Some times if we just tend to our own yards first before venturing out into the big bad world to change all evil...

Instead of looking at the negative & it taking up all that space in your head, for each negative thought you have, say for starters,
It's just pissin you off to HAVE TO work & YOUR hard earned $$$ paying for them to stay home...
Be grateful that you have a job now!!
That your off the streets.
How can you help to change the system..
Cuz it sure doesnt do a bit a good to piss & moan about it.
All it's doin is making you cranky!!
JJeezzzz, dude you attacked lulu that you know NOTHING about WTF!
When you get off your soap box & start on the system start with the goverment then maybe it will all fall like a house of cards.

Hi cutelittledevilsmom ,

Just read your post. You talk about the humiliation of having to "piss in a cup". How is a welfare applicant doing it any more huliating than me having to do it as a condition of my continued employment? For the record, I do not, nor have I ever, used illegal drugs. In effect, I submit to random drug testing to revieve a (pay)check. Why does anyone have a problem with a welfare recipient submitting to random drug testing to recieve a check?

Why should they not have to do it and I do?
I'd like someone to try to answer that one intellegently.

(((((lulu)))))

I suspect we agree on more than you acknowledge!!

Welfare, in any form is the most noble cause in America. Sure their are abuses, but over all it is a much needed and wonderful cause.

People suffer, and before you judge them you should try and walk in their shoes and live with their demons! Try to take the you approach at least. what if you had suffered the losses and tragedies they have. What if you were not as strong mentally to shut out all the demons, or overcome the tragedies!

Many things happen in peoples lives, things that may or may not be within their control. The reactions of individuals to these forces can be as individual as the individual them self.

I dont mind my taxes going to help people, but I do hate abuse of the system. Before we go eliminating which causes are just and which aren't, we need to use compassion and judge the individual cases one by one. Not just eliminate everyone who is on drugs, because they are.

What about the combat Veterans that return with Ghosts from their experiences? Many of these men and women will turn to drugs and alcohol. Esp the ones that had these addictions before they went! What about people who watch a family member or child die in front of their eyes? Everyone is not able to deal with that, and they turn to drugs or alcohol. Rape victims, children who have been abused, molested, or abandoned, etc.

Do we mark everyone as unacceptable and stamp denied on their request for help?

OK, I'm through, I might be hard and extreme lulu, but I'm not a completely callous person!

lol...well said.

first, i'm EXTREMELY anti-drug. i refuse to have ANYONE in my life that's a user...period. i've never even exposed my children to CIGARETTE smoke, let alone anything else. i am waaaaay against decriminalization, and i'm the quickest to speak out on the negative effects that it can have on the mind, body, and the lives of those around you. i don't believe a parent should EVER be on drugs...

second, the REALITY is that there are people out there that ARE on drugs. LOTS of them...and yes, they sometimes breed. children need food, shelter, and medical care. period. there should never be any qualifications on that...they are literally our future.

and those drug users? i've often been called cold, but i'll be damned if i want anyone to starve. EVERYONE needs food...and sometimes, a helping hand. yes, some will slap it...yes, some will take more than their due...but some WILL be truly helped.

psychological studies have shown that children are harmed by being taken from their parents. that family is very important to the maturation of their brains...but even if that were NOT so...where will you EVER find enough quality places to provide a better environment for these kids? it's idealistic to even think you could come close...we'd end up with a whole lot of emotionally disconnected children. i RAISED a child that came from a drug-home...and it's freaking difficult. i've wanted to STRANGLE her mother...many times.

there's not enough foster homes, not enough help...not enough placement. so let's just add a lack of medical care and starvation to these children. let's toss MORE issues on their already burdened lives.

The sad thing about stating that these drug users still need to feed their kids, is that yes that is true; But...truth is many, many of them use their tanif or food stamps to get the drugs from dealers for 50 cents on the dollar and less. It is a fact of life this happens all the time.

I am all for drug testing those getting government assistance. if they have nothing to hide, then they should not complain. I have to get drug tested to get a job in most places.

You can fool the cheap version of a drug test. They are a joke really. Read them, they say to drink at least a gallon of water with it. A gallon of water. Get it? It is the amount of liquid that you take in before and after the test. But, the smart test detects the ingredients of those clean out concoctions. The smart test also shows that their is a chemical missing from ones urine if you are trying to cover up drug use. Some kind of "k" something or other.
Anyway; here they are going to the hair test in many places. You can't fool that one.
Kat

i took a drug test once after a gallon of water (actually, it was sweet tea)...and it came back with the results "not compatible with human urine"

i had to schedule a re-take...luckily, they allowed me to.

