Topic: Long skeptic in the room
no photo
Wed 01/25/12 10:34 AM

Those articles have sources. The sources support the position. Its about the preponderance of evidence. Which supports that this man is a class A denialist.

You didn't really read the articles or click the links did you?


You got me, I obviously didn't click on the links, because I was able to tell you what was in the second link.

You didn't really read my previous post, did you?

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 10:38 AM

Bushidobillyclub wrote...

Those articles have sources. The sources support the position. Its about the preponderance of evidence. Which supports that this man is a class A denialist.

You didn't really read the articles or click the links did you?


-VS-


Bushidobillyclub wrote...
Just honestly putting stuff out there. Show it all, then come to conclusions, that is what my daddy always said . . .


Sounds like you have already come to a conclusion. Maybe that's because you are only reading one side of the argument?

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 10:51 AM
WITHDRAWN: HIV-AIDS hypothesis out of touch with South African AIDS - A new perspective.

Duesberg PH, Nicholson JM, Rasnick D, Fiala C, Bauer HH.
Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, Donner Laboratory, UC Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA.

This Article-in-Press has been withdrawn pending the results of an investigation. The editorial policy of Medical Hypotheses makes it clear that the journal considers "radical, speculative, and non-mainstream scientific ideas", and articles will only be acceptable if they are "coherent and clearly expressed." However, we have received serious expressions of concern about the quality of this article, which contains highly controversial opinions about the causes of AIDS, opinions that could potentially be damaging to global public health. Concern has also been expressed that the article contains potentially libelous material. Given these important signals of concern, we judge it correct to investigate the circumstances in which this article came to be published online. When the investigation and review have been completed we will issue a further statement. Until that time, the article has been removed from all Elsevier databases. The Publisher apologizes for any inconvenience this may cause. The full Elsevier Policy on Article Withdrawal can be found at http://www.elsevier.com/locate/withdrawalpolicy.

It says a lot when a fringe, non-peer reviewed, journal will not accept his paper.

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 11:04 AM

WITHDRAWN: HIV-AIDS hypothesis out of touch with South African AIDS - A new perspective.

Duesberg PH, Nicholson JM, Rasnick D, Fiala C, Bauer HH.
Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, Donner Laboratory, UC Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA.

This Article-in-Press has been withdrawn pending the results of an investigation. The editorial policy of Medical Hypotheses makes it clear that the journal considers "radical, speculative, and non-mainstream scientific ideas", and articles will only be acceptable if they are "coherent and clearly expressed." However, we have received serious expressions of concern about the quality of this article, which contains highly controversial opinions about the causes of AIDS, opinions that could potentially be damaging to global public health. Concern has also been expressed that the article contains potentially libelous material. Given these important signals of concern, we judge it correct to investigate the circumstances in which this article came to be published online. When the investigation and review have been completed we will issue a further statement. Until that time, the article has been removed from all Elsevier databases. The Publisher apologizes for any inconvenience this may cause. The full Elsevier Policy on Article Withdrawal can be found at http://www.elsevier.com/locate/withdrawalpolicy.

It says a lot when a fringe, non-peer reviewed, journal will not accept his paper.


Here's the article, if you want to read it.

HIV-AIDS hypothesis out of touch with South African AIDS – A new perspective

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 11:35 AM
Can Epidemiology Determine Whether Drugs or HIV Cause AIDS?

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 02:20 PM
I am going to start laying out the evidence that supports the link between HIV and AIDS. This will not be exhaustive, as I am sure no one wants to read through the library of data that supports these conclusions. I will only be presenting a small sampling of the VERY strong evidence.

EVIDENCE THAT HIV CAUSES AIDS

HIV fulfills Koch's postulates as the cause of AIDS.

