Telling a black child not to "act white" is way of promoting hatred of white people.

Was that me? Did I say that a few years ago or something?

I agree with most of what you say, especially the part about 'defining racism so that only whites can be racist' (at least, that's been my experience of the thing you describe).


Here's one small place I disagree with the definitions are complete. See, I emphatically agree that:



But I don't see how this meets the definition. I don't have to hate people to have some arbitrary race based policy, nor do I need to believe in inherent differences. I might have a race based policy on a lark. Or as an evil sociological experiment. But having a race based policy is STILL racism in my eyes, even if its not based on hatred or a belief in inherent differences.

I should probably just go find a reputable, unabridged dictionary that includes my concept of racism.

One thing that never ceases to amuse and disgust me all at the same time,
is the constant quest to blame others for personal and professional failures,
and the lack of owning one's own life.
This isn't limited to a single race.

As it should. It presumes that all the *good* traits (speaking clearly, being educated, acting responsibly, etc.) are unique to white people.

Can you rephrase that? I don't understand what you mean by that.

* * * * *

Anyway, "acting white" in the USA is another way of saying "adopting the standards used by the majority culture in order to be successful while living among that culture.

It is akin to a native of a non-English-speaking nation learning to speak English upon moving to an English-speaking nation. Telling that native not to learn English is detrimental to that native.

Telling a young black person not to "act white" is another way of telling the person to segregate one's self from white people because of a belief that there is something wrong with people if they are white.

I'm not sure which part threw you.

"Acting white" covers the gamut of all the *good* traits, leaving all the other-hued and other-"raced" folks to divvy up the *bad* traits amongst themselves.

"Lazy Mexican." "Baby Daddy." "Stingy Jew." "Poorly-driving Asian."


We made sure we took all the *good* stereotypes for ourselves.

It's (another) fundamental part of institutionalized racism. Institutionalized "isms" are integral to our system; it's why we say "my doctor" if he's a male, but feel compelled to say, "a female attorney" or "the black senator".

We? What "we"? You maybe.

Anyway, those alleged "white traits" are the traits best suited for living among the majority culture of the USA. That is why they are "cultural majority" traits, not "white traits".

If I were living in Japan, then I would do well to learn the Japanese language and to adapt to the Japanese culture. It would be foolish for someone to tell me not to do so.

The old TV show The Beverly Hillbillies was all about a rural American family not fitting in with the majority culture of Beverly Hills, and everyone on that show was white.

Now, I agree that there are examples of black Americans being compelled to make cultural adaptations that are absolutely unnecessary.

Nahhhh. You give me waaaay too much credit. I don't write ALL the news stories, magazine articles, and/or screenplays for movies...yanno, the contributors TO "a culture".



Thank you for proving the point being made, to yourself and for yourself, using your own words.

Why are "white traits" the ones "best suited" for living in the majority culture? Since whites are at 63% of the population today and set to become the non-majority *race* in 2050, will the U.S. abandon those *good* traits (getting an education, speaking well, acting responsibly, etc.) once the 'Browning of America' has been accomplished? Will all whites suddenly lose their ability to drive, begin speaking only in Ebonics, and all quit work and become "lazy" on the same day?

For the third time, "acting white" takes all the *good* traits of a nationality and reserves them exclusively for one segment of the population, based strictly on skin color, regardless of that person's birth origin.




No, you wouldn't. You'd pick and choose, just like ALL cultures do. You'd probably send your children to American schools, as most Americans in Japan do. I doubt that you'd straighten and dye your hair black, simply to blend. You wouldn't have eye surgery to remove the folds in your eyes, simply to fit in. And, I seriously doubt that you'd become a Buddhist.



"EVERYone" on TV in the 50s and 60s was white; what's your point? And, they (purposely?) did NOT adopt to the culture around them; they were *allowed* to be as they chose, simply in deference TO their money. Had they not had a dime and tried to live in Beverly Hills, they would have been escorted out of the city.


Oh. Look at that.

Uh, it appears that you missed the part of my last post that says "Now, I agree that there are examples of black Americans being compelled to make cultural adaptations that are absolutely unnecessary."

Again, we are talking about cultural issues, not racial issues.

Specifically, we are talking about the majority culture in the USA, which isn't "white" but rather, it is a blend of elements from a variety of cultures.

For example, the majority language comes from England, and the genre of music called "Rock and Roll" (if I am not mistaken) comes from the African-American culture.

By the way, I didn't label so-called "white traits" as "good traits".

I am merely being pragmatic about majority cultures. You do well to adopt traits of the majority culture that will help you to be successful while living within that culture.

