subjectively this sentence

'Blaming the issue on society is like telling someone on a rainy day not to use an umbrella, but to support efforts to eliminate weather'



pushed it beyond a discussion about theory on race dynamics and more into a thread implying blame and degree of blame,,,,

I think you are saying: If students didn't know how well the other students were doing, there would be no way for the kids who think 'failure is cool' to even know who they need to tease into non-performance?

Before going further I want to emphasize that I don't consider this just a 'black problem', there are a lot of white kids who think failure is cool, and who pressure other kids not to do well. Its just more complicated for black kids because their identity as *black* kids can get pulled into the mix.

If I understood you right, above: well I think the problem goes beyond actual grades. It's also about paying attention in class, respecting the teacher, or even *doing* the assignments. The 'cool' non-performers will harass students who do any of the behaviours that might lead to success.

Edit: In some environments, smart hard working success oriented black kids have a lot of trouble getting social acceptance anywhere in their school. Many white kids won't have them because they are black, and many black kids won't have them because they are 'nerds'.

finding the right social 'click' during the school years is hardly easy for anyone,,,

Are these kind of discussions helping anyone ? What does it contribute to ?
They are just fueling the prejudices against people. People should build up a
society together. Forget the extremists in society. They are irrelevant.
"Never discus things with an idiot.. They will only pull you to their level and
then beat you on experience. If you tell any part of society. That the majority
is incapable then off course they will get upset. But it is not helping anyone.
Extremism breeds extremism. People can be terrible. But it does not go for all
people. I was lucky that i was raised in a public school in a multi cultural
society. For me playing with my foreign friends was common. I never knew what
racism was until someone told me. I was.. and still am under the impression that
all people are equal in a society that treats them equal. Unfortunately most
countries are not like that. For example.. I talked to a guy from Israel. And this
person is really nice and polite to everyone. But when we spoke then he says that
all Arabs are desperately to kill him and his country. And that they are "just" like
that by nature. He did not believe the fact that in Morocco there are arabs and
jews living together for centuries. And there was never problems between them.

Extreme people are everywhere. We had a black woman in our country that started
to attack Muslim people verbally. By saying they do horrible things to everyone.
This woman just needed attention and people that sponsored her. She got what she wanted..
People with hate against Islam started to quote her. They promoted her book that
polarized Muslims. And then she ran to the USA with a big smile to go work for a
conservative think tank. From this moment more people joined the bandwagon.
Making paintings and statues that insult Muslims. Because they knew that this kind of
controversy would net them publicity and money.
Now.. before you start telling me that Muslims do the same about our culture then i
already agree with you. So..don't bother. My point is that some people just want to
keep stigmatizing people that are different from them. For a variety of reasons.
It is not helping anyone.. Communicate with each other. People are basically the same..
They want food, shelter, love, respect, safety. All people are like so.

I know that it must be hard to break away from those ideas. And i understand it too.
That when people get attacked by a black person for visiting his "area" Or when someone
tells you that you are not welcome because you are black. I just wished for those
people to see the better side. And that life can be so much more then labelling
people and putting them in imaginary boxes.

Not hardly..

I posted the article with NO comments.

You were the one that guided the thread into that direction by trying to nullify McWhorter's defense of the college student that posted the video.

What you did is exactly what others were doing to the girl and that is what prompted McWhorter to write the article.

I quoted what lead the tone, from the OP

call it a 'comment' or not

I didn't GUIDE anything, only responded to what was posted,,,and pointed out the flaws in logic

it was nothing like what others were doing in telling someone they are acting white,,,wth?

Why does everything have to be racial? Why can't it just be people acting as they will?

What? We're not supposed to have freedom of expression in this country anymore without having someone labeling our actions as black or white?

So much for freedom!

Guess we can thank leadership and the media for those little gems as well

A nation divided against itself brings dissension and promotes poverty, the need for a police state, mistrust, and all the glorious little control mechanisms that go with it

Common core for the masses.... starting with our kids and the education system!

OBEY!

media has spotlighted divisions and labels that were already there
concerning race

why do we expect men to not wear dresses? culture and exposure to images that nearly exclusively have women in dresses.

that is how the mind works , sometimes its no big deal, and sometimes its detrimental


if we lived in a place where men wore kilts,, it wouldn't seem nearly the big deal as it would be to see a man wear one here,,,,its not expected of a male because of our cultural 'norms' and lack of exposure to men in kilts

here, we have a lack of exposure to certain people doing certain things so we learn not to associate those things with them,,,so that when we see someone doing one of those things we feel they are acting 'like' whatever group we expect that behavior from


..I agree, that when it comes to how people 'act',,its something worth unlearning


I did it in regards to dancing and singing,, I just honestly wasn't exposed to white folks who could do much of either very well,, so I was always surprised in my adult life when folks like Justin timberlake popped up

I have unlearned that particular correlation though, and it no longer surprises or impresses me any more than anyone else singing or dancing,,

It's amazing that Hokeywood can make movies like Hunger Games, The Winter Soldier, and Divergent while the actors campaign/vote for the very policies that create such a state.

The hypocrisy is amazing!

that's called entertainment

its understood , generally, that people are playing a (usually fictional character) and a situation that occurs in real life

without requiring them to be like the character in their own life or agree with what the character does

I'm sure this wasn't your intention, but the first few lines sounds a little to me like you want people to stop exchanging ideas, views, experiences.

These kinds of discussions may fuel some prejudices, even while they also help people to understand other's points of view, or to understand actual existing problems in the world.

Your own comment on the guy from Israel and Arabs has all of these potentials wrapped up in it as well.

