Holy crap.. you're not listening.. *sigh*

YOU HAVE THE CHOICE. A FREEDOM TO CHOOSE THAT WAY OF LIFE.
IT IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT FORCED UPON YOU.

You CHOSE to remain Amish. Just as you would CHOOSE to remain part of a tribe. The Amish send their children into society to see which way of life THEY prefer. Go back in time? Heck freaking no, that's not the point..

Did I say you were Amish? No.
Did I say you were Indian? No.

In actuality, if you consider yourself full-blooded American; then your heritage starts in England; where we would all technically be 'descendants' from. Of course, if you were born elsewhere, migrated here, blah, blah, blah.. that's all irrelevant.

*sigh*

The point is..

IT IS NOT FREEDOM WHEN YOU ARE FORCED INTO SUBMISSION.

I can't live in this country and say, man I'm not listening to what Obama says.. I refuse to pay taxes... yada yada, cause what happens?

Apply that to Amish lifestyle, the result isn't imprisonment now is it? No. Period.

Man, you think I wanna live like the Amish, your crazy. I'd never give up my PS3. :D

Indians, maybe, but only if I was allowed to invent the push-up bra.

HOWEVER, this statement:

so the idea of a 'freedom' where people have a perfect existence of doing what they want and having what they need, with no interference or rules or expectations or governance,, is idealistic dishonesty,,,

Proves exactly what I'm trying to imply.. you are too close minded and find this false safety security net comforting because change scares you.

We don't want a world without law rules or expectations; however, I believe each individual, whether family or pack, should be able to decide what those are. As say, a Father and Mother create a set of house ground rules and guidelines for when children go out at night or with friends.

Yeah, you'd still have those who would try to rob you, but what's actually different from now except the fact YOU KNOW YOU'RE BEING RIPPED OFF AND BY WHO.

Live off the land, have plenty of game to hunt and what not?

Seriously?!?

I didn't cause that oil spill..
I didn't, nor have any need for nuclear weaponry nor 'weapons of mass destruction..

Each time you write, you're validating our point further.. you just don't see it.

The whole respecting others rights, etc etc you two talk about..

It's called the "GOLDEN RULE".

I suppose the Bible is also just a guideline we are supposed to follow as we see fit, too, hm?

the golden rule do unto others

we are three hundred million, I think governing with that rule in mind is a good thing and I know for a fact there will be no law that all three hundred million will agree with but it would be ludacrous to pass bills on what the minority wanted

In a household, we all have to contribute something, not just for our own benefit, but for the benefit of the household unit

the same is true, or should be IMHO, of the national unit, the NATIONS household

we all should be contributing for that UNIT and not just looking out for our own immediate gratification and benefits,,,



so we have what we have,,,and some things get better and some things get worse,, this doesnt change,,,

Tools.

That's what term you are defining.

The gears inside a larger machine that, if removed, the infrastructure collapses. Yes, most 'average' Americans, could easily survive a lifestyle with no government saying where when and what; however, the rich, who make their millions of those who do all the work and never get credit for it.. What about them?

Do they know how to get milk from a cow, or meat from a pig?

No.

In a society where 'money' doesn't exist..
They are useless.

You're a cog, inside a problem, that you believe is already the solution, but in actuality.. it IS the problem. If there was no 'money', what good would being a welfare (title?) do they world then?

It's just a cycle that acts like precipitation; it rains, sits, goes back up only to fall again. A pointless system to divide the wealth amongst those who don't deserve it while stripping it from those who do. Plain and simple.

Government created this cycle and no longer do the 'people' matter, so long as their cycle continues.

I'd say that's more or less accurate, universal laws aside, as in not stealing from another person, murder, etc. But yes, that's kinda what freedom is all about, having the right to do anything you want as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of someone else to do the same. I know such a tough concept to understand for someone who's used to these universal lawmakers that dictate every little thing, but oh so simple.

I meant the people in general, and really there's always been those in power trying to control them, it's just a matter of who rises up and says no, and when they do it. It always happens, it's happened in the past and is happening again now. People will only stand for so much, and when they break that empire is gonna fall. You can count on it.

in a world with no money, there would be some other bartering source, people would still have to WORK for it, and people would still exchange it for their needs and wants

and , when hit with hard times, there would still be a system based in that BARTERING currency, for them to lean on temporarily

If history is any indication, every empire falls at some point, but this one isnt going anytime soon, even though we forget,, its fairly young and has quite a way to go,,,,


there was nearly two hundred years of trying to get rights for africans in this country, with no collapse,,,,,

we have had , maybe, thirty years of the 'founding' class of citizens feeling like their privileges are at risk,,, byt then again the violence and anger management issues of today are probably much worse than during slavery,, and there is much more of a 'right' to be violent than there was for africans,,,

but I still would gamble, it will be a while before a collapse,,,cutbacks on some of the privileges we have taken for granted,, possibly

but not a total collapse,,

"We have what we have."

