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Topic: Grow Up, Ron Paul
Bestinshow's photo
Sat 01/14/12 06:57 AM
Like many other little American kids, all I wanted to do was eat junk food, play video games and goof around with my friends. I didn't like being made to go to school, going to bed at 9 PM, eating vegetables, doing homework after school, or taking out the garbage. And like most other little kids who don't like abiding by the rules of their parents, I sometimes fantasized about what it would be like to run away from home. But when I packed my backpack full of clothes and individually-wrapped packs of peanut butter crackers from the pantry, I could never go through with my plan. I knew if I ran away, I'd be hungry, cold, lost, and eventually found by the police and returned home.

Libertarian views of government regulation are very similar to how the 6 year-old views the authority exerted by their parents. Ron Paul's every-individual-for-themselves rhetoric appeals to young, radical libertarians with simplistic viewpoints of authority, and an ignorance of why government exists in the first place.

In Ron Paul's ideal America, safety regulations imposed on employers by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration would be a thing of the past. Clean air and water regulations imposed by the Environmental Protection Agency would be no more. Taxpayers would save money since Ron Paul would abolish the Department of Education and cut the Food & Drug Administration budget by 40%. Employers would save money by paying workers as little as they wish, since Ron Paul would abolish the Davis-Bacon Act. Corporate giants would be free to monopolize markets, since Ron Paul opposes federal antitrust legislation. And employees would no longer be required to pay into Social Security.

So what would this libertarian utopia look like, if Ron Paul were elected and followed through on his campaign promises?


-Families grieving for loved ones lost due to Massey Energy's negligence in the Upper Big Branch coal mine explosion would have to accept that their relatives were casualties of the invisible hand of the unfettered free market. And Massey would've gotten off scot-free for polluting Martin County, Kentucky's drinking water supply with 300 million gallons of coal slurry.
-Millions of college students dependent on Pell grants would be forced to move back home and work minimum-wage jobs, no longer financially able to further their education. Oh wait-- what minimum wage?

-Food recalls would be a regular occurrence when tainted meat and vegetables hit supermarket shelves and cause record outbreaks of e-coli. And risky new drugs will avoid FDA tests and hit the express lane to the pharmacy, endangering the health of millions.

-Too-big-to-fail banks like Wells Fargo, Citi, Chase and Bank of America would be allowed to merge and/or buy out their competitors, as would oil giants like ExxonMobil, and Chevron, as would cell service providers like AT&T and Verizon.

-The Social Security trust fund would become insolvent, making retirement that much harder for those who paid into it all their lives.


Ron Paul and his right-libertarian ideology does espouse a new kind of freedom, just as rebellious children who fantasize about running away from home dream of a new kind of freedom. But as much as we may have rebelled against our parents as little kids, we eventually matured and realized that the rules and regulations our parents imposed on us were meant so we'd grow up to be responsible, functioning adults in society.
An unregulated little kid free to eat junk food and play video games all day won't ever learn the responsibilities of adulthood. And an unregulated society where every individual is out for themselves will quickly collapse.
(c) 2012 Carl Gibson is a spokesman and organizer for US Uncut, a nonviolent, creative direct-action movement to stop budget cuts by getting corporations to pay their fair share of taxes. He graduated from Morehead State University in 2009 with a B.A. in Journalism before starting the first US Uncut group in Jackson, Mississippi, in February of 2011. Since then, over 20,000 US Uncut activists have carried out more than 300 actions in over 100 cities nationwide. You may contact Carl at usuncut@gmail.com.


http://www.issuesandalibis.org/


Sojourning_Soul's photo
Sat 01/14/12 07:51 AM
Edited by Sojourning_Soul on Sat 01/14/12 07:53 AM
As, by this definition, the founding fathers were apparently equivilent to 6 year old mentalities, they seem to have written a document referred to as "the greatest piece of law and literature ever written", and having lasted and been accepted, and respected as sound principle for 200 years.......

Freedom has a price! To think that any gov't can write a law, create an environment that fits all, or works for everyone, is ludacrous.

When the gov't gains control of any institution, it is doomed to failure. The trouble is, it is the people who are the test subjects, not the institutions who manage them!

I at 60 am proud to say "growing up" did not remove my desire to be free, to make my own choices! My rebel nature is what incites my desire to seek a truth, to fight for that liberty and oppose any injustice against it.

I would rather live on my feet than die on my belly!

Peccy's photo
Sat 01/14/12 08:03 AM

As, by this definition, the founding fathers were apparently equivilent to 6 year old mentalities, they seem to have written a document referred to as "the greatest piece of law and literature ever written", and having lasted and been accepted, and respected as sound principle for 200 years.......

Freedom has a price! To think that any gov't can write a law, create an environment that fits all, or works for everyone, is ludacrous.

When the gov't gains control of any institution, it is doomed to failure. The trouble is, it is the people who are the test subjects, not the institutions who manage them!

I at 60 am proud to say "growing up" did not remove my desire to be free, to make my own choices! My rebel nature is what incites my desire to seek a truth, to fight for that liberty and oppose any injustice against it.

