For one we did not have the right to refuse sex from our husbands. It used to be called marital duty now it's called rape. The list goes on. Human rights is a relatively new concept, so is the concept that women are human. In practice human rights are not a given unless they are acknowledged by man.

Feminism started out as a great movement. Like many other great ideas, it got twisted over time. I see a lot of the feminist movement becoming almost anti-men or lifting women above men to be superior instead of equal

JMO

And I see a lot of people painting all feminists as evil. The men who were threatened by feminism were the ones who twisted it, they thought that women shouldn't be treated as equals. The negative way in which feminists are being portrayed just means we have a lot more work to do.

I know this isn't because of my post since I said nothing of the sort. I didn't say all of the movement. And I don't believe all feminists are the same any more than all men are.

I agree with basha. I don't need to be a feminist to be just as important as anyone else. I know my worth. I know my strengths and weaknesses. I am a human that happens to be female

Your point being?

I think I made my post clear. Didn't I?

What the ESSENCE/BATTLE is all about for the basic Feminism/Feminist it's the same top 5 social structure issues that we struggled with back in the mid 60's seems to hold true for the 21st century also!

1. The Division of Domestic Labor: all joking aside when I hear TV shows like 'Duck Dynasty' and how papa Robertson is being quoted for his sermons about 'getting them young and bringing them up right' {in reference to his lovely Ms Kay - yes, he did marry her} but to expound on such rhetoric from his pulpit when he's got a media following --- UGH that 'AGE' of Ms Kay will get you prison time in most states in America! She was 14yrs old on their first date! But in his world it makes a better wife because she was better able to be trained; sounds more like a hunting dog then an equal life partner in a marriage and I like that woman from what I've read about her! But she stood by his drinking/drugs and raised a family despite his wayward ways --- she did that! Did your dad help out around the house - do any domestic chores - help with raising the children; or was he seen and not heard?
2. The Media this is the real stickler; take the recent birth of Princess Charlotte Elizabeth Diana - the bloggers were going off the wall about how her mommy looked as she walked down the steps from the hospital! We can't allow that woman to have a gracious moment to be just a great looking human without either tearing he down and making fun of her baby bump and wondering 'why didn't she wear a SPANKEX' to hide that belly??? WOW - and it was women being cruel to another woman making those statements! We make fun of Hollywood stars/poke fun of what they wear/who they date/when they gain weight/whey they lose weight - and all that sells those magazines - Don't buy them! Put the paparazzi out of business; do we need to know every finite detail of all their private life just because some one has a telescopic lens - NO. Princess Diana would still be alive had this not been necessary!
3. The Glass Ceiling It will be interesting this coming 2016 election process to see how many debasing attacks come out about the 'looks/age factor/what they wear' for the female candidates that are now running for POTUS. Rarely - if any have these same issues ever come up in any articles - in any media moment for any male gendered coverage; but it has happened clear back to when Geraldine Ferraro was running for VP 1984 - they sliced & diced her like a hyena pack on a dead water buffalo. Some of you may recall what Sarah Palin suffered through; are we there yet --- not hardly!
4. Social Inequality Globally this is still an issue; even with this the 21st century! The #1 trade commodity for sale next to drugs is 'sex/slave trade' and it's young girls! Fair & equal wages for doing the same job would be an great place to start; gee we've fought for that back in the 60's and isn't it sad that we're still carrying that barge into the 21st century - WHY??? Even the top upper echelon of fortune 500 companies have been busted for paying male CEO's higher then their replacement female counter parts and the qualifications were met & exceeded by the resume's and prior job reviews for that one position! SMH - sad that some don't think feminism isn't needed - granted - maybe not for 'YOU' but for your daughter/grand daughter, their future is what we work for.
5. Violence Against Women Domestic violence; seems we have a few that post about it right here...has it disappeared? NFL - is finally taking a pro-active response to their player issue; shocking isn't it that it's 2015 and they are finally seeing a problem with how their mega bucks paid players are being viewed by the public after a arrest warrant has been issued! Yet, again - Globally if we don't support those young ladies that are fighting just to be able to walk to school - get an education - be treated like a human instead of less than the family cow then we show them no hope!