Among many criteria used over the years to prove the link between putative pathogenic (disease-causing) agents and disease, perhaps the most-cited are Koch's postulates, developed in the late 19th century. Koch's postulates have been variously interpreted by many scientists, and modifications have been suggested to accommodate new technologies, particularly with regard to viruses (Harden. Pubbl Stn Zool Napoli [II] 1992;14:249; O'Brien, Goedert. Curr Opin Immunol 1996;8:613). However, the basic tenets remain the same, and for more than a century Koch's postulates, as listed below, have served as the litmus test for determining the cause of any epidemic disease:

1. Epidemiological association: the suspected cause must be strongly associated with the disease.
2. Isolation: the suspected pathogen can be isolated - and propagated - outside the host.
3. Transmission pathogenesis: transfer of the suspected pathogen to an uninfected host, man or animal, produces the disease in that host.

With regard to postulate #1, numerous studies from around the world show that virtually all AIDS patients are HIV-seropositive; that is they carry antibodies that indicate HIV infection. With regard to postulate #2, modern culture techniques have allowed the isolation of HIV in virtually all AIDS patients, as well as in almost all HIV-seropositive individuals with both early- and late-stage disease. In addition, the polymerase chain (PCR) and other sophisticated molecular techniques have enabled researchers to document the presence of HIV genes in virtually all patients with AIDS, as well as in individuals in earlier stages of HIV disease.

Postulate #3 has been fulfilled in tragic incidents involving three laboratory workers with no other risk factors who have developed AIDS or severe immunosuppression after accidental exposure to concentrated, cloned HIV in the laboratory. In all three cases, HIV was isolated from the infected individual, sequenced and shown to be the infecting strain of virus. In another tragic incident, transmission of HIV from a Florida dentist to six patients has been documented by genetic analyses of virus isolated from both the dentist and the patients. The dentist and three of the patients developed AIDS and died, and at least one of the other patients has developed AIDS. Five of the patients had no HIV risk factors other than multiple visits to the dentist for invasive procedures (O'Brien, Goedert. Curr Opin Immunol 1996;8:613; O'Brien, 1997; Ciesielski et al. Ann Intern Med 1994;121:886).

In addition, through December 1999, the CDC had received reports of 56 health care workers in the United States with documented, occupationally acquired HIV infection, of whom 25 have developed AIDS in the absence of other risk factors. The development of AIDS following known HIV seroconversion also has been repeatedly observed in pediatric and adult blood transfusion cases, in mother-to-child transmission, and in studies of hemophilia, injection-drug use and sexual transmission in which seroconversion can be documented using serial blood samples (CDC. HIV AIDS Surveillance Report 1999;11[2]:1; AIDS Knowledge Base, 1999). For example, in a 10-year study in the Netherlands, researchers followed 11 children who had become infected with HIV as neonates by small aliquots of plasma from a single HIV-infected donor. During the 10-year period, eight of the children died of AIDS. Of the remaining three children, all showed a progressive decline in cellular immunity, and two of the three had symptoms probably related to HIV infection (van den Berg et al. Acta Paediatr 1994;83:17).

Koch's postulates also have been fulfilled in animal models of human AIDS. Chimpanzees experimentally infected with HIV have developed severe immunosuppression and AIDS. In severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID) mice given a human immune system, HIV produces similar patterns of cell killing and pathogenesis as seen in people. HIV-2, a less virulent variant of HIV which causes AIDS in people, also causes an AIDS-like syndrome in baboons. More than a dozen strains of simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV), a close cousin of HIV, cause AIDS in Asian macaques. In addition, chimeric viruses known as SHIVs, which contain an SIV backbone with various HIV genes in place of the corresponding SIV genes, cause AIDS in macaques. Further strengthening the association of these viruses with AIDS, researchers have shown that SIV/SHIVs isolated from animals with AIDS cause AIDS when transmitted to uninfected animals (O'Neil et al. J Infect Dis 2000;182:1051; Aldrovandi et al. Nature 1993;363:732; Liska et al. AIDS Res Hum Retroviruses 1999;15:445; Locher et al. Arch Pathol Lab Med 1998;22:523; Hirsch et al. Virus Res 1994;32:183; Joag et al. J Virol 1996;70:3189).