"Things get better, others get worse."

That is the thinking, the very frame of mind, of which I speak.

It's the 'copping-out' mentality.

You do realize, that even if 5,000,000 people agreed to banish government; that is still a minority.

You do realize, that 30 million people could say, we should banish gay rights; yet still, that's a minority.

To get a 'majority' in our society, now..

You need 150 Million plus.

I do believe that may just be more than the entire East Coast.

If they don't know anything ABOUT that, how are they gonna be able to? If all they've known is a life where money comes from the Federal Reserve, in a limitless supply, and this money is the only real source of trade for goods, they won't have a clue what to do when that money source runs out.

If they've never grown a garden, never as sins said milked a cow or butchered a pig, and everything they've gotten has come from a grocery store, what's gonna happen when they can't get there anymore? They will starve.

This is what you are not seeing, when you make a people completely in every way dependent on the system to support them, if you take it away they have nothing. This is what we have now in America by and large.

Those that have the power to give us all we need, can take it away just as quick, one would be wise to remember that.

Yes, bartering.
A blacksmith would forge weapons.
A herder would raise his cattle.
A farmer would grow his crops.
A tailor would make his clothing.
A writer would write his books.

Two heads of cattle, for 50 stocks of corn.
Etc, etc, etc.

However, in that type of system; the one who is the happiest; that is the only 'concept' of the rich man.

Sounds a bit medieval, when put like this, but never-the-less, it's true. Bartering is one thing, money is another. Trading what you have, what you earned, what you busted your a** for; is far better, in my mind, than buying everything he owns using an the mass populations hard earned money; especially when you waste half of what you get, while the other half sits just collecting dust for the next 60 years...

well, not quite

last estimates were between 270 and 190 thousand registered voters, less than one percent of the actual population

and of those registered, voter turnout is usually between 40 and 50 percent

which in rough numbers would mean 30 mill would be more than an ample number to get something done

but then , we would have to factor in the electoral college as well


still , 30 mill could get quite a bit done,,,

knowing how to milk a cow is secondary to knowing where to go and having the resources to FIND a cow,,,this is a different environment

so yeah, if there are no grocery stores, at this point, alot of people will starve,, even if they KNOW how to milk cows because there wont be enough cows for them to personally milk and they mostly wont be living in areas where cows are readily available

I can tell you, I hardly use MONEY, right now I usually swipe a card,, virtual money has been added to 'real money' as the source of bartering,, and most have adjusted just fine,,,

I dont have anyone 'giving' me what I need

but I do work for a common bartering unit so that I can PAY for the things I need,,,,from people who invest that common bartering unit to PROVIDE it from people who invest that common bartering unit to PRODUCE it,,,

I agree, but we no longer live in small densely populated towns with abundant resources,,,,

..for the love of...

Just forget it..

Goodnight.

Have fun helping the 'needy'.

:]

You don't understand, the way the system is set up they have you entirely reliant on THEM. What happens when they aren't there??? As they control the source of money, they control you along with it. They are setting us up for the inevitable fall, but you can't see it for the life of you.

I truly hope you don't have to learn this the hard way.

Oh and also on the Amish and Indian cultures thing, something else you're not understanding that sin more or less pointed out without saying it, is that though this idea of no real government to speak of seems so idealistic and not realistic to you, they prove it is not because they actually do it. Is it something that we'd need to adjust to? Yes. But it is absolutely doable and they are living proof.

So then everyone should live like "Little house on the prairie"and take justice into their own hands?Hmmm interesting.

I'm not even saying we all have to do that, but less government involvement if any at all is not a bad thing.

We already do.
Those with power exploit this to the extreme where justice is more than just redefined.

pointed out without saying it,, really?

never knew there was a culture of mindreaders

the amish have written laws, just like we do

repetitive breaking of their law doesnt put you in jail, because they arent technically a 'country' but a culture within the country

but breaking of their law does call for complete disenfranchisement, disowned by the community, the family, and anyone else one has become 'accustomed' to or dependent upon

they are a TOTALLY dependent culture because their whole way of life is community first


,,,,but sometimes, I wonder whats the use in trying to give information that balancs out fantasy with reality,,,