Sure 'Feminism' has come a long way since the early 60's and yet when I read what those women were called and what they suffered just for standing up and saying 'no more'...it does make me sad that some of our 'sisters' of today think it doesn't matter!

I think this is a good point to turn this whole discussion on it's head.

For the longest time, I've also been looking to settle down with someone that I could love and who would love me back. Someone who would be interested in building a life together - in mutual respect and love. Recently, however, I have come across the MGTOW phenomenon and that has opened my mind (if not completely blown it away) by a poster known as 'sandman'. For the longest time, I couldn't really understand female nature for what it was, but now (after listening to sandmans posts) I'm starting to understand that it's a survival instinct.

The whole issue with feminism is the "Patriarchy". And this probably started with the Catholic Church in Europe, Islam in the Middle East, etc. Another female poster on this thread made alot of mention as to how feminism fought against the forced roles which society made her play (ie secretary, young mother, etc.) But what she doesn't see (or want to see) is the fact that men were equally forced into specific gender roles as well. Before the Catholic Church existed in Europe, men in the Roman empire lived for themselves, and women were treated as a fairly useless commodity - usually the spoils of war, and sold into slavery, though never as valued as a stronger male slave. However, after the Church came around, men were forced into living their lives either for God or for their families. And unlike many other religions of the time, women were even allowed to attend Mass - something which the Jewish and Moslem religions still don't allow today. But at the same time, all of the space which men had for themselves at the time as Romans just disappeared.

This has pretty much stayed the same in western civilization for 2000 years. For most of that time, men had to spend their blood, sweat, tears and even their lives to provide for and defend their families. For all that time (and even today - if you look at some posts on this forum) when a man could not provide for his family, he was put down, denigrated, and viewed as a failure. Has anybody asked why? Is this equality? If we are living in an era of equality and fairness - why are men still looked at as being necessary to provide for the family? Even today, most married men usually die sooner because of the stress they live under to provide for their families. Yet the question is... why do men do this?

So, after 2000 years, Christianity and the power of the Church has finally come into decline. Isn't it odd that at the same time, feminism came into existence to shame men to provide more power to women, and to do more for women? Just take a look at all of the cities, roads and suburbs. Every single roof you go under, every road you drive on, every house you live in, in fact our entire western civilization has overwhlemingly been built by men. Why? Because in the 20'th century, women wanted the security of a home in the suburbs in order to raise a family. However, due to better health standards (again mostly done by men to improve the lives of the women they loved), there was no reason to have 10 kids like they did in the past... which made for alot of bored women at home, while their husbands worked their hands to the bone at a lousy 9to5 job to again provide for their families. In other words, men have been killing themselves and building western civilization for the last 2000 years just to have access to a woman's reproductive organs.

With the advent of the pill, however, that all changed. A woman now had control over her reproductive process and the whole idea of being stuck and lonely in the suburbs (2 kids at school, husband at work) was no longer appealing. For the longest time, I was against feminism. I always viewed it as an attack on men... and if you look at it honestly, that is what it has become today. I don't think you will ever go to a feminist rally and not hear some women shouting how all men need to be killed. But now I am starting to fall in love with feminism, since it too has the possibility of setting men free.

There has been a push for getting women to make up half of all CEOs in the board room. Initially I thought... "so what about the men that are already there? Do we just trample on their rights and fire them to make room for women?" But at this point, I'm all for it. In fact, I think we need to force all of the industries to change. We need half of all the positions for miners, garbage men, construction workers, policemen, firemen, janitors, lumberjacks, couriers, snow plower drivers, etc. should be filled by women. I think it's high time for equality in our society, and it's time for women to step up to the plate and provide for their families as equally as men have for the last 2000 years.