I would rather live on my feet than die on my belly!
drinker :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: drinker Well said!

Bestinshow's photo
Sat 01/14/12 08:15 AM

As, by this definition, the founding fathers were apparently equivilent to 6 year old mentalities, they seem to have written a document referred to as "the greatest piece of law and literature ever written", and having lasted and been accepted, and respected as sound principle for 200 years.......

Freedom has a price! To think that any gov't can write a law, create an environment that fits all, or works for everyone, is ludacrous.

When the gov't gains control of any institution, it is doomed to failure. The trouble is, it is the people who are the test subjects, not the institutions who manage them!

I at 60 am proud to say "growing up" did not remove my desire to be free, to make my own choices! My rebel nature is what incites my desire to seek a truth, to fight for that liberty and oppose any injustice against it.

I would rather live on my feet than die on my belly!
Dont get me wrong I love what Dr. Paul says about takeing down the fed and the creeping police state but I cant help but wonder who would plow the roads if he fullfills his campaign promises.

You wont be free when the rich and powerfull have no checks or balances you will be a serf.

The country has changed greatly since the days of the founding fathers a man cannot simply get on a horse ride west and stake a claim for farmland and sustain himself and a family.

We live in a society like it or not and a future with unregulated capitalism will be bleak for the 99%.

I do not like the world I envision under libertarianism.

Ron Paul will never be elected I hate to burt your bubble but if you take away the fantasy that he will take down the fed and declaw the police state what do you have left?

He wont be able to do either by the way.

The rich and powerfull will be free to posion your wells with fracking exploit your children and turn the starveing masses into serfs. They will be free to add cheap harmfull addatives to the allready tainted food supply etc etc etc.

You wont stand a chance against unregulated big business.

msharmony's photo
Sat 01/14/12 08:21 AM
Edited by msharmony on Sat 01/14/12 08:21 AM


As, by this definition, the founding fathers were apparently equivilent to 6 year old mentalities, they seem to have written a document referred to as "the greatest piece of law and literature ever written", and having lasted and been accepted, and respected as sound principle for 200 years.......

Freedom has a price! To think that any gov't can write a law, create an environment that fits all, or works for everyone, is ludacrous.

When the gov't gains control of any institution, it is doomed to failure. The trouble is, it is the people who are the test subjects, not the institutions who manage them!

I at 60 am proud to say "growing up" did not remove my desire to be free, to make my own choices! My rebel nature is what incites my desire to seek a truth, to fight for that liberty and oppose any injustice against it.

I would rather live on my feet than die on my belly!
Dont get me wrong I love what Dr. Paul says about takeing down the fed and the creeping police state but I cant help but wonder who would plow the roads if he fullfills his campaign promises.

You wont be free when the rich and powerfull have no checks or balances you will be a serf.

The country has changed greatly since the days of the founding fathers a man cannot simply get on a horse ride west and stake a claim for farmland and sustain himself and a family.

We live in a society like it or not and a future with unregulated capitalism will be bleak for the 99%.

I do not like the world I envision under libertarianism.

Ron Paul will never be elected I hate to burt your bubble but if you take away the fantasy that he will take down the fed and declaw the police state what do you have left?

He wont be able to do either by the way.

The rich and powerfull will be free to posion your wells with fracking exploit your children and turn the starveing masses into serfs. They will be free to add cheap harmfull addatives to the allready tainted food supply etc etc etc.

You wont stand a chance against unregulated big business.




Here Here:banana: :banana:

and I will add to you,

the education level and entitlement attitude of the majority of americans makes me kind of fearful of a country where the private citizens start running things,,,,

Conrad_73's photo
Sat 01/14/12 08:22 AM


As, by this definition, the founding fathers were apparently equivilent to 6 year old mentalities, they seem to have written a document referred to as "the greatest piece of law and literature ever written", and having lasted and been accepted, and respected as sound principle for 200 years.......

Freedom has a price! To think that any gov't can write a law, create an environment that fits all, or works for everyone, is ludacrous.

When the gov't gains control of any institution, it is doomed to failure. The trouble is, it is the people who are the test subjects, not the institutions who manage them!

I at 60 am proud to say "growing up" did not remove my desire to be free, to make my own choices! My rebel nature is what incites my desire to seek a truth, to fight for that liberty and oppose any injustice against it.

I would rather live on my feet than die on my belly!
Dont get me wrong I love what Dr. Paul says about takeing down the fed and the creeping police state but I cant help but wonder who would plow the roads if he fullfills his campaign promises.

You wont be free when the rich and powerfull have no checks or balances you will be a serf.

The country has changed greatly since the days of the founding fathers a man cannot simply get on a horse ride west and stake a claim for farmland and sustain himself and a family.

We live in a society like it or not and a future with unregulated capitalism will be bleak for the 99%.

I do not like the world I envision under libertarianism.

Ron Paul will never be elected I hate to burt your bubble but if you take away the fantasy that he will take down the fed and declaw the police state what do you have left?

He wont be able to do either by the way.

The rich and powerfull will be free to posion your wells with fracking exploit your children and turn the starveing masses into serfs. They will be free to add cheap harmfull addatives to the allready tainted food supply etc etc etc.

