Topic: 20 reasons NOT to attack Iran
HotRodDeluxe's photo
Tue 08/28/12 08:31 PM

The above is clearly imperialism if thats what you want to call it. However covert operations is the proper term used today. Any which way, its international gangsterism, if one does not understand that, then perhaps another subject is better suited for dialogue, as this one seems well above comprhension to many. Especially the masses hooked on reality tv.


It's just the hyperbole, I tend to use more neutral language-a product of my history and political studies. The US is not a 'real' imperial power and it bears little resemblance to any historical empire. I'm sure a superficial corellation could be made, but in essence, it would be hyperbole. The US has a seat on the Security Council and various international commitments are a part of the responsibility of that position-I'm sure you're aware of this.

Ras427's photo
Tue 08/28/12 08:32 PM

No country spreads hate more consistently than Iran.


Perhaps.... But, not one country has spreads WAR as much as good ol USA huh?




1947-49 - U.S. helps command extreme-right Greece party in Civil War.
Death toll: about 70,000 contributed by US-backed forces

1948-54 - CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion in Philippines.
Death toll: about 11,000

1950 - Independence movement crushed in Ponce, Puerto Rico
Death toll: conservative historians estimated about 8,000 peasants

1950-53 - Korean War
Death toll: about 1,776,000

1952 - CIA overthrows Democracy in Iran, installs Shah
Death toll: about 20,000

1954 - CIA directs invasion of Guatemala after new Democracy there nationalized U.S.-occupied lands
Death toll: about 140,000 missing and dead

1958 - In Lebanon, marine occupation against rebels
Death toll: about 2,000

1960-75+ - Vietnam War including Cambodia and Laos
Death toll: about 4,502,000 including civilians and resulting famines (conservative estimates)

1961 - Cuba's Bay of Pigs Invasion fails
Death toll: about 4,000

1963 - In Iraq, CIA organizes coup against President and agrees to back formerly exiled Saddam
Death toll: about 7,000 including civilians

1964 - In Panama, troops kill protesters against US-owned canal
Death toll: about 1,000

1965 - CIA assists Indonesian coup
Death toll: about 900,000

1966 - Troops and bombers threaten pro-communist parties in Dominican Republic
Death toll: about 3,000

1966-96 - Green berets in Guatemala against rebels, US backs pro-American forces in country until 1996
Death toll: about 200,000

1970 - Directs marine invasion of Oman
Death toll: about 2,000

1973 - CIA directs coup to oust elected Marxist president in Chile
Death toll: 30,000... 3,000 later disappeared under US-installed dictator

1976-92 - CIA assists South-African rebels in Angola
Death toll: median estimate at 550,000

1981-90 - CIA directs Contra invasions in Nicaragua
Death toll: median estimate at 30,000

1982-84 - Marines expel Lebanese rebels, aided by Israel
Death toll: 40,000

1987-88 - US intervenes for Iraq against Iran
Death toll: about 150,000 during time-frame, 100,000 during Desert Storm, 350,000 from resulting famine

1989 - US invades to oust CIA-installed Panamanian government gone rouge
Death toll: 2,000

1992-94 - US-led occupation of Somalia during civil war
Death toll: 50,000 in combat, 300,000 by starvation

2001+ - US Occupies Afghanistan
Death toll: 120,000 including civilians and combatants and resulting Opium Wars

2003+ - Iraqi War
Death toll: 665,000 also by starvation, displacement


TOTAL: 10,431,000



ill
[/ quo te] the above is foreign affairs.

HotRodDeluxe's photo
Tue 08/28/12 08:33 PM
im sure your post has a point, although obviousely pointless, im sure you will expound. More then foreign affairs, I understand power and its effect. Those dates listed above is foreign affairs, gangsterism is foreign affairs. They are foreign, and affairs of self interests backed by military. Quite simple if one would remove the blinders.


Whatever, Dude. drinker

Ras427's photo
Tue 08/28/12 08:35 PM


The above is clearly imperialism if thats what you want to call it. However covert operations is the proper term used today. Any which way, its international gangsterism, if one does not understand that, then perhaps another subject is better suited for dialogue, as this one seems well above comprhension to many. Especially the masses hooked on reality tv.


It's just the hyperbole, I tend to use more neutral language-a product of my history and political studies. The US is not a 'real' imperial power and it bears little resemblance to any historical empire. I'm sure a superficial corellation could be made, but in essence, it would be hyperbole. The US has a seat on the Security Council and various international commitments are a part of the responsibility of that position-I'm sure you're aware of this.
SECURITY IS THE MAIN WORD HERE, IT MEANS MILITARY. THAT IS OUR COMMITTMENT.