This is the first post of many . . .

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 02:42 PM
AIDS and HIV infection are invariably linked in time, place and population group.

Historically, the occurence of AIDS in human populations around the world has closely followed the appearance of HIV. In the United States, the first cases of AIDS were reported in 1981 among homosexual men in New York and California, and retrospective examination of frozen blood samples from a U.S. cohort of gay men showed the presence of HIV antibodies as early as 1978, but not before then. Subsequently, in every region, country and city where AIDS has appeared, evidence of HIV infection has preceded AIDS by just a few years (CDC. MMWR 1981;30:250; CDC. MMWR 1981;30:305; Jaffe et al. Ann Intern Med 1985;103:210; U.S. Census Bureau; UNAIDS).

Many studies agree that only a single factor, HIV, predicts whether a person will develop AIDS.

Other viral infections, bacterial infections, sexual behavior patterns and drug abuse patterns do not predict who develops AIDS. Individuals from diverse backgrounds, including heterosexual men and women, homosexual men and women, hemophiliacs, sexual partners of hemophiliacs and transfusion recipients, injection-drug users and infants have all developed AIDS, with the only common denominator being their infection with HIV (NIAID, 1995).

In cohort studies, severe immunosuppression and AIDS-defining illnesses occur almost exclusively in individuals who are HIV-infected.

For example, analysis of data from more than 8,000 participants in the Multicenter AIDS Cohort Study (MACS) and the Women's Interagency HIV Study (WIHS) demonstrated that participants who were HIV-seropositive were 1,100 times more likely to develop an AIDS-associated illness than those who were HIV-seronegative. These overwhelming odds provide a clarity of association that is unusual in medical research (MACS and WIHS Principal Investigators, 2000).

In a Canadian cohort, investigators followed 715 homosexual men for a median of 8.6 years. Every case of AIDS in this cohort occurred in individuals who were HIV-seropositive. No AIDS-defining illnesses occurred in men who remained negative for HIV antibodies, despite the fact that these individuals had appreciable patterns of illicit drug use and receptive anal intercourse (Schechter et al. Lancet 1993;341:658).

Before the appearance of HIV, AIDS-related diseases such as PCP, KS and MAC were rare in developed countries; today, they are common in HIV-infected individuals.

Prior to the appearance of HIV, AIDS-related conditions such as Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia (PCP), Kaposi's sarcoma (KS) and disseminated infection with the Mycobacterium avium complex (MAC) were extraordinarily rare in the United States. In a 1967 survey, only 107 cases of PCP in the United States had been described in the medical literature, virtually all among individuals with underlying immunosuppressive conditions. Before the AIDS epidemic, the annual incidence of Kaposi's sarcoma in the United States was only 0.2 to 0.6 cases per million population, and only 32 individuals with disseminated MAC disease had been described in the medical literature (Safai. Ann NY Acad Sci 1984;437:373; Le Clair. Am Rev Respir Dis 1969;99:542; Masur. JAMA 1982;248:3013).

By the end of 1999, CDC had received reports of 166,368 HIV-infected patients in the United States with definitive diagnoses of PCP, 46,684 with definitive diagnoses of KS, and 41,873 with definitive diagnoses of disseminated MAC (personal communication).

In developing countries, patterns of both rare and endemic diseases have changed dramatically as HIV has spread, with a far greater toll now being exacted among the young and middle-aged, including well-educated members of the middle class.

