James wrote:
Then Invisible and others are right that people who feel that they are full of sin are the ones who feel a need to point out sin in others.

James, Andrea, and others:
I consider myself a sinner because I'm weak. But do i go around judging others anc dalling them sinners?
I don't think so.
What upsets me is that all of the non-christians around here bash what I love the most which is my Lord Jesus Christ, but you guys based your judgments in other chrisitian's behaviors.
I believe that the Lord is my savior, and I'm saved through him. I recognize that what the other christians consider as a sin, it's also a sin as I uncderstand.
But i don't go around pointing out or judging non-believers, and you guys know me.
Then my upset state is because you guys generalize. I hate generalization like when some ladies say "All men are like that" you guys say "Christians are..." why don't you say some chrisitians are..."
And from there you guys start saying all the horrible things you say about christianity because a couple of people extremely zeleous about their beliefs.
I'm also zeleous, I don't judge because I'm not suppose to judge.
i recognize that a sin is a sin, but I don't call any of u sinners.
So please please as James asked for differenciate between personal beliefs and judgments.
I ask you not to generalize.
because each time u say whatever you guys say about christians you are also including me, and that hurts.
Because all of you know me, and you know i'm the absolute opposite to the person with whom you spend that much time debating.
At least for me give some credit to christianity.

Miguel,

I’m sure that you have never heard me say a bad word about Jesus. I admire the man greatly. I would never put down Jesus as a man. Neither do I denounce that he was ‘god’, on the contrary I completely accept that he was indeed god. I just happen to think of god differently than you do.

I admire anyone who TRULY follows the teachings of Jesus. I do not denounce “Christians” and never have. You have probably just assumed that this is what I meant when in fact it was not.

I do. however, have strong opinions on the larger historical picture of the religion overall as it has to do with human philosophy. That is a philosophical topic and see absolutely nothing wrong with voicing my views on it as a whole. It’s part of the history of humanity and I’m human.

If men like Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, and many more great men in history can voice their opinions concerning their disbelief in this particular human philosophy, then I see no reason why I should not also have a right to voice my views as well.

I might add, that in this particular thread I don’t believe that I have even mentioned “Christians, or Christianity”. All I’ve addressed are judgmental people. If that automatically makes one think of Christians, that’s not my fault.

If you go back to page one of this thread and use your Browser’s EDIT (FIND) function and search for the word Christian, I can assure you that you won’t find the word in any of my posts.

Other people have responded back to me using that word. But that was merely their assumption. I was merely addressing bigoted and judgmental people. I never once mentioned anything about Christians.

James:

My comment was general to all the threads, not just this one in specific.
I guess when u posted this thread u were referring to all the threads in general
I did the same thing.

'Lonely',

You're the light!!!

I don't know that we would agree on the definition of a sin or a sinner, but who cares. I totally get your point about Christians.

Like any groups, good and bad apples will find their way through the bunch.

To me, there need not even be bad Christians, or Muslims, or Jews, or Hindus...

What's destructive is the rise in fundamental and fanatical acts and behavior in the name of religions or beliefs.
People in all these denominations whom don't keep their own fanaticism and fundamentalism in check.

Fanaticism and fundamentalism are rooted in fear, delusion, hopelessness, and desperation. Bigotry and hatred are never far. That is as far as cna be from the message of love and unity from any of those religions.

So you are abslolutely right 'lonely', only some religious compulsives(regardless of denominations), or other zealots, not reponsible for their 'obsessive', fanatical and fundamentalistic ways, are to be called out, and made aware of their 'sinful', or destructive behaviors.

How's that 'lonely' !?!??!

Voileazur:
nevertheless, they are also my brothers and sisters. And it's my duty to find my Lord's face in them in the same manner as I need to see Jesus in you andother non-Chrsitians.
If I can't see my Lord in each person who crosses my path, I would be a different person.

But I had already agreed in my post 'lonely',

"... People in all these denominations whom don't keep their own fanaticism and fundamentalism in check...
... are to be called out, and made aware of their 'sinful', or destructive behaviors..."

Isn't that the same as the sin/sinner thing!?!?!?

yes, u did my friend.
one thing is saying: "OK, this is a sin." with which i agree in doing.
another thing is saying: "you are a sinner and u r going to hell." with which i don't agree.
so once again all my friends christians and non-christians let's not generalize.

I definitely agree with you 'lonely',

You wrote:
"... another thing is saying: "you are a sinner and u r going to hell." with which i don't agree..."

... and I think you know me better than that!!! I would never call someone a sinner and send him to hell.

I seriously question the concept of sin for myself. I am clear about the concept of going against one's nature or spirit though. And I would readily intervene in pointing that out to people around me, ... if i noticed they were doing something against their nature, clearly hurtful to them or others. I just really haven't come to the point where I have had the need to put a sinful twist on it for myself. But that's just me.

I'm not trying to stir the flames or upset anyone, but I am offering a non-Christian perspective on something.

my disclaimer: I have never been a "christian" but I believe in Jesus. My viewpoint is similar to Abra's and I won't delve deeply into it because really, it isn't the point here. I'm not bashing ANYBODY, and many of the greatest people I know are Christian. And the people who are zealots and bigots, no matter their faith, I still love, because nobody deserves not to be loved.

anyway, this is the point-

Not being a Christian, and not holding the Christian value of "sin" , being told I am a sinner feels like somebody is passing judgment on me. While I understand that "your religion" tells me that I am a sinner, please understand that mine dose not and I feel judged, though I know, YOU as a person aren't necessarily judging me. And even when I feel judged, I let it go as best i can and just love

TLW - I believe that many make the error that you have pointed out. I also believe they mean to generalize. That generality must sometimes be put into context with the discussion.

