). What would be an example of this? (And I consider marriage to fall under the "religion" catagory)

Can you explain why? Can anyone and not sound hypocritical?

<<< That is my explination - not my belief. Whether that is seen as hypocritical by those who believe what they do - they do so because it is a particular understanding of the bible. To behave otherwise - would be more hypocritical, would it not? Many of the "laws" (biblical concepts) that Christians have do not aline themselves with the laws of society, and when given the option - all Christians would chose God before man. To not do so, would be hypocritical. And you are aware of the passages in the bible that relate to the GLBT topic - and whether or not you agree with how they are interpreted - which you have expressed your right to do - are not other people free to interpret them how they see fit? So this is often the underlying reason why a GLBT is not "accepted/wanted/welcomed" in an establishment where the bible is taken literally, any more than why a neighborhood does not accept a registered sex offender with open arms. Again, I don't agree with the practice, because I believe that before a rash judgement be made on someone, the effort to want to know them should be made - but I understand why it is done. Because people are "sinners". And hypocracy is - well, a sin.

Eljay, I credit your bravery in attempting to reply. Please allow me a rebuttal.

= >>>Eljay speaking<<<
>>> Yes, to a point. I believe that everyone should be seen as equal under the law - until it is mis-interpreted to benefit an individual's personal preference. <<<

And under the inclusion of preference are you including those Christians, who hide from paying child support? Who divorce and remarry, sometimes more than once? Those who commit adultery in the flesh and in the mind – repeatedly? Those who would withhold their love from family and cast them out of their lives, because of a sin? Because Eljay, if these are not, admittedly, the people who make up the congregation of any Christian Church, then we can add hypocrisy to each and every one of their list of 'ongoing, continual'not repentant sins.

>>>Case in point - I don't think the ACLU should be suing a prison for the right of a pedifile to have pornography supplied to him while incarcerated unser the guise of his "constitutional right." <<<

You are discussing a convicted felon, who has an illness that causes deviancy, is that how Christians view homosexuality?

>>>So I ask - why would a "GLBT" want to be a part of this church?<<<

Because, dear Eljay, homosexuals are found in every walk of life. That means that no matter how much the Christian community hates to admit it, they are their children first. They have been raised in this community, where once they were loved and accepted. In it was the comfort of home and family but they are cast out as if their ‘conceived sin’ is the only one that exists as if it will contaminate the rest.

This type of hypocratic behavior totally belies the words that such Christians speak. Why would the GLBT want to be a part that? INDEED! But my heart aches for those who have lost all that they were taught to take comfort in. There can be only ONE reason that any Christian could not ache over the loss of those they accepted and loved as family, and that reason is to continue to SACRIFICE that which they love, in the name of cleansing their own sin. Is that not the greates sin of all?

>>>I am not allowed to recieve communion at a Catholic church because I do not adhere to their tennets - fine. They have their established tennets - it's what differentiates them from other denominations. I don't feel that they should now cater to my wishes because I chose to believe what I believe, but I don't think it's right to force them to accept me. I just don't have that right, nor should I care, but just because they may consider me "below them" does not make it so. I view the "GLBT"
the same way. I don't consider you any less of a person because you aren't wanted in the Catholic church. Isn't it their loss? <<<

Isn’t it everyone’s loss? How can the Christian community ever expect the respect of any non-Christian?
If their beliefs make them blind to their own sinful nature, while their dogma requires a commitment to defile the rights of others because of a sin – is it any wonder how Christianity has gained such a bad reputation?


<<< I'm not up to speed as you are with what the inequalities are - aside from the religious "bias" that I sighted above and related circumstances (i.e. living conditions, job employment in environments that are exspressly religious). What would be an example of this? (And I consider marriage to fall under the "religion" catagory)<<<

By all means let me explain.
“Gay, lesbian, bisexual, heterosexual and transgender Americans can be fired from their jobs, refused work, paid less and otherwise subjected to employment discrimination because of their sexual orientation or gender identity with no recourse under Federal law. Currently, it is legal in 31 states to fire someone based on their sexual orientation and also legal in 39 states to fire someone based on gender identity.”

Again, Eljay, there is absolutely NO recourse for such action. Why? Because the laws that allow recourse for such discrimination are ALL included in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The EEOC was an offshoot of that Act and it can not be utilized by the GLBT community.

This FORCES many to hide their life and lifestyle from employers, to lie and to be reclusive and often, to seem unsocial and uncaring. This is the view people get of Gays and Lesbians, because it’s a life of secrecy and lies that has been forced upon them, in order to keep a job in a company that does not accept their lifestyle.

Being fired is only part of the equation here. There are benifits that they are denied because the law does not recognise the extension of their family.

Also, while it’s against the law to pass on judgmental information from one employer to another, there is nothing to stop one from telling another that the individual was fired because of their sexual orientation. Again, there is no recourse, the law supports every minority “noted” and allows no exception for the unmentionable.

Lawyers, dental assistants, firemen, policemen, educators, many highly educated people doing manual labor because it’s the only job they can now get. Ask again why there is such animosity among the GLBT, why there is a higher rate of alcohol and drug abuse within the GLBT community? And then ask, where is their family, where is their church, where is the law that is supposed to give everyone the freedom to pursue happiness?

And then ANSWER, how would allowing the GLBT community Equal Employment Opportunity and Equal Employment Protection, under the law – be affecting Freedom of religious exercise? Because Eljay, you did not succeed in presenting any argument in reference to this quesiton.