Adj wrote:
“is not the temptation in and of its self an evil thing”

The idea that it’s sinful to enjoy physical reality is the most absurd notion that mankind ever invented.

There is nothing inherently evil about temptation. It all depends on what it is the person is being tempted to do.

We could argue semantics here, but that would be no differnet than arguing religion. Everyone has their own take on it. I personally do not see anything inherently evil about temptation. It all depends on what it is the person is being tempted to do. If you are being tempted to do good things how can that be evil?

Adj;

I agree with Abra. Temptation is not evil. Actions are evil. Which follows through to your logic on God creating Satan. It is the actions of Satan that are evil - not the creation itself. Most of the posts on this thread that attribute God as creating something evil - are attributing the actions of His creations as His responsibility, and using that premise to claim that God cannot therefore - exist. Bad proof.
To take Abra's point one step further - qualifying what a person is tempted to do can only be assessed as evil when "giving into the temptation" leads to an action - or in some cases - a lack of action. It's in the "doing" that something becomes evil - not in the mere idea of it.

I have seen Hell with my own eyes, I was at work when it happend
I have never done drugs and I was not drunk nor did I have anything.
I was standing handling merch coming down the line on the convayer belt when I looked over and saw 2 demons standing gaurding the radio, I could tell what they were because I saw the darkness that was in and around them, they were in human form arms crossed looking at me.
I took the merch off the belt and put it in its place and when I looked again they were gone.
I worked for a little bit and Boom! I was hovering over HELL, I could not feel the heat but I could see the effects of it around me, it was dark; not like here, it was a completely different absence of light, I could see everything around me and although there were men and women next to each other they could not see anyone around them; they would scream in aggony so high pitched it hurt your ears and it would send the spirits into more screaming in pain from the sound.
Each person had demons surrounding them telling them every thing they had ever done wrong and would take turns in hurting the person in one way or another.
I saw every person's skin melt like wax on a candle and when they were bone they would regenerate every piece of they're tissue again and it would start over again with melting down.
After seening this I was transported back into my body and seeing that had left me weak.
It was like all my energy had left my body, I almost fell over and I broke down crying, it was only a few seconds I had been away but it had felt like I had been there for far longer.
I can't handle it when people tell me that it's going to be some party, makes me want to cry now knowing that people perposely want to go there.

heaven and hell are what you make them.

adj4u,

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if heaven was perfect

then the pride would not have come before the fall
==============================================================

This is an illogical statement. If heaven is perfect, it means that everything and everyone has it's place. If one being (Satan) was jealous of another's position (man), then that being (Satan) would be temped by his own jealousy and pride. If you read the Bible, you will find that the angels cannot look at God, but God's plan is for us humans to be able to look at Him. Angels are described as using their wings to shield their faces, so that they don't see God. The best theory I have heard for the rebellion is that Satan was jealous that man and not him would see God's face and man was going to be raised above the angels, so Satan tried to destroy mankind by introducing sin.

Perfect doesn't mean that you get everything YOU want, it means that God gives you everything that He knows you need and is good for you.

==============================================================

anoasis,

Look up a little, you will see that I was replying to adj4u.

Josh,

Why do you think you were selected to be given this glimpse of hell? Any clue?

I mean, it’s obviously not something that many people report having seen so I’m just wondering why you think you might have been singled out to be given a preview of hell? And why not a preview of heaven?

Do you think it was some kind of warning that you were headed in that direction and that you should take steps to avoid that fate?

I mean, it doesn’t make much sense that a person would be given a glimpse of hell if they aren’t even close to being headed in that direction wouldn’t you think?

Do you believe that God would allow his children to be tortured in extreme pain and agony for all of eternity for merely having been less than perfect? Surely the people in hell would DESERVE to be there. Surely God wouldn’t allow decent people to suffer such a gruesome eternal fate simply because they weren’t saints. Especially if he is all-powerful and could easily put a stop to it.

I mean, even you or I would put a stop to it if we could, yet we can't possibly be the compassionate superior of God.

I’m just curious what your thoughts are on these things.

This is both Heavan and hell, this existance...this place of profound suffering, and also great joy.

This is it folks, line forms to the left, no jostling and have your tickets ready at the door.

You get the cotton candy and the ghost train all rolled into one.

When I leave this frame, this body, I just wanna go Home.

Great tune, great album!

Where's the headbanger emoticon?

Home is where I hang my soul
Hell is when I lose control
The universe is but a whole
Jess and Kid are on a roll

Some are out to take a stroll
other’s feel they must cajole
nuts are in the chocolate bowl
must heaven be our goal?

Abra, I was shown it so that I can be a witness and a testiment to people, I believe that I will go to heaven.
God sends noone to hell, it was they're choice to follow satan so they followed him there, mankind sends themselves to Hell.
By not following God you follow satan, even if you consitter yourself a "good person" Faith without works is dead and works without faith are useless.
God greves for those who were "Good people".
If you go to a nightclub and it is hard to get in, you say to the bouncer "Let me in I know the owner"
The bouncer replys "How do you know him?"
You say "I heard about him, and even talked to him one time"
bouncer asks you "Did you spend alot of time with him?"
you say what?

Just because you know about the owner or heard about him doesn't make for much grounds to get in but what if this happend?

The owner greets you at the gate and says "Hey it's my close friend {insert name here}.

how much time do you spend in prayer, read & study the Bible, how much effert have you really spent trying to get to know God because it's the relationship with him, he knows your heart and what you did or didn't do.
If you are in the lambs book of life then your past transgressions will be pardoned and you'll have no worry's if your a little scruffed, but the people in hell are those who have rejected God by not believing in him, thinking they don't need him, and thinking they could be "Good enough".
If you truly are a child of God then you won't be in hell will you and you would have had a relationship with him.
No person is innocent, we all have an inate sence that God is there, it is up to you weather you want to accept him in your life or not.