At the same time, men will be more free to follow their own interests and pursuits, and will no longer need to worry about raising a family or providing for one if they choose not to have one. With the advent of the abortion pill (or day after pill), women will now need to have consent from a man to have his child rather than force paternal responsibilities on him. Otherwise, if she chooses to have the child, then the man will not be responsible for paying support... since he did not give his consent. Men will have much more disposable income in their pockets, rather than working for 30 years at a job they hate in order to pay off their mortgage. And men will finally be able to enjoy the fruits of their labours without requiring to share them as the Church and society has shamed them into doing for the last 2000 years. Just as women have decided to take control of their own lives, and decided to live according to what they believe is best for them at that time without caring what men think, so too will men now be free to live their lives without worrying about what women think.

Equality is a good thing!

If you realized and people realized that women do work, they always have worked, they've worked overtime, multitasking day and night, raising children, doing housekeeping...maybe then you would realize that equality is men doing most of the financial providing. As man's work has gotten physically easier, so has housework gotten easier for women. When men used to work hard labor jobs, not sitting at a desk all day, women had no modern amenities to maintain the home or the kids. What I'm saying is both men and women worked hard for their families.

ive always said that men and women are equal in their own roles. like it or lump it a woman has the **** for a reason.

> If you realized and people realized that women do work, they always have worked, they've worked overtime, multitasking day and night, raising children, doing housekeeping...maybe then you would realize that equality is men doing most of the financial providing. As man's work has gotten physically easier, so has housework gotten easier for women. When men used to work hard labor jobs, not sitting at a desk all day, women had no modern amenities to maintain the home or the kids. What I'm saying is both men and women worked hard for their families.

Yes... men and women always worked hard. But it is mostly because of modern amenities (ie machines) that life has gotten easier for both sexes. But I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say I should "realize that equality is men doing most of the financial providing". Are you saying that men should just shut up and be walking wallets? To just provide money to women for their hard work in the home?

I mean - today even minning mostly requires a person to just load rocks and drive them to the elevator to be processed - all by machine. It might be dirty working a couple of kilometers underground, but a woman can handle that easily these days. So don't worry, soon women should all apply to mining jobs (and similar types of jobs) and be able to to do all the work themselves and not need men to provide the "finances". Again it might be a dirty job, but I'm sure it's alot better than being forced to stay at home and raise a family, wash dishes, cook meals, clean, etc. I mean, from what others are writing, the life women had before feminism was hell by comparison.

So - all the best to you and your new career outside of the home.

"ive always said that men and women are equal in their own roles. like it or lump it a woman has the **** for a reason."

Well... we USED to have roles. But now, with gender equality, and technology, there is nothing a man can do that a woman can't. So, a man can cook a meal (I think they used to call them chefs) or clean ( I think they used to call them janitors) and a woman can be a truck driver going from one side of the continent to the other, or a farmer, or whatever she wants to be.

Unfortunately, alot of women believe that equality means that they will become CEOs in the boardrooms of America. Unfortunately there are what... a couple of thousand CEOs in the whole country? So the chances for most women (and men btw) of becoming a member of the board are pretty much zero. So most likely, as feminist equality sets in, there will no longer be the old patriarchy safeguards to make sure that women get only 'female' type jobs. Since now even most men are now pushing for equality - this means that ALL jobs which used to be dominated by men will be equal with women.

By necessity, this means that women will no longer have the option of raising families in the past. Especially since with such a large population on this planet, most men have also been convinced that we actually need to have less children rather than more.

Hmmmm, you seem to jump all over this conversation and went off the rector scale!
Monarchy: of the 20 existing in Europe, Scotland had the oldest the first recognized king of all Scotland was Kenneth MacAlpin whose reign began about 840 AD. There was an interregnum and civil war at the end of the 13th Century after the death of Margaret, Maid of Norway, while 43 rival claimants battled for the throne. Scotland was united with England in 1603 when James VI of Scotland assumed the English crown on the death of Elizabeth Ist. And 'WOMEN' played a very big roll in those 'MONARCHY' era's...securing land and borders with former enemies - arranged marriages were a primary source of obtaining this and often while the babies were in their infancies too.
You ought to do some reading about all that - it's really quite fascinating and highly entertaining: lots of drama/evil deeds/family deceit/cheating/poisoning/beheadings and challenges to the seated throne but there were a few 'QUEENS' in there too - obtained by their own ranks and land least you forget that! Good Grief - SMH