You wont stand a chance against unregulated big business.

unregulated means exactly THAT!
Unable to run to Big Brother for Favors!
Unable to use Big Brother to kill off Competition!
You still have a lot to learn,Grasshopper!
I'd suggest you read Mises instead of Marx!:laughing:

actionlynx's photo
Sat 01/14/12 08:26 AM
Apparently, this topic was a double post, so I am transferring my response to this one from the other....just to keep things simple.

******

A voice for some of my own reservations regarding Ron Paul...

Not all libertarians hold the same values he does. Like any political party, there is a wide spectrum of views. Paul's views have been regarded as extreme within the Libertarian Party for decades.

It is easy to forget sometimes that government regulation came about because of rape-n-pillage capitalists and snake oil salesman. The motto of a truly free market is "caveat emptor" - "let the buyer beware". Even with our regulations, this philosophy still applies, but as our country grew and life became more complex, it has become much more difficult for the individual to prevent himself from being taken for a fool. Even if we abolished regulations, they would soon return as consumer watchdog groups sprung up to increase public awareness and ease the burden on the consumer. These same groups would then put pressure on government to invoke minimum standards to keep business honest. If people are already dissatisfied with practices of big corporations and banks, imagine how much more dissatisfied they would be if businesses suddenly had a free hand like they did around 1900.

The Founding Fathers, if transported to the present, would be shocked to find that it has only been 230 years since the end of the American Revolution. They would most likely believe it had been 500, or even 1,000, years since the time they lived in. Present society is like the world of The Jetsons compared to colonial times. I am willing to bet that if the Founding Fathers rewrote The Constitution today, they would define much more clearly the government's powers when it comes to regulating and overseeing commerce. That is, they would recognize a greater need than anything they had ever envisioned previously. Anyone who reads The Constitution can see that they already recognized some need for regulation, the only question at the time was how much regulation would be needed in the future.

That said, I think there is currently too much regulation in some areas, and not enough in others. As I've stated before, the current system inhibits small business more than it does big business. The more revenue a company has, the more it can absorb. Is it any wonder that smaller local businesses are being replaced by big chains? More and more often, the name of the game has become "expand or die".

Every additional expense government thrusts upon small business requires additional growth in the customer base to offset it. That usually requires an investment of capital, whether through advertising, construction, leasing, purchasing, or whatever. For a small business, this often means either several years of saving or securing a loan (increasing the expense even more). If that capital is instead going toward taxes and maintaining government standards, it forces small business to rely more heavily on loans - going into debt while also having to pay interest, both of which might otherwise be unnecessary. On top of this, the small business needs to keep pace with competition, which also often requires an investment of capital. Unless the business has, or can raise, enough capital to do both, it will lag behind in one area or the other, thereby hindering its own ability to generate revenue. So the less a small business has to spend due to government, the more it can spend to keep pace with competition. Some of that competition just happens to be corporations and local chains - the bigger fish in the pond.

So I feel regulation is necessary, but the government has a tendency to micro-manage. There has to be a way to tax and regulate commerce that is fair for big business and small business alike. Right now, I don't see that as being how the system is set up. Ron Paul's proposals would shift the balance even further in the favor of big business just through the unregulated muscle of capital and deception. And yet he's calling for full disclosure and transparency from the government? I just can't help but note the hypocrisy in his stance, and it worries me. I like some of ideas and some of what he says, but I can't shake the feeling that there is something Ron Paul is not being honest about.

Bestinshow's photo
Sat 01/14/12 08:31 AM



As, by this definition, the founding fathers were apparently equivilent to 6 year old mentalities, they seem to have written a document referred to as "the greatest piece of law and literature ever written", and having lasted and been accepted, and respected as sound principle for 200 years.......

Freedom has a price! To think that any gov't can write a law, create an environment that fits all, or works for everyone, is ludacrous.

When the gov't gains control of any institution, it is doomed to failure. The trouble is, it is the people who are the test subjects, not the institutions who manage them!

I at 60 am proud to say "growing up" did not remove my desire to be free, to make my own choices! My rebel nature is what incites my desire to seek a truth, to fight for that liberty and oppose any injustice against it.

I would rather live on my feet than die on my belly!
Dont get me wrong I love what Dr. Paul says about takeing down the fed and the creeping police state but I cant help but wonder who would plow the roads if he fullfills his campaign promises.

You wont be free when the rich and powerfull have no checks or balances you will be a serf.

The country has changed greatly since the days of the founding fathers a man cannot simply get on a horse ride west and stake a claim for farmland and sustain himself and a family.

We live in a society like it or not and a future with unregulated capitalism will be bleak for the 99%.

I do not like the world I envision under libertarianism.

Ron Paul will never be elected I hate to burt your bubble but if you take away the fantasy that he will take down the fed and declaw the police state what do you have left?

He wont be able to do either by the way.

The rich and powerfull will be free to posion your wells with fracking exploit your children and turn the starveing masses into serfs. They will be free to add cheap harmfull addatives to the allready tainted food supply etc etc etc.