Josh,
“how much time do you spend in prayer, read & study the Bible”

The Bible has nothing to do with god.

We have plenty of fire and brimstone preachers here though, so you’ll be in good company.

Heaven has always been there....Hell didn't come into play until satan thought he was better then God and God banished him there for 2000 years.

Josh I heart you....very well said....

Abra I love you too.......giggle.

Abra, I'm not preaching fire and brimstone because if I was I would be much more forceful on this matter.
I am just saying my belief on hell, I told you I had seen Hell for myself and Just what the bible co-ordnates about the subject, I was just answering your question you asked me before what my thoughts were on the matter.

I don't what your talking .E.arth ...

It may not matter to you, and you may not believe it but it is the basic foundation for christianity.even though you aren't a christian I am telling you that it is what we {christians} believe.

Josh wrote:
“It may not matter to you, and you may not believe it but it is the basic foundation for christianity.even though you aren't a christian I am telling you that it is what we {christians} believe.”

As far as I know the only foundation for Christianity is a single book called the Holy Bible. Which anyone can read.

Also, all Christians definitely do not believe the same things. There are Christians who don’t even believe in hell. Christianity has many sects and even people within congregations of the same churches seldom agree on everything. So there are many differnet ways to believe in Christianity. Just saying that you are a Christian and believe as Christianity doesn’t really convey much information these days. There are just too many differnet sects, plus a myriad of “Designer Christians” who hold steadfast to the claim that they are Christians, yet they refuse to become affiliated with any particular church.

This is, of course, quite acceptable because the only foundation for Christianity is the Bible. Anyone who obtains a Bible and reads it can legitimately claim that their interpretation represents Christianity because the Bible is the only real basis for the religion.

In old English Hell is where you would plant your potatoes.. Hell is a foriegn concept to the Holy Bible. Complete destruction is the punishment of the wicked not everlasting torture. Death is death non exxistance. Dante's play brought around the concept of eternal damnation. The churches picked it up like Martin Luther to scare converts into repentance or should I say obedience to the hieacharchy. Power has always been a problem with men... Blessings.. Miles

I thought heaven was going to be Earth after all the evil people and non believers were sent to the void...

Jax wrote:
“I thought heaven was going to be Earth after all the evil people and non believers were sent to the void...”

Just reading that sounds really strange to me. Why would being a ‘believer’ be so important to God?

I mean it’s not even a belief in God that is claimed to be of importance, but rather a belief in the Bible which is something entirely different from believing in God.

Why would God demand that everyone believe in a specific piece of folklore over any other. Just how are they supposed to KNOW that it’s actually from God? I mean, when I look at the book I’m totally convinced that it can’t possibly be from the creator of this universe.

So I’m rejecting a BOOK, not God. And if God is so wise and omnipresent and knows everyone’s thoughts then he would KNOW that I’m not rejecting him, but rather I’m rejecting a book that I simply don’t believe has anything to do with him.

This is where I have a serious problem with the religion. When the religious people say, “Oh no! You have to believe in the BIBLE, nothing else will do!”. Well to me that just indicates that it is INDEED all just a big hoax. The focus is on the religion, NOT on God.

If the book were genuinely written by God he would have made it clear that reverence for him is all that’s important and that believing in any particular book simply isn’t important.

In fact, if God wanted to send a message to man, why do it though a restricted geographical region and just a handful of closely related people? Why not inspire writings all over the globe by all men. Then we’d see a whole lot of differnet books that were simultaneously written all over the world in a time when that kind of communication wouldn’t have been possible. Then we’d KNOW that the message was from God!

Instead we have a bunch of yo-yo’s in the Middle East writing self-centered stories about their own lineage and nations. Smells like folklore to me!!!

But I guess I’ll be rejected by God then because I didn’t buy into the correct comic book.

What the hell kind of a way is that to play a game?

It’s a stupid game if you ask me.

Miles wrote:
“Hell is a foriegn concept to the Holy Bible. Complete destruction is the punishment of the wicked not everlasting torture. Death is death non exxistance”

Now that I can handle! I’m not wicked, but if I lose the game because I read the wrong comic books then I’m glad to know that I’ll just die when I die. I have no problem with that. Hanging around for eternity groveling for forgiveness all the time and having to constantly worship and praise a deity doesn’t sound like a bunch of fun anyway. Just passing out into oblivion actually sounds much more inviting in comparison.

After all, in theory I was non-existent before I was born, so going back to being non-existent after I dies seems like a pretty fair deal.

Hell is bumper to bumper traffic and still 10 miles from the airport....

Heaven is waking up each day and being grateful for what I have...
Say my prayers, read the BIBLE, eat a good breakfast....that is heaven for me...

lj

i think the idea here would be that God created a creature to have his own free will. The Devil was in fact created by God and chose to disregard the provisions of God, and riches of heaven because he wanted to hold more authority than his maker. Would you want to control or manipulate creatures you made? Would you tell your children "you HAVE to love me"??? No you'd rather them love you because you love them. Think of the thousands of years people have had to simply believe not in the Bible, but what the Bible talks about and who it represents....yet its said that its not fair that some people have to go to Hell....you live an avg of 70 yrs on this planet and still think its unfair, how long is fair then?. A sacrifice was made to save everyone from judgement of their sins. If a wrong is committed (and we all do wrong) there must be restitution, or consequences are the result. Someone laid down their life to make restitution for sins you could not make restitution for yourself. Those that don't accept the provision of sins forgiven by the death and resurrection of Jesus will sadly one day end up in Hell.