its hard to tell in black and white,, so this was just a joke?

"They cant help it. Liberals have no class, integrity, common sence or tact and are immature and most are uneducated, guillable and easily manipulated. Most all are complete trash.
That's enough to make me never want to be liberal. Ever. "

mg1959 I like your post.

So many angry people on this Political forum.

Yes there are and it carries all the way to the top. One thing about anger is even when it wins it looses. One can disguise negative to look like positive but in the end the negative comes out and bad happens. With positive there's a totally different feeling, resolve and will that comes from it. Negative is like this disembodiment, where positive is this rock. I've seen a lot of people go from negative to positive and the change is dramatic. Negative people spend a lot of their lives squirming, like every moment has to be manipulated or manufactured to defeat or hurt something or some one. Kinda like needing to get the upper hand even if it's for no other reason than to feel Superior. Being around positive people though is so different, they keep giving and pushing to help and the more they help the more they get blessed by helping and it feels so good you want to help more.

When I was in Mexico the first time I got typhoid and got it bad. It was in a little village that in the neighborhoods there was only one bathroom (an outhouse) at the top of a little hill. Typhoid comes with some nasty stuff including a really high temperature and delirium. I thought it was curtains for me. I stayed on a straw bed and shared the room with a pig (no kidding) and this huge spider in the corner. In about 2 weeks or so I started to come out of it and noticed that there was no one around from my group. I was scared to death until I noticed how nice these people were. Within a couple of days there was someone there that spoke English and I thought, ok I'm gonna make it. I was barely getting my feet underneath me and he asked me to come to the hut/house/shack next door. The guy told me they wanted me to eat. I was in no mood or condition to but he took me over there anyway. I walked in and there was a room full of folks and one bowl there with a pot on the table, some bread and a few other things. I thought this was so weird, but he had me sit down and start eating. These people were just watching me and smiling. I felt so odd and asked the guy why aren't they eating with me? The answer I got changed my life. I was their gift. Every year they saved up enough money to have one special meal. Beef from the US. All of their family would gather and feast on that day. This year they got US beef again, enough for one person. They spent the rest of their year's money saving the life of an American teenager. This teenager kept drifting in and out of delirium and these people carried him up and down the hill several times a day to rinse him. They also took him to the local medic 5 miles away in a wagon and did what was needed to keep him alive.

I was their gift.

How can we spend our time in anger. How can we be so selfish when there is so much to do. Sometimes we need to just shutup and do it. My life has been blessed with more than this one story because of them, but no event has allowed me to see how rich someone can really be.

Being rich is reaching out, not beating down.

If we are gonna get real here, we have to realize a few things first, the main one being that governments put people in the ditch, they don't pull them out of it. Anyone that can survive an engineered depression without a billion dollar "cushion" deserves a lot of credit for intelligence, resourcefulness and tenacity. they remind me of salmon swimming upstream against a heavy current...only the fittest survive.

Unfortunately, not all the "fish" are able to make it in that environment and if they are to survive, alternatives to the upstream swim must be found. In the current economy, that would entail creating a private business and dealing strictly in the private, with other private interests & away from any government interference. While the first thing that comes to mind is criminal activity (and many will turn to crime), it need not necessarily be a criminal enterprise (like banking). People can start all sorts of businesses, either on their own, or in tandem with other people. Private co-operatives come to mind, as a means of individuals in communities sticking together to help one another.

This sort of scenario forms a nice "middle ground" between our existing, screwed up society and chucking the whole mess to live off the land in a cabin somewhere, which falls at the complete abandonment of society and/or "commerce" end of the spectrum that I see many (justifiably) gravitating to.

Everyone has to do what they have to do to survive. It is up to the individual to determine for himself what that will be. Hopefully, whatever strategy is chosen, it will be one that doesn't hurt others and will be one that places NO RELIANCE on anything purporting to be "government". People should always be self-governing and free.

that's precisely why Government has to make an example of anyone like that!
Remember Ruby Ridge?

...and that is precisely why government should not be supported in phoney elections with things called votes...The best vote of all is not to go to the poll. People should always remember that the lesser evil is still evil, so why vote for it?...Don't give those clowns the pleasure of saying we ASKED for this.

So lets say someone gave you a town. How would you set it up? How would it relate to a county, the state and the United States? And then the world of course?

This isn't a bait BTW. I've always been interested in this. My factory was set up like a town in many ways. I was also involved in the town, county and state it was in. So that you don't get me wrong, my factory was in Amish country in Ohio and I spent time learning how they did things as opposed to the "English" they would say. So the self sufficient thing is very close to my thinking. In fact half of my workers were Amish.

So if we went in this direction there would need to be a plan and speaking from experience the company owner is too busy to make the plan and too busy to implement the plan. A business owner can not afford to development and run his own method of doing business. They may be able to run their own little part but that's even a challenge. There's too much involved and a co_op of some type has to be in place.

As much as I appreciate ideas as a businessman I need a plan to get me from step one through the end. Arguing and complaining inside of my business does nothing but spend my money. Every time someone has an idea my anti-money clock ticks and it takes nothing for a day to disappear. Do you know how much a day cost me? A day in my business can cost me a year.

When you guys say "phoney elections" and all that, it makes no sense to a businessman. It doesn't put a plan in front of me to consider. All of us can feel the frustration and want to blow off steam, but how does that place my order for 12ohm @.5 watt resisters today. The last thing we want to hear is someone being mad at somebody else or someone screwed up on line 5. We need people to see the problem on line 5 and get it fixed before we get overflow or underflow. And if they fix it so that there is no delay or break down we have saved the day and made money. "We have no time" for the "I don't like", cause it delivers "zero" unless there is a replacement for zero that we can plug in, in real time. NP are the worse 2 letters in the businessman's life.

