Community > Science & Philosophy

Topic: Not definite?
Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Wed 10/31/12 01:00 PM
Bushi: Time exists, but not as an entity. As a relationship between space, and matter. Much like gravity exists, but not as an entity, it also exists as a relationship between space and matter . . . just a different relationship. JB: How does a "thing" have a "relationship" with anything else if it does not exist? How can a relationship exist unless there are at least two separate things? Are you now saying that space and time are two separate things? I thought you said they could not be separated, and that they were one thing --->spacetime. Half your problem JB is reading comprehension. I said time exists, not as an entity. By an "entity" I mean a physical existence. Time has no substance. Time is an idea. If we can agree that ideas "exist" (in the mind) then we can agree that time exists (also in the mind.) Does Love exist? Does fear exist? Do ideas and memories exist? If we agree that these things "exist" then we can agree that time also exists in the same manner. Does an inch and a mile exist? (measurments) or are they mental concepts? BTW: I do NOT have "reading comprehension." If you can write a proper sentence, I can read and comprehend it. The problem is not my reading comprehension. The problem is the English language applies many different meanings and interpretations to a single word. Do you agree or disagree that saying, "the faster you move through space, the slower you move through time" denotes a relationship between time, space and matter? The above statement assumes something not in evidence. That is, that anything "moves through time." No, I do not and cannot agree with that statement. It also assumes that we "move through space." In a dream world, when you are having a dream and you are walking down a road... are you moving through space? No, you are not. You only believe you are. Your mind or brain is projecting the illusion of space. In this world, of course you might say that "space is real" but in your dream world you will say that space is not real. What is the difference? Duration of the projection? Agreement? Integrity? Einstein said that this world is an illusion, but it is a persistent one. What do you think he meant by that? There is no difference between how you perceive spacetime in your dreams than how you perceive spacetime in this world. It is possible that neither "exist" as we think they do, except that we have decided they do. Also if I said the faster you eat mexican, the sooner you visit the restroom denotes a relationship without making any claim about the independence of your bowels and you and mexican. What you are talking about is not time, but causal action which only moves in a single direction. Because cause and effect only moves in one direction, we perceive that as "time" and our measurement of time is completely dependent on this process where we observe and experience the changes taking place when cause and effect are in action, which is constant. Not sure why I try . . . you CANT understand. What I don't understand is why you can't understand.

prashant01 Joined Wed 05/06/09 Posts: 14148	Fri 11/02/12 08:33 AM
Your statement about evidence is completely wrong. That's why I said..time is such a strong illusion... If you want to learn plenty of educational links were posted which will help you understand. I am a physicist, and computer science major. It took me months to understand special relativity. I am NOT going to sit here and try to help you through that same process. What I have done is shown you were you can get the material, and presented a few different ways for you to explore the history of the idea and how it has been shown to be true. If you were riding on the back of a satalite spinning around the earth at .99 % the speed of light, after 4 years of this you would be 4 years older, but everyone you knew and loved who were still on earth NOT traveling at .99% the speed of light would be something like 80 years older and long since dead. This relationship between time, space, and matter is a FACT. You can take some time and learn about it, or you can continue to assert it cannot be so. Dude, After 4 years of 'that' I would be 4 years older even if I stay on earth,right? Why would other get 80 years older in just 4 years?? While giving this example of spinning around the earth,you haven't bothered about specifying the direction which is very important consideration if you are talking about relative speed,isn't that? Neither age of something nor its physical state would change DUE TO TIME ,no matter whether the object is steady or revolving anywhere & anyhow in the space. As we are measuring time in days,years on earth as per its rotation & revolution; definitely our counting will differ under those circumstances but time wouldn't change. Actually,there is nothing about it which would change,it do not exist.Just illusion in different form,nothing else. BTW..it seems you are thinking about time only w.r.t earth & its revolution or at most sun & the speed of sunlight,think universally man,how about speed of light emitted by other suns in the universe,are we knowing the speed & form of those lights? aren't those affecting time? don't time matter there?