In developing countries, the emergence of the HIV epidemic has dramatically changed patterns of disease in affected communities. As in developed countries, previously rare, "opportunistic" diseases such as PCP and certain forms of meningitis have become more commonplace. In addition, as HIV seroprevalence rates have risen, there have been significant increases in the burden of endemic conditions such as tuberculosis (TB), particularly among young people. For example, as HIV seroprevalence increased sharply in Blantyre, Malawi from 1986 to 1995, tuberculosis admissions at the city's main hospital rose more than 400 percent, with the largest increase in cases among children and young adults. In the rural Hlabisa District of South Africa, admissions to tuberculosis wards increased 360 percent from 1992 to 1998, concomitant with a steep rise in HIV seroprevalence. High rates of mortality due to endemic conditions such as TB, diarrheal diseases and wasting syndromes, formerly confined to the elderly and malnourished, are now common among HIV-infected young and middle-aged people in many developing countries (UNAIDS, 2000; Harries et al. Int J Tuberc Lung Dis 1997;1:346; Floyd et al. JAMA 1999;282:1087).

In studies conducted in both developing and developed countries, death rates are markedly higher among HIV-seropositive individuals than among HIV-seronegative individuals.

For example, Nunn and colleagues (BMJ 1997;315:767) assessed the impact of HIV infection over five years in a rural population in the Masaka District of Uganda. Among 8,833 individuals of all ages who had an unambiguous result on testing for HIV-antibodies (either 2 or 3 different test kits were used for blood samples from each individual), HIV-seropositive people were 16 times more likely to die over five years than HIV-seronegative people (see table). Among individuals ages 25 to 34, HIV-seropositive people were 27 times more likely to die than HIV-seronegative people.

In another study in Uganda, 19,983 adults in the rural Rakai District were followed for 10 to 30 months (Sewankambo et al. AIDS 2000;14:2391). In this cohort, HIV-seropositive people were 20 times more likely to die than HIV-seronegative people during 31,432 person-years of observation.

Similar findings have emerged from other studies (Boerma et al. AIDS 1998;12(suppl 1):S3); for example,

* in Tanzania, HIV-seropositive people were 12.9 time more likely to die over two years than HIV-seronegative people (Borgdorff et al. Genitourin Med 1995;71:212)
* in Malawi, mortality over three years among children who survived the first year of life was 9.5 times higher among HIV-seropositive children than among HIV-seronegative children (Taha et al. Pediatr Infect Dis J 1999;18:689)
* in Rwanda, mortality was 21 times higher for HIV-seropositive children than for HIV-seronegative children after five years (Spira et al. Pediatrics 1999;14:e56). Among the mothers of these children, mortality was 9 times higher among HIV-seropositive women than among HIV-seronegative women in four years of follow-up (Leroy et al. J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr Hum Retrovirol 1995;9:415).
* in Cote d'Ivoire, HIV-seropositive individuals with pulmonary tuberculosis (TB) were 17 times more likely to die within six months than HIV-seronegative individuals with pulmonary TB (Ackah et al. Lancet 1995; 345:607).
* in the former Zaire (now the Democratic Republic of Congo), HIV-infected infants were 11 times more likely to die from diarrhea than uninfected infants (Thea et al. NEJM 1993;329:1696).
* in South Africa, the death rate for children hospitalized with severe lower respiratory tract infections was 6.5 times higher for HIV-infected infants than for uninfected children (Madhi et al. Clin Infect Dis 2000;31:170).

Kilmarx and colleagues (Lancet 2000; 356:770) recently reported data on HIV infection and mortality in a cohort of female commercial sex workers in Chiang Rai, Thailand. Among 500 women enrolled in the study between 1991 and 1994, the mortality rate through October 1998 among women who were HIV-infected at enrollment (59 deaths among 160 HIV-infected women) was 52.7 times higher than among women who remained uninfected with HIV (2 deaths among 306 uninfected women). The mortality rate among women who became infected during the study (7 deaths among 34 seroconverting women) was 22.5 higher than among persistently uninfected women. Among the HIV-infected women, only 3 of whom received antiretroviral medications, all reported causes of death were associated with immunosuppression, whereas the reported causes of death of the two uninfected women were postpartum amniotic embolism and gunshot wound.