At my factory big or small if you spend more than a couple of minutes on what is wrong before you fix it, your done. My point is and has been, if you have a plan that is positive lets get at it. I already know who you don't like, but if I'm standing here looking at my clock we have a problem. We have a rule at my business and most do that I know of. If you have a complaint and come into my office without a suggestion on how to fix it that goes beyond pointing a finger don't come in.

If you guys come to this forum without a plan that we can sit down and look at while the clock is ticking lets here it, cause if not it is a time burner and no business that I know of is going to give you the time of day. It's not cause we're mean or don't like you it's because we're busy.

Another rule in business, and if your truly wanting to help us in the middle get somewhere you need to be aware of these things.

10/90

If we loose 10% in profits we're done. We are not only looking at all we have to pay for but we are also looking at you as being 90% profitable. This goes for positive as well. If I have an employee that complains more than 10% their out. As a middle businessman I look at this forum and just by the figures would be forced to say "your out". I can't afford to take your advice if your words are less than 90% positive. In business school we call this "Fat". You will never attend a business program or seminar that is going to spend time on the negative (fat) past 10%, "that's a fact". The term Fat is not always the word used but it's the same teaching.

If you take this

"and that is precisely why government should not be supported in phoney elections with things called votes...The best vote of all is not to go to the poll. People should always remember that the lesser evil is still evil, so why vote for it?...Don't give those clowns the pleasure of saying we ASKED for this."

and apply our formula (which every business program in our country teaches) we would be out of business.

So for me, I come hear and hear what you guys are saying and it doesn't move my bottom line meter anywhere but backward. If you say your here to help me (the middle) than do it. But remember the businessman has to look at the bottom line every way it is sliced. That applies to the arguments as well as anything else.

Saying this though, if you give me a practical plan for a town I can look at it and see if it works for me, then I move it to the involvement in the county, state and country, world. Us business guys are all ears but we're not going to put stock in anyone who can't deliver the 10/90. Not going to happen and not going to consider it. NP (none productive). We are looking for productive. People who are looking at NP in our books have already lost or retired and are now armchair quarterbacks or giving motivation speeches on making the possitive outweigh the negative by getting rid of the NP or ripping down the very country that helped them in their time of need. But if their ripping they are more than likely being NP themselves and know it.

Businesses exist to provide goods & services to people. Government exists (ostensibly) to protect the people so they can enjoy life, liberty and the pursuit of their happiness. Any business that doesn't provide goods and/or services is doomed to fail (and deserves to); likewise, any government that doesn't foster conditions guaranteeing the people their rights should also close up shop and allow the people to freely choose a new one. It's no surprise that the governments of almost all western countries are run by their central banks (which are mostly private corporations operating on the sole ethic of profit, not as a public service, but as a fascist monopoly with a stranglehold on the economy). It is senseless to look to a government (which is run by and caters to the banks instead of the people) for any relief, the government (of the US and most western countries) is a for-profit corporation too (currently in receivership), and just as beholden to the receiver as any other business operating in bankruptcy. Instead of safeguarding the people, the government has used them as security against the bank loans to keep operating. It then goes and squanders most of that money on crap like weaponry and stupid geopolitical power games that actually hinder the peoples' safety, leaving those same people to bankroll their fiscal irresponsibility.

It's time for that garbage to stop, and the best way to stop it is to simply stop recognizing that the federal government has any authority and withdraw the delegation of your authority. As a business, you contract with other businesses and your customers. Why can't you continue to do that with private agreements (which exclude the government as a third party to the contract) instead of public ones which include an unproductive, parasitic corporation at odds with the interests of your business, your fellow businesses and your customers?

If currency is a problem, opt to use something other than US dollars for your transactions (the Bitcoin comes to mind)? State, city/municipal governance structures can be left intact until a new federation of free states can be created. Really, very little has to change, as the change would not be revolutionary. It would simply be a matter of the people firing a corporation operating in fraud and creating a new one that follows it's corporate mandate as a public servant, instdead of the public's master.

For me I would much rather see us where we are now after election than doing 4 more of the 2000 to 2008 years.

I just thought that since you are fond of the $6 trillion of debt accrued over the last 4 years that you would run your business like the government..

In case you were wondering they don't have any customers either..

Michael!...I just realized you did respond to me!...You tucked it neatly away into a response to someone else, so I did not see it until this morning! ...Unlike you, I consistently participate in political forums...By your own admission you say prior to the election you chose having your ears nibbled by your two sweeties over debating the merits and pitfalls of the Romney/Obama campaign platforms...I say fine and that's more info than I needed ...BUT, if you had participated even a little bit, you would know the healthcare bill is one of my biggest concerns.....
As for leveling you, how so?....You jumped in after the fact with a blanket condemnation to debaters here on their poor conduct followed by a rave review of the healthcare bill...Since I am totally opposed to it for many reasons and have stated the reasons in thread after thread, I was quite surprised to learn you support it....Our friendship is based on many things Michael, political affiliation (for me anyway) is not and never will be one of those things...I am not "jumping" you for having an opinion, I am asking you to elaborate on your opinion!....So rather than paint me as the bad guy for my opinion and response to a thread you created, why not answer my questions?...You have been pretty vocal about your entrepreneurial expertise so I'm thinking maybe you know something I don't, maybe you can enlighten me...
As for the "I love you" part, I love you toO Michael!