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Topic: What is the will, and is it free?
Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Mon 02/04/13 08:32 AM
What is the will anyway, and is it "free?" Or are we all a bunch of living flesh responding to stimuli and instinct and programming with no choices? If we have no will of our own, then why should anyone be accountable for any of their crimes or actions?

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Wed 02/06/13 08:34 AM
If by free you mean acausal. No. If by free you mean can do otherwise, then yes.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Wed 02/06/13 08:42 AM
I am not sure what acausal means. Acausal, as an adjective, may refer to: In Jungian psychology, acausal may be a synonym of synchronistic, i.e., related by meaning rather than causation. In engineering, acausal describes a system or filter whose output at time T depends partly on its input for some later time T+n.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Wed 02/06/13 08:45 AM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Wed 02/06/13 08:47 AM
I am not sure what acausal means. Acausal, as an adjective, may refer to: In Jungian psychology, acausal may be a synonym of synchronistic, i.e., related by meaning rather than causation. In engineering, acausal describes a system or filter whose output at time T depends partly on its input for some later time T+n. In laymen terms. Without cause. Decisions have causes, often many more than we consciously know, this does not mean however that we cannot do otherwise. I can choose to not duck the brick thrown my way . . .

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Wed 02/06/13 12:15 PM
I am not sure what acausal means. Acausal, as an adjective, may refer to: In Jungian psychology, acausal may be a synonym of synchronistic, i.e., related by meaning rather than causation. In engineering, acausal describes a system or filter whose output at time T depends partly on its input for some later time T+n. In laymen terms. Without cause. Decisions have causes, often many more than we consciously know, this does not mean however that we cannot do otherwise. I can choose to not duck the brick thrown my way . . . Okay you are saying then, that we do have a "will" that can choose what we will do or not do. I agree.

TexasScoundrel Joined Wed 10/29/08 Posts: 3693	Fri 02/08/13 10:10 PM Edited by TexasScoundrel on Fri 02/08/13 10:12 PM
What is the will anyway, and is it "free?" Or are we all a bunch of living flesh responding to stimuli and instinct and programming with no choices? If we have no will of our own, then why should anyone be accountable for any of their crimes or actions? The will is an illusion created by our own minds. It's free in the since that it doesn't cost anything. Yes, we are only robots responding to the environment with instincts that evolved over many generations. We can still punish someone for their crimes because what they do effects the well being of others whether they had a choice in the matter or not. When we punish it is also use instincts.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Fri 02/08/13 10:48 PM
What is the will anyway, and is it "free?" Or are we all a bunch of living flesh responding to stimuli and instinct and programming with no choices? If we have no will of our own, then why should anyone be accountable for any of their crimes or actions? The will is an illusion created by our own minds. It's free in the since that it doesn't cost anything. Yes, we are only robots responding to the environment with instincts that evolved over many generations. We can still punish someone for their crimes because what they do effects the well being of others whether they had a choice in the matter or not. When we punish it is also use instincts. I use the term "free will" because that is what most people use. In reality, the "will" is just the "will." You either use it or you don't. It is certainly not an "illusion." It is the concept of consciousness. No, we are not "only robots" responding to the environment who happen to have instincts that "evolved." If you believe that, then I understand why you can believe that life has no meaning.

TexasScoundrel Joined Wed 10/29/08 Posts: 3693	Fri 02/08/13 10:57 PM
What is the will anyway, and is it "free?" Or are we all a bunch of living flesh responding to stimuli and instinct and programming with no choices? If we have no will of our own, then why should anyone be accountable for any of their crimes or actions? The will is an illusion created by our own minds. It's free in the since that it doesn't cost anything. Yes, we are only robots responding to the environment with instincts that evolved over many generations. We can still punish someone for their crimes because what they do effects the well being of others whether they had a choice in the matter or not. When we punish it is also use instincts. I use the term "free will" because that is what most people use. In reality, the "will" is just the "will." You either use it or you don't. It is certainly not an "illusion." It is the concept of consciousness. No, we are not "only robots" responding to the environment who happen to have instincts that "evolved." If you believe that, then I understand why you can believe that life has no meaning. Consciousness is also an illusion.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 02/09/13 03:04 PM
What is the will anyway, and is it "free?" Or are we all a bunch of living flesh responding to stimuli and instinct and programming with no choices? If we have no will of our own, then why should anyone be accountable for any of their crimes or actions? The will is an illusion created by our own minds. It's free in the since that it doesn't cost anything. Yes, we are only robots responding to the environment with instincts that evolved over many generations. We can still punish someone for their crimes because what they do effects the well being of others whether they had a choice in the matter or not. When we punish it is also use instincts. I use the term "free will" because that is what most people use. In reality, the "will" is just the "will." You either use it or you don't. It is certainly not an "illusion." It is the concept of consciousness. No, we are not "only robots" responding to the environment who happen to have instincts that "evolved." If you believe that, then I understand why you can believe that life has no meaning. Consciousness is also an illusion. Reality is an illusion also then.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 02/09/13 03:06 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 02/09/13 03:07 PM
Mingle2 is an illusion. TexasScoundrel is an illusion. This entire reality and everything in it is an illusion of the mind. The mind, the brain, and everything that exists is a manifestation of consciousness. so that would make everything an illusion.