HotRodDeluxe's photo
Tue 08/28/12 08:36 PM



The above is clearly imperialism if thats what you want to call it. However covert operations is the proper term used today. Any which way, its international gangsterism, if one does not understand that, then perhaps another subject is better suited for dialogue, as this one seems well above comprhension to many. Especially the masses hooked on reality tv.


It's just the hyperbole, I tend to use more neutral language-a product of my history and political studies. The US is not a 'real' imperial power and it bears little resemblance to any historical empire. I'm sure a superficial corellation could be made, but in essence, it would be hyperbole. The US has a seat on the Security Council and various international commitments are a part of the responsibility of that position-I'm sure you're aware of this.
SECURITY IS THE MAIN WORD HERE, IT MEANS MILITARY. THAT IS OUR COMMITTMENT.


We agree then, what's your problem?

Ras427's photo
Tue 08/28/12 08:36 PM

im sure your post has a point, although obviousely pointless, im sure you will expound. More then foreign affairs, I understand power and its effect. Those dates listed above is foreign affairs, gangsterism is foreign affairs. They are foreign, and affairs of self interests backed by military. Quite simple if one would remove the blinders.


Whatever, Dude. drinker
oh well, better than nothing.

Ras427's photo
Tue 08/28/12 09:12 PM
Edited by Ras427 on Tue 08/28/12 09:13 PM
An example of our committment to the world as an empire, as you said, like no other in the past. First, we launch a media blitz to our own population. Five years of constant media bombardment on a targeted country. After several years, we expand the media blitz abroad, wher our crime mates will expand the media coverage on said target. After several years of mentaly seasoning the distracted mindless, we then will make several cinematic productions to entertain and further subliminaly convince you the the targeted country is indeed an enemy of your freedom and is a savage waiting to devour your way of life. After the masses are well seasoned, we approach the targeted country and offer them some aide, after our international banking friensds grsnt you a loan with exuberant interests rates, the targeted country will find themselfs in deeper debt. Not a problem, we then ask our banking buddies to offer the country debt reduction, that will ease the presure slightly, but only enough that that targeted country still is in deir straits, so we ask our banking buddies to grant you debt forgiveness, however, there is a price to pay, we now require that you crde partial ownership to several deposits of raw materials, we will refine them the sell them back to said country, a little expensive but hey, we have forgiven your debt. Now that we refine your raw material and sell them back to you, we now require full access to said deposits of gold, diamonds, uranium, ore ,natural gas deposits. When said country refuses, well then your offsetted debt must be paid in full. At this point most impoverished African nations concede and cooperate. If they go to the security councle, so, we are the security councle with veto power. When said targeted country decides not to cooperate, well then our special forces go to work, your electrical grids start causing blackouts, your water starts smelling foul, your streams fish look funny and die. A bomb destroyed a bridge that transport goods, your trains suddenly stop working properly. Then I begin to arm opposition groups with guns and incriminating data about said countries goverment, when civil unrest begins, we will arm and aide your opposition with intelligence, and fund their new noble revolution. After we topple the goverment we then will support the winner and provide the same conditions the former ungratefull goverment refused to abide by. If said goverment beats all my attempts, then we pull out the terrorist card, invade your country and place a goverment more to our line of thinking. That is imperialism, and our form of democracy. All the above are well documented. Yes we are an empire. Get used to it while it lasts. FOREIGN AFFAIRS.

HotRodDeluxe's photo
Tue 08/28/12 09:44 PM
noway huh

Ras427's photo
Tue 08/28/12 09:59 PM
pitchfork

noway huh

s1owhand's photo
Wed 08/29/12 01:38 AM
whoa

laugh

s1owhand's photo
Wed 08/29/12 01:56 AM
Edited by s1owhand on Wed 08/29/12 02:55 AM
20 reasons to not attack Iran.

20 - Iran has been conquered by Iraq
19 - Iran has become the 51st state of the US
18 - Ahmadinejad said he takes it all back
17 - Stuxnet2 succeeded at blowing up the enrichment cetrifuges
16 - Iranian nuclear scientists retired and vacationing on the Riviera
15 - Hezbollah manufacturing plant blew up
14 - Govt opposition brought back the Shah
13 - Starving Iranians ate the uranium
12 - New green nuclear powered cars
11 - UN Security Council changed its mind
10 - Everybody is too skeered scared
9 - The mullahs told us it is against the law
8 - Iran sold their uranium to the Taliban
7 - The Shahab missiles turned out to be made of cardboard
6 - Revolutionary Guard traded all the uranium for Yemeni gay hookers
5 - Iran says their intentions are purely peaceful
4 - Turns out it was all a gigantic nuclear practical joke
3 - N Korea threatening devastating retaliation
2 - Revelation from God
1 - Natanz and other facilities already collapsed smoking holes

HotRodDeluxe's photo
Wed 08/29/12 02:55 AM

20 reasons to not attack Iran.