Geee, what little credit you give all of those women {my mother's generation} that put down those knitting needles/irons & ironing boards and left the house to become the 'Rosie the Riveter' and went to work for the WAR EFFORT and kept those war machines rolling off the assembly lines while their men folk were getting blown up across the pond - some to never return home/or to return home never able to work again! And you place the blame on birth control Seriously - you were just pulling my leg, RIGHT! Funny Man, that was sooooo cute!

BTW - please tell me what/where you've attended a rally where anyone was shouting 'KILL THE MEN' {in this country - USA}...not that I'd call you a LIAR but it just servers no purpose to exaggerate such things when it's not necessary and only makes the statement seem ludicrous and questionable



Odd how you post that there's been a 'PUSH' when in fact it's been a request and a drive; Yes, as a CEO is leaving and a 'HELP WANTED AD' was submitted to the local paper/head hunter agency --- lots of qualified humans submit their resumes and ALL OF THOSE QUALIFIED SHOULD BE LOOKED AT EQUALLY --- that wasn't happening! And as for you list of >>>
We have been doing the jobs for well over 40+ years; where have you been...sadly the miners union won't bend and for those wives that have lost their husbands/brothers {supporting head of households} in mining accidents and have wanted to go take their place to keep their families off of welfare and state assistance the women have been turned away! Because they are 'WOMEN' - TY so very much for having an understanding heart! You must ASSume that when a spouse dies that the women just magically carry on without suffering some financial set back without picking up the work loads that her husband was doing for the family! Rather a narrow point of view about the WORLD as a whole isn't it



There is some truth in what you say {bold font}, I've known some very unhappy co-workers that worked diligently for their wife/family and seemed to get little to no comfort/respect or attention...but who's fault is that that they stayed and suffered without making some SERIOUS changes within that family structure! Good Grief it takes both adults to make OR BREAK a good marriage - IMHO

Men would do the financial providing you know why? Because women don't get paid for our work...and apparently no appreciation either.

the woman should show her husband respect and loyalty especially if he's breaking his back getting those bills paid. she should look after him and the children because he is looking after them. i mean who else is going to look after him if the wife doesn't. that's equal

Oj... I'm going to have to go at this with a weed whacker to make it more readable...



Yes... thanks... you like it?



Ok... I'll take your word for it. Honestly, England never fascinated me. I was always more Eurocentric and never really cared for what happened on the isles.

But thank you for proving my point. The "patriarchy" was always designed to give woman an advantage. With feminism, it will make the playing field more equal between men and women.



Exactly... Thank you! Like I said, many men died through their blood sweat and tears building a civilization that we thought women wanted. This has to stop. It's time for women to build their own civilization the way they want to build it.

AS for the pill... I think you don't understand the impact that had on women and how it freed them from the 'patriarchy'.

I also did not tie the WW2 with the pill - you did.



My appologies if I made it seem like ALL women at the "Slut walk" here in Toronto sided with the woman who shouted this during the walk. In general, most ignored her... but in all honesty, I didn't see any woman stand up for men and castigate her either. So I just don't know.



Actually - the European Unoion has decreed that they want 40% of the CEOs in all European corporation to be women in the next 7 years. By normal attrition standards, it would take 30 or more years to do that. So please spare me the retirement/hiring BS.

And even if it was... what makes you think that a woman would be more qualified than a man? If we're equal, shouldn't all positions that come up be 50/50. In which case it would take 60 years for women to make up half of all CEOs.



Well... now you should be happy, since I am also pushing that women be miners too. And no... just because there were a couple of women miners over the last 50 years, that doesn't mean you were doing the same jobs.

I don't understand what your beef is? Here I am pushing for equality with men and you're complaining?