Excess mortality among HIV-seropositive people also has been repeatedly observed in studies in developed countries, perhaps most dramatically among hemophiliacs. For example, Darby et al. (Nature 1995;377:79) studied 6,278 hemophiliacs living in the United Kingdom during the period 1977-91. Among 2,448 individuals with severe hemophilia, the annual death rate was stable at 8 per 1,000 during 1977-84. While death rates remained stable at 8 per 1,000 from 1985-1992 among HIV-seronegative persons with severe hemophilia, deaths rose steeply among those who had become HIV-seropositive following HIV-tainted transfusions during 1979-1986, reaching 81 per 1,000 in 1991-92. Among 3,830 individuals with mild or moderate hemophilia, the pattern was similar, with an initial death rate of 4 per 1,000 in 1977-84 that remained stable among HIV-seronegative individuals but rose to 85 per 1,000 in 1991-92 among seropositive individuals.

Similar data have emerged from the Multicenter Hemophilia Cohort Study. Among 1,028 hemophiliacs followed for a median of 10.3 years, HIV-infected individuals (n=321) were 11 times more likely to die than HIV-negative subjects (n=707), with the dose of Factor VIII having no effect on survival in either group (Goedert. Lancet 1995;346:1425).

In the Multicenter AIDS Cohort Study (MACS), a 16-year study of 5,622 homosexual and bisexual men, 1,668 of 2,761 HIV-seropositive men have died (60 percent), 1,547 after a diagnosis of AIDS. In contrast, among 2,861 HIV-seronegative participants, only 66 men (2.3 percent) have died (A. Munoz, MACS, personal communication).
All citations are listed . . .

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 03:24 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Wed 01/25/12 03:26 PM
HIV can be detected in virtually everyone with AIDS.

Recently developed sensitive testing methods, including the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and improved culture techniques, have enabled researchers to find HIV in patients with AIDS with few exceptions. HIV has been repeatedly isolated from the blood, semen and vaginal secretions of patients with AIDS, findings consistent with the epidemiologic data demonstrating AIDS transmission via sexual activity and contact with infected blood (Hammer et al. J Clin Microbiol 1993;31:2557; Jackson et al. J Clin Microbiol 1990;28:16).

Numerous studies of HIV-infected people have shown that high levels of infectious HIV, viral antigens, and HIV nucleic acids (DNA and RNA) in the body predict immune system deterioration and an increased risk for developing AIDS. Conversely, patients with low levels of virus have a much lower risk of developing AIDS.

For example, in an anlysis of 1,604 HIV-infected men in the Multicenter AIDS Cohort Study (MACS), the risk of a patient developing AIDS with six years was strongly associated with levels of HIV RNA in the plasma as measured by a sensitive test known as the branched-DNA signal-amplification assay (bDNA):






Similar associations between increasing HIV RNA levels and a greater risk of disease progression have been observed in HIV-infected children in both developed and developing countries (Palumbo et al. JAMA 1998;279:756; Taha et al. AIDS 2000;14:453).

In the very small proportion of untreated HIV-infected individuals whose disease progresses very slowly, the amount of HIV in the blood and lymph nodes is significantly lower than in HIV-infected people whose disease progression is more typical (Pantaleo et al. NEJM 1995;332:209; Cao et al. NEJM 1995;332:201; Barker et al. Blood 1998;92:3105).

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 03:26 PM
Edited by Spidercmb on Wed 01/25/12 03:32 PM

This is the first post of many . . .


Will any of your posts cover this?