20 - Iran has been conquered by Iraq
19 - Iran has become the 51st state of the US
18 - Ahmadinejad said he takes it all back
17 - Stuxnet2 succeeded at blowing up the enrichment cetrifuges
16 - Iranian nuclear scientists retired and vacationing on the Riviera
15 - Hezbollah manufacturing plant blew up
14 - Govt opposition brought back the Shah
13 - Starving Iranians ate the uranium
12 - New green nuclear powered cars
11 - UN Security Council changed its mind
10 - Everybody is too skeered scared
9 - The mullahs told us it is against the law
8 - Iran sold their uranium to the Taliban
7 - The Shahab missiles turned out to be made of cardboard
6 - Revolutionary Guard traded all the uranium for Yemeni gay hookers
5 - Russia stole their reactors
4 - Turns out it was all a gigantic nuclear practical joke
3 - N Korea threatening devastating retaliation
2 - Revelation from God
1 - Natanz and other facilities already a collapsed smoking hole


No. 6 rofl

no photo
Wed 08/29/12 07:05 AM

An example of our committment to the world as an empire, as you said, like no other in the past. First, we launch a media blitz to our own population. Five years of constant media bombardment on a targeted country. After several years, we expand the media blitz abroad, wher our crime mates will expand the media coverage on said target. After several years of mentaly seasoning the distracted mindless, we then will make several cinematic productions to entertain and further subliminaly convince you the the targeted country is indeed an enemy of your freedom and is a savage waiting to devour your way of life. After the masses are well seasoned, we approach the targeted country and offer them some aide, after our international banking friensds grsnt you a loan with exuberant interests rates, the targeted country will find themselfs in deeper debt. Not a problem, we then ask our banking buddies to offer the country debt reduction, that will ease the presure slightly, but only enough that that targeted country still is in deir straits, so we ask our banking buddies to grant you debt forgiveness, however, there is a price to pay, we now require that you crde partial ownership to several deposits of raw materials, we will refine them the sell them back to said country, a little expensive but hey, we have forgiven your debt. Now that we refine your raw material and sell them back to you, we now require full access to said deposits of gold, diamonds, uranium, ore ,natural gas deposits. When said country refuses, well then your offsetted debt must be paid in full. At this point most impoverished African nations concede and cooperate. If they go to the security councle, so, we are the security councle with veto power. When said targeted country decides not to cooperate, well then our special forces go to work, your electrical grids start causing blackouts, your water starts smelling foul, your streams fish look funny and die. A bomb destroyed a bridge that transport goods, your trains suddenly stop working properly. Then I begin to arm opposition groups with guns and incriminating data about said countries goverment, when civil unrest begins, we will arm and aide your opposition with intelligence, and fund their new noble revolution. After we topple the goverment we then will support the winner and provide the same conditions the former ungratefull goverment refused to abide by. If said goverment beats all my attempts, then we pull out the terrorist card, invade your country and place a goverment more to our line of thinking. That is imperialism, and our form of democracy. All the above are well documented. Yes we are an empire. Get used to it while it lasts. FOREIGN AFFAIRS.


No Kidding! What really confuses me is why so much North American Immigration of ME descent? They're building whole Islamic neighborhoods up here... We have a French Language/separation agenda in the works in Canada and where I live... It's been going on for 30 years... They're importing "votes"... Islamic ones! They don't mesh with our population and make unrealistic demands... If war breaks out, they're in our friggin back yards! Now we're gonna lob bombs into their homeland? scared

I dunno, this taking over the Middle east wasn't very well thought out I don't think.

no photo
Wed 08/29/12 07:10 AM



One reason to strike Iran's nuclear facilities...

... no other choice.


Unfortunatly, countries who are armed to the teeth think this way... shame.

90 days... everyday is 1% closer to an attack...

God help us!


I'll place a bet against the 'apocalypse' happening if you're interested?