I also find it funny how I should feel sorry for the women who's husbands die, but it really doesn't matter that those men died providing for their families.

Talk about a narrow view point. But like most femimists... I guess you have always seen the male as the more expendable sex. I'm just trying to say that both sexes are EQUALLY important, and should be valued equally.



So... let me get this straight. First feminism is about taking power and control from the man and sharing it equally with the woman. But now it's the man's fault for staying with the family and being miserable even though he has no power to change things?

Thank you again for making the point I have been trying to make - the family structure (as it exists today) is a no win situation for the man... and the end result will be that there will be fewer families in the future! Especially as "Men Go There Own Way" or MGTOW for short.

Brilliant!

Cheers!

I also wanted to add this to the pile...

Something which most women will one day need to understand - is that there really is no such thing as a pay gap between men and women today.

I know this might upset some feminists... but hear me out.

Does it make sense for any business to hire a more expensive employee?

For example - suppose I am a florist and need to hire someone that arranges flowers. If I knew that by hiring a woman, I could save 15% or more, rather than hiring a man... would it make sense to ever hire a man? How much of an idiot would I have to be in order to pay someone more for doing the same job?

Now... apply that reasoning to a big corporation like a bank. Do you really think that any hiring manager out there would hire someone just to pay them more? As a stock owner, I would be raking the CEO over the coals if they did that.

So... if hiring women is cheaper than hiring men... why don't women have all the jobs? Why don't more companies hire women?

Obviously... it isn't just about costs is it? Usually the difference comes down to a woman's choices doesn't it.

Let's go back to the florist example. Suppose I was willing to pay $15/hr. That's all I could afford with Obamacare on top. Let's also assume that both the man and the woman applying to the job are the same age. Now, after interviewing them, I find out that the man has been doing flower arrangements for 5 years, while the woman has been doing them for 3. I discovered that she took a couple of years off to raise her child. So who should I hire? By all accounts, the man has more experience, and it would be stupid of me to not hire the man.

Now I understand that most women would say... "But you shouldn't punish a woman because she had to raise her child."

But my answer is... "Why not?"

Suppose that it was the reverse - that the man had only 3 years experience (because his wife died and he had to spend some time taking care of his newborn child) but the woman was single and had 5 years of experience? Should I take pity on the man and give him the job? Of course not - I have a business to run, and i'm not here to make YOUR life easier. Since I'm paying you, you should be making MY life easier.

So as you see... if you choose to stay in grad school, travel the world, have kids, heck... study math instead of psychology. All of these choices had an impact on your carreer, as well as your salary. For men however, it was always a given that they would be the ones who would go out and work while women would stay home and raise the kids (and cook and clean and do all those hellish jobs that women hate). But now... with feminism... that's all gone! Now women have the equal right to suffer and work in a crappy 9 to 5 job like men do, and abandon their dreams of having a family!

Welcome to the revolution girls!

No one can counter my above statement. I win!

This statement? I will counter it. When I was married I stayed at home and took care of the house and son. My husband always appreciated it. I chose to stay home. Yes he made the money but we had equal (but different) roles. Both were just as important. We had a joint bank account and discussed purchases outside of bills.

Later I went to work and made my own money

After the divorce I was able to take care of my household and earn a paycheck. He was able to take care of his household and earn money

This is an example of what I referred to. Being a stay at home mom deserves the husband's paycheck?

Btw I believe I have said the same thing before several times

Thank you for the kind words of support to my article. I think that in any relationship both the man and the woman need to respect and value each other. In fact there has been a recent study where as soon as one partner has contempt for the other... eventually the relationship ends in a divorce.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid in this world men have become seen as a burden and a hinderance for women. Anyone who looks at the feminist's posts will see that if they look honestly. Unfortunately, most men see this too, which is why MGTOW is gaining momentum. MGTOW is not about going back to the table to discuss things with feminists - it's about walking away and NEVER coming back to the table at all. It's about men living their lives for themselves like feminists have done.

Ultimately... if feminists want to run the civilization... they will. They'll just have to do it without men.