I have to say I don't see how attacking another will ever bring anyone more peace.

I don't know why so many people can't learn that. So many seem to think they can bully everyone else into behaving.

Does this work with your children? Would it work on you? Does it work on you?

When you see or hear about *our* soldiers being tortured or attacked does it make you want to be nicer or more cooperative towards those who perpetrated these acts?

Because that's not what I see happening...

it depends on the situation. if putting the squeeze on someone potentially will save others lives, then i say get the thumbscrews. War aint pretty but to win and keep losses down sometimes you have to do such things.

As I read the different posts on this thread, I am truly saddened and quite frankly angered that America's standing as a global leader in human rights and a country with a deep and abiding respect for the rule of law continues to be undermined by the pro-torture policies of the Bush Administration. Saddened and angry also by people's general opinion which

Many Americans agree, and I hope it is a majority:
... an essential part of winning the war on terrorism and protecting the US and the western world for the future is safeguarding the ideals and principles that Americans and western nations hold dear: that torture is not acceptable and the law must be respected (US and international law).

In my opinion, another less visible battleground in the Iraq war has been the American Constitution. Under the broad mantle of national security, the Bush Administration has claimed exemption from the protections enshrined in our Constitution and defined in International agreements. Prisoners continue to be detained for years without acknowledgment of their whereabouts, without counsel. They are subjected to extremes of deprivation and torture.

Unfortunately, as our bedrock principles have eroded, I believe our legislators have been compliant, the media timid, and the courts mostly rudderless and conflicted. We are left - as so often in times of national crisis - to depend on individuals who have the courage to speak out.

As some posts suggest here, to defend the position that torture is OK in certain circumstances, or to keep avoiding the topic of violation of human rights by the US, with petty partisan bickering, is more of a threat to democracy than terrorism itself.

the only way to win this war is to destroy the enemy utterly, without mercy and take the spoils. That is what conquerers do. . This the rest of the world WOULD understand. Whether we sqweeze some enemy combatants or not is a non issue... to me, to the enemy and to everybody who isnt a bleding heart liberal. FYI Bush didnt invent torture, so get over that one too. Its as old as mankind. I believe torture for the sake of amusing the guards is wrong, but as an intelligence gathering tool, it is invaluable, if unsavory.

....and if someones family members are offended... so what? they are the enemy. Please Quit coddling those who would gladly kill you for the fun of it.

Conquerers?
I guess the truth is finally slpping out. One little piece at a time.
Destroy them ALL? Take everything that was once theirs?
May as well torture them while you're at it!

rAMBILL,


SUCH ABUSE OF FREE SPEECH PRIVILEGES SHOULD BE A CRIMINAL ACT!!!


Wouldn't you agree?

they are the enemy.... Do you know what that means? It means they want to kill you, rape your wife and kids, torture them for laughs, ect. The LOVE YOU HAVE FOR THEM IS NOT RECIPROCAL. sorryaboutit.

"The love you have for them is not reciprical"....

because you TORTURED them.... and because you declared war on them...

it's not that hard to maintain good relationships with others... you can start by not telling them what to do and not critisizing their core values... and it definitely doesn't help to do them physical harm.

Why have "enemys" at all? But even if you do have enemys, in this example it is supposed to be a small group, al quida et al, who are the enemy, not an entire country full of people... many who were grabbed and tortured turned out to have nothing to do with ali quida.

"oopsie?"

Here comes the love everyone principal again......
Think they'll stop killing us if we leave and spout love to them and their culture? Not!!!!!!
Once again you make the same mistake Chamberlain did. Appeasemant will only make them bolder and failed then and will fail now.
Hitler wanted Europe these nutbags want the world.

Hey Voil,
Did you read what McCain said?

To prevail in this war we need more than victories on the battlefield. This is a war of ideas, a struggle to advance freedom in the face of terror in places where oppressive rule has bred the malevolence that creates terrorists. Prisoner abuses exact a terrible toll on us in this war of ideas. They inevitably become public, and when they do they threaten our moral standing, and expose us to false but widely disseminated charges that democracies are no more inherently idealistic and moral than other regimes. This is an existential fight, to be sure. If they could, Islamic extremists who resort to terror would destroy us utterly. But to defeat them we must prevail in our defense of American political values as well. The mistreatment of prisoners greatly injures that effort.

"John McCain"

We're on the same page Fanta.

On this and other subjects, McCain has gained my respect.

You're doing a great job with this post Fanta. The angle you bring is at the heart of the matter.

rambil u really struck a nerve with this "bleeding heart liberal", the united states is a world power, that means a leading nation in affairs of state EVERYWHERE,
IF not for the humanitarian objections to torture think of the way it tarnishes our military reputation as thats CLEARLY more important i can guess due to ur other posts that humans really dont matter to u since u call those who give a damn "bleeding heart liberals" but hey name calling has its place in politics as obviously proven by the failing govenrment that u defend

yeah, well iran, egypt, lybia, china, russia, most of s.e. asia,
turkey, most of africa torture innocent people !
what's your point ?

This is my reply to Serchin4MyRedWine's
assertion that Jose Padilla was never
transferred to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba
(or Gitmo as military people call it).

That may very well be, but he might as well
have been.

He was detained for 3 1/2 years without charges
and may have been tortured during that time.

It's even more scary if this happened in a
military brig on American soil and not Gitmo.

Here's a Time article link on this, you be the judge:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1565798,00.html

Think if someone you don't know met you at an airport,
arrested you, said you did things you didn't do,
then kept you in a brig for years without charging
you with anything.

rambill i am behind you all the way on this one.

the fact that you are 'tolerant' and feel sorry for the enemy isn't going to save you when you get caught up in their jihad.
you are still westerners, and interlopers, and you will still
be destroyed. they don't care that you feel for them-they still hate you and will get their virgins in heaven on your tortured
and dismembered carcass.

hey hanged...didn't see you there.

hope all is well.

tinabell its rather ironic that with ur fascist viewpoint u have an andy wharhol-esque pic, thats like me having me having a pic of rumsfeld

what a sick irony
a culture of fear is not ok no matter the reasoning, the united states needs to set an example for the other nations of the rest of the western world, not b the epitomy of its corruption

Lizardking,
are you really only 18? You have an intelligence and understanding that belies your age!!

My respect Young man. There may yet be hope for this country!!