I don't believe in putting "sportsmans" bets on death and destruction... So no! But it isn't looking very good right now is it? So you don't think this is even possible? Israel attacking? surprised

God help us!

no photo
Wed 08/29/12 07:18 AM
10 - Everybody is too skeered scared



laugh


Where exactly do you live Slowhand? Just curious.
Your "armchair" battle tactics are impressive.
You wouldn't be completely sheltered from a North American retaliation strike now would you??? slaphead

s1owhand's photo
Wed 08/29/12 09:15 AM
Edited by s1owhand on Wed 08/29/12 09:15 AM

10 - Everybody is too skeered scared



laugh


Where exactly do you live Slowhand? Just curious.
Your "armchair" battle tactics are impressive.
You wouldn't be completely sheltered from a North American retaliation strike now would you??? slaphead


laugh

Well thank you! I am glad to hear that you like my arguments.

laugh blushing

I live in a free and pluralistic society where people are free to
practice whatever religion they choose and where people have freedom
of speech. I cherish these freedoms but none more so than freedom
of fear of radical Islamic persecution and terrorism.

I expect that when someone like Iran threatens my country with
annihilation, violates their NPT commitments and accelerates
uranium enrichment activities that my country will protect us by
intervention in whatever way necessary to protect us.

And in the case of Iran it means no nukes for Khamenei and
Ahmadinejad and all the rest of the world agrees that this terrorist
supporting radical Islamic thugocracy must never get even close
to nuclear weapons.

This makes the strategy very very simple - easy in fact.
Iran has a choice to make - comply with the international consensus
and disarm or get disarmed by the international community by force.

Now Iran must choose.

no photo
Wed 08/29/12 10:01 AM

comply with the international consensus
and disarm or get disarmed by the international community by force.


But But they're not armed surprised rofl
and speak for yourselves, we're not sending one Canadian made slingshot to your cause mate! laugh

Ok well... Since things aren't going Israels way ATM...
We should prepare for the worst I supposed...

So. "Gen. lazyboy" Have you chosen your flight plan yet?
and how will you refuel in midair.... 3 times? I mean, threaten all you want but you know you can't do squat without good ol USA laugh

s1owhand's photo
Wed 08/29/12 10:18 AM


comply with the international consensus
and disarm or get disarmed by the international community by force.


But But they're not armed surprised rofl



Tell that to the victims of the terrorist attacks carried out with
Iranian weapons and support.

laugh

Of course EVERYONE is most concerned about their nuclear enrichment
program in fortified bunkers which has no other purpose than nuclear
arms development. For some reason these "peaceful" activities needed
to be placed in underground bunkers!

rofl

Actually, Canada is right up there with the US and the rest of the
civilized world in preventing Iran from nuclear weapons development
activities....

laugh

From the Council of Foreign Relations Backgrounder on
The Lengthening List of Iran Sanctions

Authors: Toni Johnson, Deputy Editor, and Greg Bruno July 2012

"International efforts to squeeze Iran economically are solidifying. In July 2010, Canada banned new investment (AP) in Iran's oil and gas industries. European allies have also implemented their own sanctions, and although historically these states have had less of an appetite for punitive measures, recent actions have been tougher. For much of the 1990s, while Washington imposed unilateral sanctions, EU countries maintained a policy of "critical dialogue" with Iran. But as Iran grew increasingly defiant on the nuclear front, European partners turned up the heat (PDF), Katzman of the Congressional Research Service notes. In June 2008, the EU froze the assets of nearly forty individuals and entities doing business with Bank Melli, Iran's largest bank; Western officials have accused Bank Melli of supporting Iran's nuclear and missile programs. Japan and the EU have also placed restrictions on international lending to Iran, which, Katzman writes, "represents a narrowing of past differences between the United States and its allies on this issue."
Navigating the Road Ahead

Experts are divided on the effectiveness of sanctions as a tool to force rogue states to abandon their weapons programs. In the cases of Libya and Iraq, many analysts note the role economic sanctions had in inhibiting the development of weapons programs (though in the case of Iraq, the full extent of their effectiveness was not known until after the U.S.-led invasion of 2003).

Washington hopes that squeezing Iran's economy will pressure the country's leadership to alter course on its nuclear program. U.S. officials in early 2012 said sanctions targeting financial transactions (Reuters) were beginning to have an economic effect. News reports show that the cost of doing business with Iran has become so onerous that many firms are dropping their transactions (Bloomberg) entirely. Iranian officials have continued to dismiss sanctions (FNA) as ineffective, but some have also said lifting them should be a major point of new talks. In April and May 2012, Iran met with the permanent members of the UN Security Council and Germany (P5+1) to discuss its nuclear program. However, those talks have yielded little movement on either side.

Whether these sanctions will deter the nuclear program remains up for debate. "After decades of struggling under punitive financial measures, Iran has persisted with its objectionable policies ranging from terrorism to proliferation of weapons of mass destruction," write CFR's Ray Takeyh and Suzanne Maloney of the Brookings Institution. "All this suggests that ideological regimes that put a premium on their political priorities and which are seemingly insensitive to the mounting costs of their belligerence may not be suitable candidates for the type of cost-benefit analysis that sanctions diplomacy invites."