Not all traits of the majority culture need to be adopted in order to obtain success.

By the way, I still want to know just what traits are alleged to be specific "white" traits.


Anyway, mrld_ii, I am glad that you and I can have a polite discussion even if we have disagreements.

@ dodo:

YOU didn't have to label "white" traits as "good" traits; it's a given. Did you for one minute believe that "acting white" meant living in ghettos, being unable to finish school, joining gangs and/or contributing to sky-high teenage pregnancy rates?


I am not understanding this "white culture" of which you speak; whites have a culture?

Whites in the U.S. are from Poland (with its culture), France (with its culture), Italy (with its culture), Spain (with its culture), Germany (with its culture), England (with its culture), Norway (with its culture), etc. We are - and always have been - a mixed pedigree. Why do we exclude blacks from being part of this mixed-pedigree when we tell them they're "acting white"?


This "rock-and-roll", which you've determined belongs to the 'white culture', got its roots from southern blacks' music, and included elements of jazz. Many radio stations refused to play Elvis Presley's music because it was "too black"...not to mention that swiveling of his hips which was decidedly "Negroid" in nature. A whole separate rock-and-roll industry was born in Detroit, simply to address AN arm of rock-and-roll that mainstream music wouldn't embrace.


Why are you asking ME what traits are "alleged to be specific 'white' traits"...I'm not the one who thinks it's O.K. to tell others - especially blacks - to "stop acting white".

I'm pretty sure most blacks who've been born here in the U.S. speak English; it is odd that you would use language as an example of 'white' culture and suggest that anyone who wants to live here in the U.S. should speak it. The English that whites speak in the south differs greatly from the English spoken in Boston which differs greatly from the English spoken in the Midwest...yet, for some odd reason, the English that blacks speak isn't considered "proper".



You were one of the ones defending the term "acting white" (and suggesting that it is actually indicative of a hatred of whites and anti-white sentiment TO say it); within the structure of this thread, "acting white" encompasses being educated, speaking clearly, and being a responsible citizen.

Apparently, according to the premise of this thread, these are things that do not come naturally to non-whites, so anyone who is non-white must "act" these things, in order to have any hope to achieve them.



Please note, that in this polite discussion we are having, I have answered pretty much every single one of the questions and addressed each of the issues you've posed to me, but you've pretty much avoided all of the questions and issues I've asked of/posed to you.

The one I'd REALLY like you to address is, what will happen to this "majority culture" (which is currently dictated by whites, as we're the majority) when, as Pew Research has indicated, whites become the non-majority 'culture' in the U.S.? Will whites suddenly be unable to be educated, unable to speak clearly, or drive safely?

Yanno, since the 'Brown' skinned people will then be the majority. Will all the whites quit their jobs, become lazy, go on welfare, and start popping out crack babies...to adopt to the "majority culture"? Will we all become Catholics? Or, Southern Baptists? Once the "majority culture" is brown, will whites scream that it's a waste of money to print ballots in English and insist that they only be printed in Spanish? (The Spanish that Mexicans speak, that is.) Will Cinco de Mayo become a national holiday? Juneteenth? Will EVERYbody get Martin Luther King's birthday off and only SOME will get off for Presidents' Day?

How will the United States change once whites are no longer 'in charge'? How will the United States change once a new "majority culture" is in town?

Yanno...since according to you, it's perfectly acceptable - and to be expected - that the "majority culture" gets to dictate what's *right*.

I reserve the word 'hate' for serious issues.

sometimes people confuse superior/inferior with different

for instance I love dogs, but my experience leads me to a genuine belief that certain behaviors are more common to dogs and more appropriate for dogs than they are humans


so if I tell a child not to act like a dog,, HATE Is not part of the equation,, nor is inferiority or superiority,, just pure 'difference'


similarly,, if I tell an adult not to act like a child,, its not due to hatred of children and its not about adults being SUPERIOR or INRERIOR,, just my own expectation from experience that they do and should behave DIFFERENTLY


and if children tease girls about acting like boys,, its not because they HATE boys or find one superior or inferior, but because they have observed differences (different doesn't have to be INFERIOR or SUPERIOR)


if I say a male walks like a female, its certainly not an indication that I think one is superior or inferior in their walk or due to my HATRED for either,, simply an observation of something I believe to be a difference