You wont stand a chance against unregulated big business.

unregulated means exactly THAT!
Unable to run to Big Brother for Favors!
Unable to use Big Brother to kill off Competition!
You still have a lot to learn,Grasshopper!
I'd suggest you read Mises instead of Marx!:laughing:
Absurd Mr conrd I would prefer a government that answers to the people than a corperate board that answers to shareholders.

Without a strong government we will have blackwater instead of a local sherrif.

We will have Mcdonalds instead of a healthy school lunch.

Kids working in coal mines, unsafe food, unsafe meds and all forms of quackery. good luck trying to be a free man , maybe you will be free to sell a kid into indentured servitude?

For now I have a foot of snow to shovel off my driveway we had winter arrive in ohio last night and thanks to the government my road is plowed.

Bestinshow's photo
Sat 01/14/12 08:31 AM



As, by this definition, the founding fathers were apparently equivilent to 6 year old mentalities, they seem to have written a document referred to as "the greatest piece of law and literature ever written", and having lasted and been accepted, and respected as sound principle for 200 years.......

Freedom has a price! To think that any gov't can write a law, create an environment that fits all, or works for everyone, is ludacrous.

When the gov't gains control of any institution, it is doomed to failure. The trouble is, it is the people who are the test subjects, not the institutions who manage them!

I at 60 am proud to say "growing up" did not remove my desire to be free, to make my own choices! My rebel nature is what incites my desire to seek a truth, to fight for that liberty and oppose any injustice against it.

I would rather live on my feet than die on my belly!
Dont get me wrong I love what Dr. Paul says about takeing down the fed and the creeping police state but I cant help but wonder who would plow the roads if he fullfills his campaign promises.

You wont be free when the rich and powerfull have no checks or balances you will be a serf.

The country has changed greatly since the days of the founding fathers a man cannot simply get on a horse ride west and stake a claim for farmland and sustain himself and a family.

We live in a society like it or not and a future with unregulated capitalism will be bleak for the 99%.

I do not like the world I envision under libertarianism.

Ron Paul will never be elected I hate to burt your bubble but if you take away the fantasy that he will take down the fed and declaw the police state what do you have left?

He wont be able to do either by the way.

The rich and powerfull will be free to posion your wells with fracking exploit your children and turn the starveing masses into serfs. They will be free to add cheap harmfull addatives to the allready tainted food supply etc etc etc.

You wont stand a chance against unregulated big business.

unregulated means exactly THAT!
Unable to run to Big Brother for Favors!
Unable to use Big Brother to kill off Competition!
You still have a lot to learn,Grasshopper!
I'd suggest you read Mises instead of Marx!:laughing:
Absurd Mr conrd I would prefer a government that answers to the people than a corperate board that answers to shareholders.

Without a strong government we will have blackwater instead of a local sherrif.

We will have Mcdonalds instead of a healthy school lunch.

Kids working in coal mines, unsafe food, unsafe meds and all forms of quackery. good luck trying to be a free man , maybe you will be free to sell a kid into indentured servitude?

For now I have a foot of snow to shovel off my driveway we had winter arrive in ohio last night and thanks to the government my road is plowed.

no photo
Sat 01/14/12 08:40 AM




As, by this definition, the founding fathers were apparently equivilent to 6 year old mentalities, they seem to have written a document referred to as "the greatest piece of law and literature ever written", and having lasted and been accepted, and respected as sound principle for 200 years.......

Freedom has a price! To think that any gov't can write a law, create an environment that fits all, or works for everyone, is ludacrous.

When the gov't gains control of any institution, it is doomed to failure. The trouble is, it is the people who are the test subjects, not the institutions who manage them!

I at 60 am proud to say "growing up" did not remove my desire to be free, to make my own choices! My rebel nature is what incites my desire to seek a truth, to fight for that liberty and oppose any injustice against it.

I would rather live on my feet than die on my belly!
Dont get me wrong I love what Dr. Paul says about takeing down the fed and the creeping police state but I cant help but wonder who would plow the roads if he fullfills his campaign promises.

You wont be free when the rich and powerfull have no checks or balances you will be a serf.

The country has changed greatly since the days of the founding fathers a man cannot simply get on a horse ride west and stake a claim for farmland and sustain himself and a family.

We live in a society like it or not and a future with unregulated capitalism will be bleak for the 99%.

I do not like the world I envision under libertarianism.

Ron Paul will never be elected I hate to burt your bubble but if you take away the fantasy that he will take down the fed and declaw the police state what do you have left?

He wont be able to do either by the way.

The rich and powerfull will be free to posion your wells with fracking exploit your children and turn the starveing masses into serfs. They will be free to add cheap harmfull addatives to the allready tainted food supply etc etc etc.

You wont stand a chance against unregulated big business.

unregulated means exactly THAT!
Unable to run to Big Brother for Favors!
Unable to use Big Brother to kill off Competition!
You still have a lot to learn,Grasshopper!
I'd suggest you read Mises instead of Marx!:laughing:
Absurd Mr conrd I would prefer a government that answers to the people than a corperate board that answers to shareholders.

Without a strong government we will have blackwater instead of a local sherrif.