Believe me when I tell you, I do understand. Remember that Christianity is much more acceted than being a homosexual.

At least there are many times when 'Christianity' is generalized in a good way, and in a good light. I can't say the same for those who generalize about the GLBT community.

So it's a good thing to point the error out now and again, but it's also a good thing to understand when YOU are not included in generalizations.

Big hug to you my friend.

Abra-

Although I long for peace, and attempt to make peace when possible, I hope I will always "fight" against prejudice and bigotry.

I have never understood why some people really want to know what (non-harmful) actions other people are involved with... and to judge them for those actions... and tell them what they should or shouldn't be doing...

Why?

If I like someone I want them to do the things that make them useful and happy people... but if I don't care about you then I honestly don't care what you do as long as it doesn't harm others...

Miguel-

Prejudice against Christians is as wrong as any other generalization of a group... I agree with you that one should always use care not to extrapolate too widely...

I try to be conscious of that tendency. I believe it is sloppy thinking and it robs individuals of their uniqueness. But I think it is an easy trap to fall into- thinking that because a group of people have one thing in common that they must agree on other things as well.

Please feel free to point such a mistake out to me if I commit this (or other) error. You know I will listen to such a critique, and I believe most of the posters here will always listen if approached nonconfrontationally...




~~~~~~~

Sister, thanks for the post- I feel the same way. I don't believe in "sin" and I do not enjoy being told that I am a "sinner". I try to examine my behavior and make it the best I can without getting caught up in unproductive dwelling on the mistakes of the past but "sin" and "repentence" are not welcome terms or concepts for my life.

It is obvious to me that I am flawed and will never be otherwise in this life, but the concepts of "sin" and "original sin" are abhorrent to me and I would not like them to be associated with my life, thoughts or actions. They are not productive for me.

Miguel,
I'm a bit taken aback by your post.
I have never, nor will I ever, bashed Jesus Christ.
I will however always stand up to those who call themselves Christians and take it upon themselves to judge me because I do not. These are the people to give Christianity a bad name.

I make judgements whether to assaciate with another person or not and my basis is simple. the ten commandments are my law and I try to follow them as best as I can. I treat all people with respect but I don't know what god will say to others at their last judgement for I can't read the hearts of others. I must concentrate on me and my morals. I have the right to make judgements about others but not the right to punish them. If you lived in afganistan or iran or saudi arabia, you might go to prison or be executed for the things you say on this forum.
we are free in this country to disagree. If you follow Jesus you must forgive and move on toward the final day. I don't know if I have twenty years or twenty minutes to live so I just try to be kind to my fellow man and help when able and move away from evil.

RE:

"I don't know if I have twenty years or twenty minutes to live so I just try to be kind to my fellow man and help when able...."

-what he said...

Twenty years or twenty minutes, it's all the same to me.

Stevewm writes:

" Well Abra...all of you accused us of being judgemental because you do not believe as we do. So please explain why it is so different? If we are placing judgement then so are you. Bottom line. You are judging us for what we believe if that is the case."

Oh! Hi Steve! I'm fine, thanks for asking. How are you?

Well, let's look at what you believe, shall we? Apparently you think I'm a bully, troublemaker and an idiot. And that I should-- how did you say it? "Piss off"? And that you believe I should be silenced by being kicked off of JSH, a point you continued to make in language that would empty a bar filled with stevedors. All because I pointed out that some of your statements were inconsistent when contrasted with your admitted actions, re. smoking being bad and being a choice (although one which is terribly hard to cold turkey from, I realize).

So, who's judging? As a libertarian, I think you have a right to do whatever your want to your body. And I will support to the death your right to try to have me tossed off of here because you just hate what I have to say.

But I digress. What I really wanted to say was.....









:P

Meep! Meep!




-Kerry O.

As a Christian I will be the first to say that there is only One Judge.....I agree that you can have your opinions and not be judgemental. However, sometimes in the context of how you state your opinion can also be judgemental. Example: I can say you are going to hell if you don't believe Christ died on the cross for our sins. Or I can say you have a choice to believe or not belive and then will have to live with the consequences....Do you see the difference.

Feralcatlady writes:

"Example: I can say you are going to hell if you don't believe Christ died on the cross for our sins. Or I can say you have a choice to believe or not belive and then will have to live with the consequences....Do you see the difference. "

Sure. And I can point out that Christians aren't immune to the same vicarious guilty pleasure that drives people to watch reality TV-- that it's not enough to win unless someone we can't identify with gets their just desserts.

Would you be terribly disappointed to find out that if there is an afterlife, there is also no hell? Just someplace else a little less xenophobic where everybody else gets to do all the neat things you imagine you're going to be doing?

-Kerry O.

See Kerry I totally agree with you....because believe me just because I am a Christian doesn't mean that I don't sin....I do...I just know when I do...thats the difference...because I hold myself accountable...does it stop me from sinning....no....

See in that lies the difference Kerry....I know where I will be going when God takes me home, or Christ comes for me. And I do believe their is a hell...as I believe there is evil, satan and all his deminions. But hey if you want to believe in an afterlife and that there is no hell....you surly can as you were given by God the freewill to do so.