"WARNING: RETROVIR (ZIDOVUDINE) [=AZT] MAY BE ASSOCIATED WITH HEMATOLOGIC TOXICITY INCLUDING GRANULOCYTOPENIA AND SEVERE ANEMIA PARTICULARLY IN PATIENTS WITH ADVANCED HIV DISEASE (SEE WARNINGS).
PROLONGED USE OF RETROVIR [=AZT] HAS BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH SYMPTOMATIC MYOPATHY SIMILAR TO THAT PRODUCED BY HUMAN IMMUNODEFICIENCY VIRUS. RARE OCCURRENCES OF LACTIC ACIDOSIS IN THE ABSENCE OF HYPOXEMIA, AND SEVERE HEPATOMEGALY WITH STEATOSIS HAVE BEEN REPORTED WITH THE USE OF ANTIRETROVIRAL NUCLEOSIDE ANALOGUES, INCLUDING RETROVIR AND ZALCITABINE, AND ARE POTENTIALLY FATAL (SEE WARNINGS)."


You can't do a legitimate study, if the patients who are HIV positive are given AZT, which causes all of the symptoms associated with AIDS.

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 03:31 PM

HIV can be detected in virtually everyone with AIDS.

Recently developed sensitive testing methods, including the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and improved culture techniques, have enabled researchers to find HIV in patients with AIDS with few exceptions. HIV has been repeatedly isolated from the blood, semen and vaginal secretions of patients with AIDS, findings consistent with the epidemiologic data demonstrating AIDS transmission via sexual activity and contact with infected blood (Hammer et al. J Clin Microbiol 1993;31:2557; Jackson et al. J Clin Microbiol 1990;28:16).

Numerous studies of HIV-infected people have shown that high levels of infectious HIV, viral antigens, and HIV nucleic acids (DNA and RNA) in the body predict immune system deterioration and an increased risk for developing AIDS. Conversely, patients with low levels of virus have a much lower risk of developing AIDS.

For example, in an anlysis of 1,604 HIV-infected men in the Multicenter AIDS Cohort Study (MACS), the risk of a patient developing AIDS with six years was strongly associated with levels of HIV RNA in the plasma as measured by a sensitive test known as the branched-DNA signal-amplification assay (bDNA):






Similar associations between increasing HIV RNA levels and a greater risk of disease progression have been observed in HIV-infected children in both developed and developing countries (Palumbo et al. JAMA 1998;279:756; Taha et al. AIDS 2000;14:453).

In the very small proportion of untreated HIV-infected individuals whose disease progresses very slowly, the amount of HIV in the blood and lymph nodes is significantly lower than in HIV-infected people whose disease progression is more typical (Pantaleo et al. NEJM 1995;332:209; Cao et al. NEJM 1995;332:201; Barker et al. Blood 1998;92:3105).



So you are going to ignore the more recent study that I posted, which showed that HIV tests were wildly inaccurate, particularly for people of African descent?

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 03:42 PM
The availability of potent combinations of drugs that specifically block HIV replication has dramatically improved the prognosis for HIV-infected individuals. Such an effect would not be seen if HIV did not have a central role in causing AIDS.

Clinical trials have shown that potent three-drug combinations of anti-HIV drugs, known as highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART), can significantly reduce the incidence of AIDS and death among HIV-infected individuals as compared to previously available HIV treatment regimens (Hammer et al. NEJM 1997;337:725; Cameron et al. Lancet 1998;351:543).

Use of these potent anti-HIV combination therapies has contributed to dramatic reductions in the incidence of AIDS and AIDS-related deaths in populations where these drugs are widely available, among both adults and children (Figure 1; CDC. HIV AIDS Surveillance Report 1999;11[2]:1; Palella et al. NEJM 1998;338:853; Mocroft et al. Lancet 1998;352:1725; Mocroft et al. Lancet 2000;356:291; Vittinghoff et al. J Infect Dis 1999;179:717; Detels et al. JAMA 1998;280:1497; de Martino et al. JAMA 2000;284:190; CASCADE Collaboration. Lancet 2000;355:1158; Hogg et al. CMAJ 1999;160:659; Schwarcz et al. Am J Epidemiol 2000;152:178; Kaplan et al. Clin Infect Dis 2000;30:S5; McNaghten et al. AIDS 1999;13:1687;).