I could go on and on with ways that people can perceive 'different' without it involving hatred or a sense of superiority or inferiority,,,,


intent and context are very important when dissecting 'racist' situations,,,

let me lay it on the line as simply as possible

in AMERICA, due to the HISTORY of America concerning race

and due to this being a capitalist society where money rules

there is a socioeconomic STATUS shared more often by blacks than by others that is at the bottom of the caste (socioeconomic and political),,and so,,,in certain types of environments,, like urban areas and ghettos, we are more likely to see BLACK people (not exclusively, but mostly) and so the culture we see come from urban areas and ghettos becomes accepted as a 'black' culture

there is a socioeconomic STATUS shared more often by whites than others that is the top of the caste (socioeconomic and political) and so in certain enviornments, like suburbs and rural,,, you are more likely to see WHITE people(not exclusively but mostly) and so those cultures become accepted as 'white' culture


now,, imagine, someone growing up in America and speaking as if they were from England , using the vernacular, and the slang, ,,,I imagine without having any hatred for England, or feeling superior or inferior,, people may say ,, 'why are you speaking like you are English, or acting like you are English,,,,'etc


it is the same here, we associate certain 'cultures' with a race based upon the socioeconomic and political history and the media,, so when we see a 'vanilla ice' for instance dancing and hip hopping as if he is familiar with urban life,, and then find that he is from a posh upper class area,, he gets chastised for 'acting black'

,,because its not GENUINE ,,,,

however, there can be someone else , like say jon b, who grew up in a minority environment exposed to music by minorities ,,,performing r and b and speaking urban,,, people will also accuse him of 'acting black',,,,,when he is only acting 'urban',,,which is genuine to what is expected since that is his roots,,,

there are people who 'act' the part,, and there are people who just are who they are,,,and plenty of people grown and child alike, leap to these judgements before knowing the context or the history of the person they are judging,,,


THAT would be wrong,, jumping to the conclusion of someone being disingenuous

however, rightfully assessing someone being disingenuous , would not be wrong

,,,,,there is a time and place for everything,, people are very ADAPTABLE,, blacks have had to be VERY ADAPTABLE,,,so its not necessary to behave in one way in all situations all the time,,, we can be posh if we need to be and we can just chill if we are in casual company,,,,,


I disagree with there being one way to 'act black' or 'act white',, however I also disagree that those distinctions are always about a sense of superiority or hatred,,,

Very well said

This pretty much sums it up for me :
",,,,,there is a time and place for everything,, people are very ADAPTABLE,, blacks have had to be VERY ADAPTABLE,,,so its not necessary to behave in one way in all situations all the time,,, we can be posh if we need to be and we can just chill if we are in casual company,,,,,"

Uh, the USA will probably look more like the kind of culture that I experienced during my first two decades of living on planet Earth.

Back in high school, striving for academic excellence was a part of the school's majority culture, as well as using proper English grammar, being productive, etc.

The high school that I graduated from originated as my home town's only all-black high school, and the majority of my graduating class was black.

My black classmates fitted into the majority American culture without losing their ethnic identity. The same was true for the Hispanic immigrants and the Asian immigrants who attended my school.

Nobody talked about "acting white" because what people nowadays call "acting white" my racially-mixed classmates called "acting Human".

(Yeah, as a Melmacian, I had to learn to "act Human". My school's cafeteria didn't serve "cat", but I survived.)

@ dodo:


Oh. So, based on your own empirical data, you dismiss this thread's premise that when blacks succeed in school and/or succeed in life, they are simply "acting white".

You should have made that clearer, earlier, instead of choosing to take issue with a phrase you believe I invented and/or introduced to the thread, which was - in fact - there from the opening post.


Thank you for finally addressing one of the many issues/questions I'd raised in my replies to you, by responding to the one which I'd indicated I was the most curious about.

Maybe time to start acting Human!

Who? Whites?

Or, the hued people?

Here is what the OP says:



The premise of this thread is that black students who pursue academic excellence are accused of "acting white".

I read about this phenomenon back during the late 80s when it was being reported by California newspapers.

If black students are being discouraged from pursuing academic excellence, then who is the "bad guy", the party doing the discouraging or the party reporting that the discouraging is taking place?

Who exactly is accusing black students of "acting white"?
Who has declared that it is wrong for black students to pursue academic excellence because many white students also pursue it?

White students pursue academic excellence because it is a good thing to do, not because it is the white thing to do. The same is true for black students who pursue academic excellence.

So, please explain why it is permissible to discourage black students from pursuing academic excellence.

Also, who came up with the idea to label the majority American culture a "white culture"? Who injected race into a topic that isn't racial? Who is so fixated on race? Who is trying to use "race" to divide people?

Inquiring minds want to know.

everyone!

WHAT Capitalist Society did you have in mind?