So, if they sale or trade the food stamps for drugs then you deal with that problem appropriately, but what are you going to do if theyfail a drug test? Deny them and their children help. Take their children from them.
That is not a solution to anything. Tell me how that would help.
Isnt the goal to help them function and contribute to society.
Show me how this would help anything, except instil fear in people to not seek help, or increase the foster children in the stsyem. Many foster children, and I see them everyday, end up as drug addicts and alchoholics becuse of being shuffled around from home to home their whole lives!
How are you fixing anything with drug testing? where is the reasoning you used to come to this conclusion.
Find a solution a real solution!

ALL drugs MUST be legalised - Have we learned nothing from prohibition? Who the hell is the govt. to tell anyone what they can or can't put in their own bodies, in a "free" society?
The govt. makes too much money on illegal drugs - THAT'S why
they're still illegal.

I wouldnt legalize meth or crack.......actually heroin is actually easier on the brain that either of those drugs. I still wouldnt legalize them. Everyone including your grandmother will be jonesing geeeeeez.....

Hi everyone, here I am , late as usual.

I don't consider myself a socialist. At least not in the sense that our economic rights should be shared equally by all. I'm not sure what I am as far as labels, for I believe in the capitalistic race but not in leaving the helpless behind.

Now within this thread I have seem most posts deal with regards to welfare, which is a state run affair, and should not be a concern of the Federal government. Our government assures us equal rights and treatment under the law, and certain other rights, like the right work for wages.

What the Federal government has chosen to control is disability entitlements which come directly from the social security benefits. Since this discussion began with welfare, I will contain myself to that topic.

We seem to have decided that the welfare of every child is the business of every adult. Even in the matter of 'pro-life'. If that is going to be the case then each state must put quite a bit of expenditure to see to all those children. Remember this, I'll get back to it.

About welfare - I don't have a problem with any state I live in having a welfare program that 'assists' those to provide for themselves. Part of that assistance, of course, would be to maintain life's necessities while the program is under way.

Now what is the program? The program would be to provide the minimal amount of education, rehabilitation, and medication necessary to employ a person. Do they require a college degree, absolutely not. Do they require a high school equivalency? Do they require any rehabilitation efforts, ok. Do they require medical attention and medication? ok. Do we find jobs for them? Hell no!

So we have these people who we can help get back into a productive mainstream. We MUST have the appropriate organizations and enough people in these organizations including an ongoing evaluation process. Part of this process "I agree" should be a drug test. why? If I have a 20 year old kid who sits around getting high or tripping out or drinking all day to his or her harm and at my expense and I can do nothing about it, touch love tells me I need to kick that kid out on it's own.
Why would I expect any less of a stranger than I do of my own child? Clean up your act or get out. If you're out and decide to clean up your act, I will help you. But I will not be an enabler.

There should also be a time limit for the welfare and it must be appropriate to any situation. In other words it can not be a one time period, fits all situations. The monitoring process must also have a set of goals and the ability to flex if unforeseen changes to a situation occur.

Now back to the children, that as a society we have all decided need protection from all adults. Many of those who will require welfare, also have children. Many will be able to keep their children, but keeping them would require that the person being helped, is a fit parent "not on drugs, and not affected by a mental incapacity. Not abusive to their children, and whatever else might be determined to put a child in harms way.

With all this we have a welfare system that would need to employ many hundreds of people, and consult with many hundreds more. There are administrative fees and expenses and on and on.

Most states can't even keep track of the children already in the system. Now we have to have a bigger better system, to provide, the necessities of those children whose parents or guardians are on welfare. It must be capable of providing, at times both temporary and long term care.

And if those on welfare do not meet their goals, if they do not live up to expectations that are contractually agreed on, they get kicked out. And here's a good rub, if they do not comply, after being kicked out, with showing that they can adequately provide for their children, they don't get them, until they show such proof.

Now there you have it. If you want to be socialistic, then take it to the max. Protect those kids - we can identify a good majority of them now, through such a welfare system.

And just so no one thinks I'm leaving out those who will never be able to be self sufficient - that's what long term disability is for, not the welfare system.

I,like many have had to work more than one job at a time. Like many, I have had to and still have to live without in order to go to school and still work at the same time. I will not expect any person who wants taxes to pay for their welfare, to do any less than what I have had to do. And further, if we want to do it all right, and protect the children at the same time, be prepared. Depending on the state you live in the welfare needs of that state, you could be looking at a pretty dam n heavy tax requirement. Instead, we are happy to put something half in place, and unhappy because our tax money is wasted by a flawed system.

Its funny...most of the ppl I seen in the welfare office were able bodied young men who, I knew, picked up the check and sold drugs as well.... they were lazzzzzzzy azzzzzzzzes and should have been off of the system

hey to start off lulu sorry for attacking you ,well the safety of the children are important and if the parents are on illegal drugs then the kids need to go toa relative who is not on drugs and they should get the money to support those kids.ppl need to realize life is short and many ppl waste it becouse they can i use to be on drugs hard drugs and i quit been clean for ten yrs.i made it with out the system some ppl can't and that is fine but ,the goverment needs to find a solution for the problem .i get drug tested and so do many other ppl and if your not using and you working and you ned help and the welfare system want to test you you should be proud very proud that you know yours is clean .the salvation army ,before they put peaple in shelters or try and help them get back on their feet they do a drug test.so i just think that the goverment needs to find a way and help ppl with out give them money so that the ones that abuse it won't go and spend it on drugs ,may be give the food but just enoughtto feed them for a week or two while they find a job specially if they are into drugs or something.