For example, in a prospective study of more than 7,300 HIV-infected patients in 52 European outpatient clinics, the incidence of new AIDS-defining illnesses declined from 30.7 per 100 patient-years of observation in 1994 (before the availability of HAART) to 2.5 per 100 patient years in 1998, when the majority of patients received HAART (Mocroft et al. Lancet 2000;356:291).

Among HIV-infected patients who receive anti-HIV therapy, those whose viral loads are driven to low levels are much less likely to develop AIDS or die than patients who do not respond to therapy. Such an effect would not be seen if HIV did not have a central role in causing AIDS.

Clinical trials in both HIV-infected children and adults have demonstrated a link between a good virologic response to therapy (i.e. much less virus in the body) and a reduced risk of developing AIDS or dying (Montaner et al. AIDS 1998;12:F23; Palumbo et al. JAMA 1998;279:756; O'Brien et al. NEJM 1996;334:426; Katzenstein et al. NEJM 1996;335:1091; Marschner et al. J Infect Dis 1998;177:40; Hammer et al. NEJM 1997;337:725; Cameron et al. Lancet 1998;351:543).

This effect has also been seen in routine clinical practice. For example, in an analysis of 2,674 HIV-infected patients who started highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) in 1995-1998, 6.6 percent of patients who achieved and maintained undetectable viral loads (<400 copies/mL of blood) developed AIDS or died within 30 months, compared with 20.1 percent of patients who never achieved undetectable concentrations (Ledergerber et al. Lancet 1999;353:863).

Nearly everyone with AIDS has antibodies to HIV.

A survey of 230,179 AIDS patients in the United States revealed only 299 HIV-seronegative individuals. An evaluation of 172 of these 299 patients found 131 actually to be seropositive; an additional 34 died before their serostatus could be confirmed (Smith et al. N Engl J Med 1993;328:373).

Numerous serosurveys show that AIDS is common in populations where many individuals have HIV antibodies. Conversely, in populations with low seroprevalence of HIV antibodies, AIDS is extremely rare.

For example, in the southern African country of Zimbabwe (population 11.4 million), more than 25 percent of adults ages 15 to 49 are estimated to be HIV antibody-positive, based on numerous studies. As of November 1999, more than 74,000 cases of AIDS in Zimbabwe had been reported to the World Health Organization (WHO). In contrast, Madagascar, an island country off the southeast coast of Africa (population 15.1 million) with a very low HIV seroprevalence rate, reported only 37 cases of AIDS to WHO through November 1999. Yet, other sexually transmitted diseases, notably syphilis, are common in Madagascar, suggesting that conditions are ripe for the spread of HIV and AIDS if the virus becomes entrenched in that country (U.S. Census Bureau; UNAIDS, 2000; WHO. Wkly Epidemiol Rec 1999;74:1; Behets et al. Lancet 1996;347:831).

The specific immunologic profile that typifies AIDS - a persistently low CD4+ T-cell count - is extraordinarily rare in the absence of HIV infection or other known cause of immunosuppression.

For example, in the NIAID-supported Multicenter AIDS Cohort Study (MACS), 22,643 CD4+ T-cell determinations in 2,713 HIV-seronegative homosexual and bisexual men revealed only one individual with a CD4+ T-cell count persistently lower than 300 cells/mm3 of blood, and this individual was receiving immunosuppressive therapy. Similar results have been reported from other studies (Vermund et al. NEJM 1993;328:442; NIAID, 1995).

Newborn infants have no behavioral risk factors for AIDS, yet many children born to HIV-infected mothers have developed AIDS and died.