We will have Mcdonalds instead of a healthy school lunch.

Kids working in coal mines, unsafe food, unsafe meds and all forms of quackery. good luck trying to be a free man , maybe you will be free to sell a kid into indentured servitude?

For now I have a foot of snow to shovel off my driveway we had winter arrive in ohio last night and thanks to the government my road is plowed.


If government regs are not reigned in, you won't have time to worry about "what" you kids eat because you'll be too busy worrying about "if" they eat.....

Conrad_73's photo
Sat 01/14/12 08:42 AM




As, by this definition, the founding fathers were apparently equivilent to 6 year old mentalities, they seem to have written a document referred to as "the greatest piece of law and literature ever written", and having lasted and been accepted, and respected as sound principle for 200 years.......

Freedom has a price! To think that any gov't can write a law, create an environment that fits all, or works for everyone, is ludacrous.

When the gov't gains control of any institution, it is doomed to failure. The trouble is, it is the people who are the test subjects, not the institutions who manage them!

I at 60 am proud to say "growing up" did not remove my desire to be free, to make my own choices! My rebel nature is what incites my desire to seek a truth, to fight for that liberty and oppose any injustice against it.

I would rather live on my feet than die on my belly!
Dont get me wrong I love what Dr. Paul says about takeing down the fed and the creeping police state but I cant help but wonder who would plow the roads if he fullfills his campaign promises.

You wont be free when the rich and powerfull have no checks or balances you will be a serf.

The country has changed greatly since the days of the founding fathers a man cannot simply get on a horse ride west and stake a claim for farmland and sustain himself and a family.

We live in a society like it or not and a future with unregulated capitalism will be bleak for the 99%.

I do not like the world I envision under libertarianism.

Ron Paul will never be elected I hate to burt your bubble but if you take away the fantasy that he will take down the fed and declaw the police state what do you have left?

He wont be able to do either by the way.

The rich and powerfull will be free to posion your wells with fracking exploit your children and turn the starveing masses into serfs. They will be free to add cheap harmfull addatives to the allready tainted food supply etc etc etc.

You wont stand a chance against unregulated big business.

unregulated means exactly THAT!
Unable to run to Big Brother for Favors!
Unable to use Big Brother to kill off Competition!
You still have a lot to learn,Grasshopper!
I'd suggest you read Mises instead of Marx!:laughing:
Absurd Mr conrd I would prefer a government that answers to the people than a corperate board that answers to shareholders.

Without a strong government we will have blackwater instead of a local sherrif.

We will have Mcdonalds instead of a healthy school lunch.

Kids working in coal mines, unsafe food, unsafe meds and all forms of quackery. good luck trying to be a free man , maybe you will be free to sell a kid into indentured servitude?

For now I have a foot of snow to shovel off my driveway we had winter arrive in ohio last night and thanks to the government my road is plowed.
That Road sounds more like a Rut!

Bestinshow's photo
Sat 01/14/12 09:43 AM





As, by this definition, the founding fathers were apparently equivilent to 6 year old mentalities, they seem to have written a document referred to as "the greatest piece of law and literature ever written", and having lasted and been accepted, and respected as sound principle for 200 years.......

Freedom has a price! To think that any gov't can write a law, create an environment that fits all, or works for everyone, is ludacrous.

When the gov't gains control of any institution, it is doomed to failure. The trouble is, it is the people who are the test subjects, not the institutions who manage them!

I at 60 am proud to say "growing up" did not remove my desire to be free, to make my own choices! My rebel nature is what incites my desire to seek a truth, to fight for that liberty and oppose any injustice against it.

I would rather live on my feet than die on my belly!
Dont get me wrong I love what Dr. Paul says about takeing down the fed and the creeping police state but I cant help but wonder who would plow the roads if he fullfills his campaign promises.

You wont be free when the rich and powerfull have no checks or balances you will be a serf.

The country has changed greatly since the days of the founding fathers a man cannot simply get on a horse ride west and stake a claim for farmland and sustain himself and a family.

We live in a society like it or not and a future with unregulated capitalism will be bleak for the 99%.

I do not like the world I envision under libertarianism.

Ron Paul will never be elected I hate to burt your bubble but if you take away the fantasy that he will take down the fed and declaw the police state what do you have left?

He wont be able to do either by the way.

The rich and powerfull will be free to posion your wells with fracking exploit your children and turn the starveing masses into serfs. They will be free to add cheap harmfull addatives to the allready tainted food supply etc etc etc.

You wont stand a chance against unregulated big business.

unregulated means exactly THAT!
Unable to run to Big Brother for Favors!
Unable to use Big Brother to kill off Competition!
You still have a lot to learn,Grasshopper!
I'd suggest you read Mises instead of Marx!:laughing:
Absurd Mr conrd I would prefer a government that answers to the people than a corperate board that answers to shareholders.

Without a strong government we will have blackwater instead of a local sherrif.

We will have Mcdonalds instead of a healthy school lunch.

Kids working in coal mines, unsafe food, unsafe meds and all forms of quackery. good luck trying to be a free man , maybe you will be free to sell a kid into indentured servitude?