Thank you White!! that sounded alot better!!
You should be proud of what you have acomplished!!

thank you ,i'm tring to learn i don't know eveything ,i do know that the kids need help and just maybe someone will find a way to do that and make it work

apology accepted.

while in theory, i agree with you...i'm more concerned with the actualization of said idea...i just don't think there's enough concerned people that are WILLING to take those kids. and...which is worse? yanking kids away from mommy, or being in a house with a user? depends on the situation...

i've been clean since october 1994...and would personally have no problem with such a test for myself...but i DO know people, and have relatives...that would have starving kids if they had to worry about a test. food benefits GO for food...and i've never personally met a dealer that would take a bag of donuts in exchange for an eight-ball.

if we make it more difficult for these people to GET help...then more of them will go without.

whitewolf that was much better.

knox i have to take a drug test at work also.but believe it or not going to the welfare office is not easy for everyone.The workers are condecending,people out there think if your on welfare your a loser or worse and most folks don't like charity.
work I understand because we take care of vulnerable people,but when asking for help it shoukd be given with no strings attached unless you feel unworthy.I think we need to worry more about government waste then the small percentage who abuse the welfare system.
Being poor sucks enough,why make it tougher?

I don't know if any of you heard it, A few years ago there was a investigation into the child services out here in CA.

They have always been total jerks to deal with anyways, they had gotten worse.. they were pulling kids out of homes that hadn't ever been in trouble. they would make it to where they couldnt get them back when they had gone thru what was required.
I'm not sure how much it is now a few yrs. ago foster parents got $800 a kid.. & then when they kept these cases open longer than need be then more social workers were needed..
So needless to say the system failed again & as in most cases it was the poor children that got the worst of it...
My nephew was in the system it took us yrs. to get him out..
He was with a nice couple that at one point in the middle of the night got 3 lil gurls. that the uncle of the foster care lady had been molesting..
So at a young age my nephew was exposed to deal with these tramatized gurls..
Another night in the middle of the night they went in & pulled him & the other kids there.
Because a warped kid that came in there said ruby had hit her.
so 3 am the social workers & police show up & pull those kids in a raid & rush them off to a strange house...
they were back home there in a couple days it was all bogus!!
In the mean time I wonder how many children suffered because of those county works greed???

Yea I've heard people selling there food stamps $.50 on the $1.00 now they have a credit card out here.
So they don't have lines for days at the check cashing places..

people trying to beat the system will always find a way..

you know in reality ppl should just give up becouse no matter what you do or say it's not going to make a diffrence.ppl will always find away to abuse the system and it's not fair for us tax payers to support the habit .and we do and there is nothing we can do about it .

Shame od it is: The system will always be flawed. Not enough manpower to keep up. There is a long version and a short version to qualify. The long version tells all ones bills and breaks down debits. Now there is where welfare should step in and demand receipts for all food bought with food stamps. I'm not sure anymore how the checks work. But, that food card is as easy to abuse as the actual food stamps was. The simply hand the card over and give their code number to theur dealer and get the card back when it is finished. Dealers love them. If they do not use the groceries, they simplt trade them to their dealer who uses them.

There is more scamming going on in the welfare system than one wants to know.
Here one has to show PROOF? that he-she needs them. People lie and show names and dependants that do not live there.
One sees the women with all her kids inside and the man outside sitting in the car talking on cell phones (while a reduced home phone is provided at little or no cost) and the car is newer and nicer than mine. The clothes they wear are updated and nicer than mine. She gets more money and foodstamps if he is not listed. (absent father)And, she gets more tanif or checks if he is not listed. All one has to do is hide his clothes every couple of months when the caseworker comes in. Which, by the way, she is given ample notice when they are coming.
I see recipients getting reduced housing to nearly nothing and getting foodstamps and checks that live better than I do. Gathering outside all hours of the night drinking and smoking and obviously doing drugs. It is a fact that these helping hands are being abused by soooo many. They are the ones that have no fear asking for a hand. The ones that are embarrassed to ask are usually the ones that should get halp. If their is shame felt and uncertainty, then they are ususally the real ones that just got down on their luck.
In our state after three kids, they quit helping them pay for having them. Three....that seems a little high to me. I mean they help then have and take care of that child from birth til they are 18. I think two should do it. I believe there should be a three year limit on able bodied people to get a job and proove themselves from there on out. if they work and still have to have help, then so be it. At least then, they are trying.

Kat

We are only as strong as the weakest of us