TexasScoundrel Joined Wed 10/29/08 Posts: 3693	Sat 02/09/13 03:33 PM
Mingle2 is an illusion. TexasScoundrel is an illusion. This entire reality and everything in it is an illusion of the mind. The mind, the brain, and everything that exists is a manifestation of consciousness. so that would make everything an illusion. If the universe turns out to be a simulation this would be correct. We'd all be examples of artificial intelligence running around inside an illusion. However, the idea that consciousness is an illusion doesn't lead to everything being an illusion. We could be real and be fooled into thinking (I use the term "thinking" loosely in this context) we're conscious.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 02/09/13 05:19 PM
Mingle2 is an illusion. TexasScoundrel is an illusion. This entire reality and everything in it is an illusion of the mind. The mind, the brain, and everything that exists is a manifestation of consciousness. so that would make everything an illusion. If the universe turns out to be a simulation this would be correct. We'd all be examples of artificial intelligence running around inside an illusion. However, the idea that consciousness is an illusion doesn't lead to everything being an illusion. We could be real and be fooled into thinking (I use the term "thinking" loosely in this context) we're conscious. I can't prove it, but I believe that consciousness is the basis for everything. Without it, there is no life.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 02/09/13 05:21 PM
An "illusion" is something that we can see and we think is real. You can't call consciousness an illusion because, like the mind, you can't see it. You can's see a lot of things. Love, hate, emotions, thoughts... you can't see any of these things.

TexasScoundrel Joined Wed 10/29/08 Posts: 3693	Sat 02/09/13 06:38 PM
I can't prove it, but I believe that consciousness is the basis for everything. Without it, there is no life. Is algae conscious? What about carrots?

TexasScoundrel Joined Wed 10/29/08 Posts: 3693	Sat 02/09/13 06:40 PM
An "illusion" is something that we can see and we think is real. You can't call consciousness an illusion because, like the mind, you can't see it. You can's see a lot of things. Love, hate, emotions, thoughts... you can't see any of these things. an Illusion doesn't have to be seen. I can create the illusion of wind by turning on a fan. You cannot see the wind.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 02/09/13 06:56 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 02/09/13 07:00 PM
An "illusion" is something that we can see and we think is real. You can't call consciousness an illusion because, like the mind, you can't see it. You can's see a lot of things. Love, hate, emotions, thoughts... you can't see any of these things. an Illusion doesn't have to be seen. I can create the illusion of wind by turning on a fan. You cannot see the wind. That would have to be a large fan if you convince someone it is wind. But in movies, I can see illusions are created all the time. By "seen" that would include detected by any of our senses. Wind is felt. It is moving air. Hence, the moving air created by a fan is also wind.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 02/09/13 06:57 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 02/09/13 06:58 PM
I can't prove it, but I believe that consciousness is the basis for everything. Without it, there is no life. Is algae conscious? What about carrots? Yes. Consciousness comes in degrees. It exists in everything and is everywhere. even bacteria, cells, atoms, protons,

TexasScoundrel Joined Wed 10/29/08 Posts: 3693	Sat 02/09/13 07:10 PM
An "illusion" is something that we can see and we think is real. You can't call consciousness an illusion because, like the mind, you can't see it. You can's see a lot of things. Love, hate, emotions, thoughts... you can't see any of these things. an Illusion doesn't have to be seen. I can create the illusion of wind by turning on a fan. You cannot see the wind. That would have to be a large fan if you convince someone it is wind. But in movies, I can see illusions are created all the time. By "seen" that would include detected by any of our senses. Wind is felt. It is moving air. Hence, the moving air created by a fan is also wind. Yes, but it's artificial wind. Maybe the thing you call consciousness is also artificial. Yes. Consciousness comes in degrees. It exists in everything and is everywhere. even bacteria, cells, atoms, protons, Unless you have some evidence to back this up I'm going to have to say you're making a pretty wild assumption.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 02/09/13 07:15 PM
Yes, but it's artificial wind. Maybe the thing you call consciousness is also artificial. Moving air is moving air. There is nothing "artificial" about it. The only difference between the fan air and wind is what causes it. Yes. Consciousness comes in degrees. It exists in everything and is everywhere. even bacteria, cells, atoms, protons, Unless you have some evidence to back this up I'm going to have to say you're making a pretty wild assumption. I don't consider them to be "assumptions" at all. I derived at this hypothesis by logical deduction.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 02/09/13 07:18 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 02/09/13 07:25 PM
Consciousness: Perhaps we can agree that consciousness is considered to be "awareness" or the capacity to be aware. Some living things are more aware than others. Agreed? Humans, as far as we know, are more aware (more conscious) than animals. Agreed? (They are self aware.) There is the beginning of my logic.... Are we in agreement?