For now I have a foot of snow to shovel off my driveway we had winter arrive in ohio last night and thanks to the government my road is plowed.


If government regs are not reigned in, you won't have time to worry about "what" you kids eat because you'll be too busy worrying about "if" they eat.....
Thats laughable what regs are you talking about?

In my reality the "regs" that protect me and my family are well worth it, my food is safe to eat and water safe to drink, the things I put on or in my body will not unknoweingly cause me cancer or another illness, asbestos is removed from the environment, etc etc.

What hurts me is free trade with countries that have slave labor unemploying my fellow americans this was a bipartisen effort funded by big business that never has your best interest at heart.


Bestinshow's photo
Sat 01/14/12 09:45 AM

Apparently, this topic was a double post, so I am transferring my response to this one from the other....just to keep things simple.

******

A voice for some of my own reservations regarding Ron Paul...

Not all libertarians hold the same values he does. Like any political party, there is a wide spectrum of views. Paul's views have been regarded as extreme within the Libertarian Party for decades.

It is easy to forget sometimes that government regulation came about because of rape-n-pillage capitalists and snake oil salesman. The motto of a truly free market is "caveat emptor" - "let the buyer beware". Even with our regulations, this philosophy still applies, but as our country grew and life became more complex, it has become much more difficult for the individual to prevent himself from being taken for a fool. Even if we abolished regulations, they would soon return as consumer watchdog groups sprung up to increase public awareness and ease the burden on the consumer. These same groups would then put pressure on government to invoke minimum standards to keep business honest. If people are already dissatisfied with practices of big corporations and banks, imagine how much more dissatisfied they would be if businesses suddenly had a free hand like they did around 1900.

The Founding Fathers, if transported to the present, would be shocked to find that it has only been 230 years since the end of the American Revolution. They would most likely believe it had been 500, or even 1,000, years since the time they lived in. Present society is like the world of The Jetsons compared to colonial times. I am willing to bet that if the Founding Fathers rewrote The Constitution today, they would define much more clearly the government's powers when it comes to regulating and overseeing commerce. That is, they would recognize a greater need than anything they had ever envisioned previously. Anyone who reads The Constitution can see that they already recognized some need for regulation, the only question at the time was how much regulation would be needed in the future.

That said, I think there is currently too much regulation in some areas, and not enough in others. As I've stated before, the current system inhibits small business more than it does big business. The more revenue a company has, the more it can absorb. Is it any wonder that smaller local businesses are being replaced by big chains? More and more often, the name of the game has become "expand or die".

Every additional expense government thrusts upon small business requires additional growth in the customer base to offset it. That usually requires an investment of capital, whether through advertising, construction, leasing, purchasing, or whatever. For a small business, this often means either several years of saving or securing a loan (increasing the expense even more). If that capital is instead going toward taxes and maintaining government standards, it forces small business to rely more heavily on loans - going into debt while also having to pay interest, both of which might otherwise be unnecessary. On top of this, the small business needs to keep pace with competition, which also often requires an investment of capital. Unless the business has, or can raise, enough capital to do both, it will lag behind in one area or the other, thereby hindering its own ability to generate revenue. So the less a small business has to spend due to government, the more it can spend to keep pace with competition. Some of that competition just happens to be corporations and local chains - the bigger fish in the pond.

So I feel regulation is necessary, but the government has a tendency to micro-manage. There has to be a way to tax and regulate commerce that is fair for big business and small business alike. Right now, I don't see that as being how the system is set up. Ron Paul's proposals would shift the balance even further in the favor of big business just through the unregulated muscle of capital and deception. And yet he's calling for full disclosure and transparency from the government? I just can't help but note the hypocrisy in his stance, and it worries me. I like some of ideas and some of what he says, but I can't shake the feeling that there is something Ron Paul is not being honest about.
thanks for reposting it was a good read.

Bestinshow's photo
Sat 01/14/12 09:49 AM





As, by this definition, the founding fathers were apparently equivilent to 6 year old mentalities, they seem to have written a document referred to as "the greatest piece of law and literature ever written", and having lasted and been accepted, and respected as sound principle for 200 years.......

Freedom has a price! To think that any gov't can write a law, create an environment that fits all, or works for everyone, is ludacrous.

When the gov't gains control of any institution, it is doomed to failure. The trouble is, it is the people who are the test subjects, not the institutions who manage them!

I at 60 am proud to say "growing up" did not remove my desire to be free, to make my own choices! My rebel nature is what incites my desire to seek a truth, to fight for that liberty and oppose any injustice against it.

I would rather live on my feet than die on my belly!
Dont get me wrong I love what Dr. Paul says about takeing down the fed and the creeping police state but I cant help but wonder who would plow the roads if he fullfills his campaign promises.

You wont be free when the rich and powerfull have no checks or balances you will be a serf.

The country has changed greatly since the days of the founding fathers a man cannot simply get on a horse ride west and stake a claim for farmland and sustain himself and a family.

We live in a society like it or not and a future with unregulated capitalism will be bleak for the 99%.

I do not like the world I envision under libertarianism.

Ron Paul will never be elected I hate to burt your bubble but if you take away the fantasy that he will take down the fed and declaw the police state what do you have left?