The Bipartisan Policy Center recommends a multi-pronged approach, including diplomacy, sanctions, and visible preparation of a "military option of last resort." Still, Takeyh notes in an April 2012 interview that both ending economic sanctions and forestalling a military strike were part of the reason for resuming negotiations.


no photo
Wed 08/29/12 10:30 AM
Yea ever since our Prime Minister got voted in, He turned us from peacekeeping missions to full on aggressors. You guess it

Prime Ministers wife is Jewish explode

Sanctions yes... Military strikes on Iran... Deff NO!
Even Canadians aren't that stoopid laugh

s1owhand's photo
Wed 08/29/12 10:32 AM
Edited by s1owhand on Wed 08/29/12 10:34 AM



comply with the international consensus
and disarm or get disarmed by the international community by force.


But But they're not armed surprised rofl



Tell that to the victims of the terrorist attacks carried out with
Iranian weapons and support.

laugh

Of course EVERYONE is most concerned about their nuclear enrichment
program in fortified bunkers which has no other purpose than nuclear
arms development. For some reason these "peaceful" activities needed
to be placed in underground bunkers!

rofl

Actually, Canada is right up there with the US and the rest of the
civilized world in preventing Iran from nuclear weapons development
activities....

laugh

From the Council of Foreign Relations Backgrounder on
The Lengthening List of Iran Sanctions

Authors: Toni Johnson, Deputy Editor, and Greg Bruno July 2012

"International efforts to squeeze Iran economically are solidifying. In July 2010, Canada banned new investment (AP) in Iran's oil and gas industries. European allies have also implemented their own sanctions, and although historically these states have had less of an appetite for punitive measures, recent actions have been tougher. For much of the 1990s, while Washington imposed unilateral sanctions, EU countries maintained a policy of "critical dialogue" with Iran. But as Iran grew increasingly defiant on the nuclear front, European partners turned up the heat (PDF), Katzman of the Congressional Research Service notes. In June 2008, the EU froze the assets of nearly forty individuals and entities doing business with Bank Melli, Iran's largest bank; Western officials have accused Bank Melli of supporting Iran's nuclear and missile programs. Japan and the EU have also placed restrictions on international lending to Iran, which, Katzman writes, "represents a narrowing of past differences between the United States and its allies on this issue."
Navigating the Road Ahead

Experts are divided on the effectiveness of sanctions as a tool to force rogue states to abandon their weapons programs. In the cases of Libya and Iraq, many analysts note the role economic sanctions had in inhibiting the development of weapons programs (though in the case of Iraq, the full extent of their effectiveness was not known until after the U.S.-led invasion of 2003).

Washington hopes that squeezing Iran's economy will pressure the country's leadership to alter course on its nuclear program. U.S. officials in early 2012 said sanctions targeting financial transactions (Reuters) were beginning to have an economic effect. News reports show that the cost of doing business with Iran has become so onerous that many firms are dropping their transactions (Bloomberg) entirely. Iranian officials have continued to dismiss sanctions (FNA) as ineffective, but some have also said lifting them should be a major point of new talks. In April and May 2012, Iran met with the permanent members of the UN Security Council and Germany (P5+1) to discuss its nuclear program. However, those talks have yielded little movement on either side.

Whether these sanctions will deter the nuclear program remains up for debate. "After decades of struggling under punitive financial measures, Iran has persisted with its objectionable policies ranging from terrorism to proliferation of weapons of mass destruction," write CFR's Ray Takeyh and Suzanne Maloney of the Brookings Institution. "All this suggests that ideological regimes that put a premium on their political priorities and which are seemingly insensitive to the mounting costs of their belligerence may not be suitable candidates for the type of cost-benefit analysis that sanctions diplomacy invites."

The Bipartisan Policy Center recommends a multi-pronged approach, including diplomacy, sanctions, and visible preparation of a "military option of last resort." Still, Takeyh notes in an April 2012 interview that both ending economic sanctions and forestalling a military strike were part of the reason for resuming negotiations.





Yea ever since our Prime Minister got voted in, He turned us from peacekeeping missions to full on aggressors. You guess it

Prime Ministers wife is Jewish explode

Sanctions yes... Military strikes on Iran... Deff NO!
Even Canadians aren't that stoopid laugh


Nice.
All Iran has to do of course is honor its NPT commitments and end
enrichment activities - crisis averted. Iran says their only
interest is in peaceful activities. Why don't they prove it?

laugh