On the one hand, it could function for some people to just fuel their irrational negativity towards Jewish people in general, or towards Israeli in general.

On the other hand, it also highlights an actual existing problem with a significant subset of zionist culture: that of extreme racism among zionists. The problem is real and we should acknowledge it and talk about solving it.

And on the third hand, your comment also has a message of hope and suggests solutions may exist when you discuss Morocco and the way Jews and Arabs live in harmony.

I don't like how so many people want to use one little piece of truth as a means to deny other pieces of truth - this goes for both sides of the "What is the cause of the problems for black people in the US - black culture or white racism?" false dilemma groups. But it is emphatically in the interest of low income black people in general, and of everyone in our society, to be honest about how the ways that various subcultural values impact the people in those subcultures. (As well as being honest about the realities of anti-black racism).

No! Off course i do not want people to stop having discussions and share views. I just do not see the value into having this type of discussion.

Society is full of tools to label people. And sometimes they are recognized and
even invented for the purpose of labeling and controlling a population.

A good example that i find is the IQ test. It is been designed to "measure" people's
inteligence. And it has been expressed in a cold number. The problem however is that
your boss might value you for that number of iq that you "possess" And not your whole
spectrum of capabilities. So for example your boss might blame you for something that
you cannot perform. Saying that since you have this level of IQ. Then the task should
be of no problem to you. Or as opposite.. your boss might not give you the chance to
evolve in a process. Because the number of your Iq might not be sufficient enough for him
to take that risk. Eventhough you are more then capable to do so.

Or women.. Men would say women are weak. Did you as a man ever try to give birth to a baby
then ? Any idea how hard that is ?

Well there is tuns of contradictions in life. But in my view it is best not to name them
and then question a group about it. Because people will be offended and it is not of any good use.
Therefore i take a stand in these kind of discussions. By saying that they are not helping
anyone by simply giving up on a particular group of people. Or stigmatizing them.

No no no Anthony Hopkins really is a cannibal.

What is the type of this discussion? What is exactly about this discussion that makes it one of these types? At what point did you recognize that this discussion is one of these no-value types - was it the OP, or some other comment, or some exchange between two people?




True.




Umm.... sorry, I'm taking this off topic a bit, and it doesn't detract from your actual point, but most employers (outside of high level R&D situations, engineering, etc) do NOT want someone with an exceptionally high IQ. High IQ people are harder to manage, and are often either lazy and/or 'feel entitled', or they are ambitious in ways that are hard to harness and can be destructive to the company goals.

Most employers would much, much rather have an average IQ person who is willing to work hard. If they want smarter employees, then they want people who are willing to learn and to train.

But your point was really that people often make assumptions about people based on labels, rather than looking at who they really are, and so I think your point still stands.

I just did it. I made general statements about people with exceptionally high IQs - though we know these generalizations don't apple to everyone.




I have mixed feelings about this wrt racism in the US. If we ignore it completely, we are missing out on the ability to heal the situation faster. If we put the wrong kind of attention on it, we make the problem worse.

Honestly, I don't even think about this usually before talking. My first thought is "Is this accurate? Logical? Correct?" and then I jump in. I suppose I have faith that if everyone strived to be more accurate and fair minded, many things would just work themselves out...

You know.. i think we are both thinking about this issue in the same way. There is not much that i can add to your reply. Since we both
want to address this problem by it's root. Polarisation of a group is sometimes very deeply entrenched in a society. But my point is to
avoid to bring up examples that would "emphasize" the differences between groups of people. But i am open to discuss "polarisation" as a problem that a society can have. But sometimes it is best to carry on with our lives. And treat other people equally. If everyone does that then maybe after some generations this problem is tackled. But everytime when someone says something that would polarise groups with a statement. Then we revert back to defending our point. Instead of just letting it rest and let time heal our wounds. Which in my view would be best.
I am sure you also agree on that. :)

1. If you don't like this kind of discussion, then you are free to stay out of it.


2. Humans have a tendency to dislike it whenever their culture's "dirty laundry" is made public. Thus, people like Bill Cosby and John McWhorter are criticized whenever they point out self-inflicted wounds within the USA's African-American subculture.

McWhorter, to his credit, anticipated being criticized for his act of exposing such "dirty laundry".

Here is an excerpt from his article published by the Daily Beast:



I would point out that the "acting white" problem is a cultural problem and a generational problem, not a racial one.

Also, this particular problem, regardless of how big it is, reveals an anti-white bigotry whose name some people dare not speak.

1 I would love to stay out of it. But i have a tendency to respond to things that i find stigmatizing and unfair.

2 Assigning "dirty laundry" to a whole group that basically wants to build up a decent life. Is an unfair bias to my view.
If people are constantly reminded of examples of what they are not responsible for. Then they will act accordingly.
And it has nothing to do in my view, with any conspiracy theories.

I find it unfair for black children in the USA to be accused of "acting white" because those children are doing things that will help them to be successful later in life.

I find it unfair for such anti-white bigotry to be proverbially "swept under the rug".

Thankfully, I already know that life isn't supposed to be fair.

It has nothing to do with assigning anything to a whole group.

McWhorter wrote an article defending a black college student who posted a video saying that being articulate and speaking the english language properly was not something only white people should do.

Apparently, this black female student was taken to task and accused of not following the 'it's racism' that keeps certain black students from excelling.

It is that simple..

Disagree. A woman doesn't know more about her biology than say a gynecologist just because she is a woman. As a white male I have lived my life and can talk on my experiences, however that doesn't mean I know more about being white or male than someone who isn't white or male who does extensive research and studies on those things. 1 data point is useless. My life could be an outlier. I guess I should be a urologist because of all this experience with....