He wont be able to do either by the way.

The rich and powerfull will be free to posion your wells with fracking exploit your children and turn the starveing masses into serfs. They will be free to add cheap harmfull addatives to the allready tainted food supply etc etc etc.

You wont stand a chance against unregulated big business.

unregulated means exactly THAT!
Unable to run to Big Brother for Favors!
Unable to use Big Brother to kill off Competition!
You still have a lot to learn,Grasshopper!
I'd suggest you read Mises instead of Marx!:laughing:
Absurd Mr conrd I would prefer a government that answers to the people than a corperate board that answers to shareholders.

Without a strong government we will have blackwater instead of a local sherrif.

We will have Mcdonalds instead of a healthy school lunch.

Kids working in coal mines, unsafe food, unsafe meds and all forms of quackery. good luck trying to be a free man , maybe you will be free to sell a kid into indentured servitude?

For now I have a foot of snow to shovel off my driveway we had winter arrive in ohio last night and thanks to the government my road is plowed.
That Road sounds more like a Rut!
Its more like eighteen inches Mr Conrad a real winter wallop but lucky its the light powdery snow since it is so cold.

I still cant help but wonder who would plow the roads under a libertarian government would I get charged for my frontage property by a private contractor or would it be a toll to drive on a plowed road?

Would those who cannot afford to pay the toll be refused passage?

Things to think about while I warm up and hit round two of the shoveling.

boredinaz06's photo
Sat 01/14/12 11:53 AM


Ron Paul is someone who believes that you as a human should have the right to live your life without government interference telling you what you can and cannot do, this is something I whole heartedly believe. I am an adult capable of making my own decisions and do not need nor did I give permission to the government making my decisions for me. If you don't like this idea then I feel sad for you.

heavenlyboy34's photo
Sat 01/14/12 12:08 PM
Edited by heavenlyboy34 on Sat 01/14/12 12:15 PM

Apparently, this topic was a double post, so I am transferring my response to this one from the other....just to keep things simple.

******

A voice for some of my own reservations regarding Ron Paul...

Not all libertarians hold the same values he does. Like any political party, there is a wide spectrum of views. Paul's views have been regarded as extreme within the Libertarian Party for decades.

It is easy to forget sometimes that government regulation came about because of rape-n-pillage capitalists and snake oil salesman. The motto of a truly free market is "caveat emptor" - "let the buyer beware". Even with our regulations, this philosophy still applies, but as our country grew and life became more complex, it has become much more difficult for the individual to prevent himself from being taken for a fool. Even if we abolished regulations, they would soon return as consumer watchdog groups sprung up to increase public awareness and ease the burden on the consumer. These same groups would then put pressure on government to invoke minimum standards to keep business honest. If people are already dissatisfied with practices of big corporations and banks, imagine how much more dissatisfied they would be if businesses suddenly had a free hand like they did around 1900.

The Founding Fathers, if transported to the present, would be shocked to find that it has only been 230 years since the end of the American Revolution. They would most likely believe it had been 500, or even 1,000, years since the time they lived in. Present society is like the world of The Jetsons compared to colonial times. I am willing to bet that if the Founding Fathers rewrote The Constitution today, they would define much more clearly the government's powers when it comes to regulating and overseeing commerce. That is, they would recognize a greater need than anything they had ever envisioned previously. Anyone who reads The Constitution can see that they already recognized some need for regulation, the only question at the time was how much regulation would be needed in the future.

That said, I think there is currently too much regulation in some areas, and not enough in others. As I've stated before, the current system inhibits small business more than it does big business. The more revenue a company has, the more it can absorb. Is it any wonder that smaller local businesses are being replaced by big chains? More and more often, the name of the game has become "expand or die".

Every additional expense government thrusts upon small business requires additional growth in the customer base to offset it. That usually requires an investment of capital, whether through advertising, construction, leasing, purchasing, or whatever. For a small business, this often means either several years of saving or securing a loan (increasing the expense even more). If that capital is instead going toward taxes and maintaining government standards, it forces small business to rely more heavily on loans - going into debt while also having to pay interest, both of which might otherwise be unnecessary. On top of this, the small business needs to keep pace with competition, which also often requires an investment of capital. Unless the business has, or can raise, enough capital to do both, it will lag behind in one area or the other, thereby hindering its own ability to generate revenue. So the less a small business has to spend due to government, the more it can spend to keep pace with competition. Some of that competition just happens to be corporations and local chains - the bigger fish in the pond.

So I feel regulation is necessary, but the government has a tendency to micro-manage. There has to be a way to tax and regulate commerce that is fair for big business and small business alike. Right now, I don't see that as being how the system is set up. Ron Paul's proposals would shift the balance even further in the favor of big business just through the unregulated muscle of capital and deception. And yet he's calling for full disclosure and transparency from the government? I just can't help but note the hypocrisy in his stance, and it worries me. I like some of ideas and some of what he says, but I can't shake the feeling that there is something Ron Paul is not being honest about.