massagetrade Joined Thu 02/22/07 Posts: 8505	Fri 11/02/12 02:50 PM
Your statement about evidence is completely wrong. That's why I said..time is such a strong illusion... If you want to learn plenty of educational links were posted which will help you understand. I am a physicist, and computer science major. It took me months to understand special relativity. I am NOT going to sit here and try to help you through that same process. What I have done is shown you were you can get the material, and presented a few different ways for you to explore the history of the idea and how it has been shown to be true. If you were riding on the back of a satalite spinning around the earth at .99 % the speed of light, after 4 years of this you would be 4 years older, but everyone you knew and loved who were still on earth NOT traveling at .99% the speed of light would be something like 80 years older and long since dead. This relationship between time, space, and matter is a FACT. You can take some time and learn about it, or you can continue to assert it cannot be so. Dude, After 4 years of 'that' I would be 4 years older even if I stay on earth,right? Why would other get 80 years older in just 4 years?? While giving this example of spinning around the earth,you haven't bothered about specifying the direction which is very important consideration if you are talking about relative speed,isn't that? Neither age of something nor its physical state would change DUE TO TIME ,no matter whether the object is steady or revolving anywhere & anyhow in the space. As we are measuring time in days,years on earth as per its rotation & revolution; definitely our counting will differ under those circumstances but time wouldn't change. Actually,there is nothing about it which would change,it do not exist.Just illusion in different form,nothing else. BTW..it seems you are thinking about time only w.r.t earth & its revolution or at most sun & the speed of sunlight,think universally man,how about speed of light emitted by other suns in the universe,are we knowing the speed & form of those lights? aren't those affecting time? don't time matter there? I'm not meaning to be insulting, but its clear that you don't even know the most basic things about relativity. Have you tried reading any books on it?

prashant01 Joined Wed 05/06/09 Posts: 14148	Sat 11/03/12 06:43 AM Edited by prashant01 on Sat 11/03/12 07:43 AM
I'm not meaning to be insulting, but its clear that you don't even know the most basic things about relativity. Have you tried reading any books on it? Why do u need to clarify first,if you don't mean to insult??? Is that your usual style? Anyway,that will be off topic to argue more,so keep your point to topic & not to any ones knowledge & beliefs.I mean, how much do I know or what do I read isn't the topic. If you are not able to answer my /others questions in topic...you may just stay cool and if you think you know so much about relativity & time,then instead of commenting otherwise, you should straight way answer my simple query regarding the statements that you too are supporting Read again this statement: after 4 years of this you would be 4 years older, My question is so simple & direct...wouldn't I be 4 years older after 4 years even if I stay on earth?? , but everyone you knew and loved who were still on earth NOT traveling at .99% the speed of light would be something like 80 years older and long since dead. Why will they grow 80 YEARS older in 4 YEARS? Can you justify the formula 1 YEAR = 20 YEARS?? Earth year is a time period needed for earth to complete one revolution around the sun.As stated in the above example,If a satellite is revolving around earth; wouldn't it too complete just one revolution around the sun during a earth year? My main concern is,why are you relating time only with the speed of sun light,earth's rotation & revolution? Is time that much dependent of these entities? If yes,then how can you justify it's separate existence? Why are you not considering other galaxies & the movements,changes happening in rest of the space? isn't anything happening there by time? The trouble is you think you have time - Gautam Buddha.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Sat 11/03/12 09:11 AM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Sat 11/03/12 09:17 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation In the theory of relativity, time dilation is an actual difference of elapsed time between two events as measured by observers either moving relative to each other or differently situated from gravitational masses. An accurate clock at rest with respect to one observer may be measured to tick at a different rate when compared to a second observer's own equally accurate clocks. This effect arises neither from technical aspects of the clocks nor from the fact that signals need time to propagate, but from the nature of spacetime itself. To determine Time Dilation.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 11/03/12 11:01 AM Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 11/03/12 11:02 AM
What you are making it "relative" to is earth time. (our perception of time.) Every object and indeed every individual has its very own system of spacetime. That is why it is ridiculous to use these kinds of examples: If you were riding on the back of a satalite spinning around the earth at .99 % the speed of light, after 4 years of this you would be 4 years older, but everyone you knew and loved who were still on earth NOT traveling at .99% the speed of light would be something like 80 years older and long since dead. 1. No one could be traveling around the earth at .99% the speed of light. The point you are attempting to make is that time (as we measure it) is relative to the speed of light, relative to us (our spacetime. Mankind makes statements that are always relative to their perspective and how they are able to observe reality. Has it ever never dawned on them that their perception is not 100%. In fact, what humans can observe of REALITY is just a tiny bit of information. They think that the appearance of something is FACT because they say so. Everything, revolves around what they observe and perceive and they call these observations "facts."