False. Ron Paul's position is to leave issues of regulation (if at all) to States and cities. You clearly haven't read what Ron has actually said about these things. You're just buying the media spin. All the legitimate powers of the Federal government are spelled out very clearly in the Constitution (pay special attention to the 10th amendment, btw). If you (for some reason) can't understand the Constitution, read the Federalist papers and the debates from the Constitutional convention.

At any rate, there is voluminous literature that clearly demonstrates your claims about "unregulated" markets to be false. Probably the most accessible for laymen is "Why Government Doesn't Work" by Harry Browne. Read it free here: http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/why_govt_doesnt_work.pdf

Read the Constitution free here: http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

and the Federalist Papers free here: http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/

Dr Thomas Woods addresses myths about the "evils" of "unregulated" free markets and American history in a video lecture here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-LJ3wZjD4I

actionlynx's photo
Sat 01/14/12 12:24 PM
Heavenlyboy34...

I am getting very tired of you telling me what I have and have not read.

How do you know what I've read? Were you there looking over my shoulder? Tracking all the sites my browser has visited?

I already know Paul supports States' Rights. However, States' Rights are, IMO, an outdated ideal because of how rapidly this nation has grown over the past 150 years. The population of this country is much more mobile than it was in the 19th century. This mobility requires that the federal government be able to maintain certain nationwide standards just for the various States to co-exist peaceably.

And I have told you before: I OWN a copy of The Constitution, The Federalist Papers, and The Articles of Confederation.

Get off my back.

I disagree with you.

Deal with it.

msharmony's photo
Sat 01/14/12 12:27 PM



Ron Paul is someone who believes that you as a human should have the right to live your life without government interference telling you what you can and cannot do, this is something I whole heartedly believe. I am an adult capable of making my own decisions and do not need nor did I give permission to the government making my decisions for me. If you don't like this idea then I feel sad for you.



I like the idea as far as someones 'decisions' dont impede upon my rights, or safety.


I Cant really think of any time that the government made a decision for me, other than the whole seatbelt and car insurance thing,,which I understand as being a part of the not impeding on the rights and safety of others issue,,,

Bravalady's photo
Sat 01/14/12 02:52 PM
HB34 --

"States' rights" was never the intended policy of the makers of the Constitution. If you know your American history, you should know that the Constitutional Convention was called because the Articles of Confederation were failing as a form of government. The Articles did incorporate states' rights, and there was no effective central government at all. It was destroying the country. I'm not sure what the purpose is of bringing up The Federalist, but remember the three authors disagreed among themselves about some things. But ALL supported an effective central government.

Garry Wills has written brilliantly about this, especially in A Necessary Evil.

Seakolony's photo
Sat 01/14/12 03:00 PM




As, by this definition, the founding fathers were apparently equivilent to 6 year old mentalities, they seem to have written a document referred to as "the greatest piece of law and literature ever written", and having lasted and been accepted, and respected as sound principle for 200 years.......

Freedom has a price! To think that any gov't can write a law, create an environment that fits all, or works for everyone, is ludacrous.

When the gov't gains control of any institution, it is doomed to failure. The trouble is, it is the people who are the test subjects, not the institutions who manage them!

I at 60 am proud to say "growing up" did not remove my desire to be free, to make my own choices! My rebel nature is what incites my desire to seek a truth, to fight for that liberty and oppose any injustice against it.

I would rather live on my feet than die on my belly!
Dont get me wrong I love what Dr. Paul says about takeing down the fed and the creeping police state but I cant help but wonder who would plow the roads if he fullfills his campaign promises.

You wont be free when the rich and powerfull have no checks or balances you will be a serf.

The country has changed greatly since the days of the founding fathers a man cannot simply get on a horse ride west and stake a claim for farmland and sustain himself and a family.

We live in a society like it or not and a future with unregulated capitalism will be bleak for the 99%.

I do not like the world I envision under libertarianism.

Ron Paul will never be elected I hate to burt your bubble but if you take away the fantasy that he will take down the fed and declaw the police state what do you have left?

He wont be able to do either by the way.

The rich and powerfull will be free to posion your wells with fracking exploit your children and turn the starveing masses into serfs. They will be free to add cheap harmfull addatives to the allready tainted food supply etc etc etc.

You wont stand a chance against unregulated big business.

unregulated means exactly THAT!
Unable to run to Big Brother for Favors!
Unable to use Big Brother to kill off Competition!
You still have a lot to learn,Grasshopper!
I'd suggest you read Mises instead of Marx!:laughing:
Absurd Mr conrd I would prefer a government that answers to the people than a corperate board that answers to shareholders.

Without a strong government we will have blackwater instead of a local sherrif.

We will have Mcdonalds instead of a healthy school lunch.

Kids working in coal mines, unsafe food, unsafe meds and all forms of quackery. good luck trying to be a free man , maybe you will be free to sell a kid into indentured servitude?

For now I have a foot of snow to shovel off my driveway we had winter arrive in ohio last night and thanks to the government my road is plowed.


I cannot help but be appalled at anyone calling frozen meat and canned food items opened and plopped on trays with added preservatives, sugars and tranfats healthy....aghast at the thought...incredulousgrumble noway surprised shocked scared

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