Only newborns who become HIV-infected before or during birth, during breastfeeding, or (rarely) following exposure to HIV-tainted blood or blood products after birth, go on to develop the profound immunosuppression that leads to AIDS. Babies who are not HIV-infected do not develop AIDS. In the United States, 8,718 cases of AIDS among children younger than age 13 had been reported to the CDC as of December 31, 1999. Cumulative U.S. AIDS deaths among individuals younger than age 15 numbered 5,044 through December 31, 1999. Globally, UNAIDS estimates that 480,000 child deaths due to AIDS occurred in 1999 alone (CDC. HIV/AIDS Surveillance Report 1999;11[2]:1; UNAIDS. AIDS epidemic update: June 2000).

Because many HIV-infected mothers abuse recreational drugs, some have argued that maternal drug use itself causes pediatric AIDS. However, studies have consistently shown that babies who are not HIV-infected do not develop AIDS, regardless of their mothers' drug use (European Collaborative Study. Lancet 1991;337:253; European Collaborative Study. Pediatr Infect Dis J 1997;16:1151; Abrams et al. Pediatrics 1995;96:451).

For example, a majority of the HIV-infected, pregnant women enrolled in the European Collaborative Study are current or former injection drug users. In this ongoing study, mothers and their babies are followed from birth in 10 centers in Europe. In a paper in Lancet, study investigators reported that none of 343 HIV-seronegative children born to HIV-seropositive mothers had developed AIDS or persistent immune deficiency. In contrast, among 64 seropositive children, 30 percent presented with AIDS within 6 months of age or with oral candidiasis followed rapidly by the onset of AIDS. By their first birthday, 17 percent died of HIV-related diseases (European Collaborative Study. Lancet 1991;337:253).

In a study in New York, investigators followed 84 HIV-infected and 248 HIV-uninfected infants, all born to HIV-seropositive mothers. The mothers of the two groups of infants were equally likely to be injection drug users (47 percent vs. 50 percent), and had similar rates of alcohol, tobacco, cocaine, heroin and methadone use. Of the 84 HIV-infected children, 22 died during a median follow-up period of 27.6 months, including 20 infants who died before their second birthday. Twenty-one of these deaths were classified as AIDS-related. Among the 248 uninfected children, only one death (due to child abuse) was reported during a median follow-up period of 26.1 months (Abrams et al. Pediatrics 1995;96:451).

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 03:47 PM
Bushidobillyclub,

The truth is, you have made up your mind. You haven't read any of Peter Duesberg's papers, you don't know his arguments against HIV=AIDS and you are ignoring the research I've already posted.

Duesberg has disputed a lot of what you are posting or the research your posts are based on. The major studies to confirm that HIV caused AIDS showed a link between drug use and AIDS, but they gave everyone with HIV the drug AZT. AZT is extremely toxic and causes AIDS symptoms, as is noted on the label for AZT.

Now stop and think about this, because it's the last thing I have to say on the subject. I ask you, please be open minded and think about this: How can a study be trusted, if all of the HIV positive patients were given an extremely toxic drug, while they continued using recreational drugs? Do you really think that the results are reliable? As professor Duesberg pointed out, without controlling the variables, the results could indicate that AIDS is caused by HIV, Drugs alone or HIV + drugs or AZT alone or HIV + AZT or AZT + Drugs or HIV + AZT + Drugs. Professor Duesberg wants the study to be re-done, but this time properly, with a control group of HIV positive patients who were drug free and weren't on AZT. He also wants recreational drug use to be tracked among the HIV positive and negative groups. Is that so crazy really? To ask that a study be done to control all of the variables? I linked his paper explaining the problems with the research that established the link between HIV and AIDS earlier, I hope you'll read it.

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 03:49 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Wed 01/25/12 03:52 PM
Will any of your posts cover this?
Yes, first the evidence, then the debunking of specious claims.


Have patience, I dont post anything I have not read, and this is a new topic for me so it takes time for me to read through all of the evidence.

Also I am done for the night, I never take my activism home with me . . . just cant quite the brain to go to bed with science running through it.

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 06:04 PM
I'm abandoning this thread. Information over load. I can't and don't want to read this stuff.


no photo
Wed 01/25/12 06:38 PM

I'm abandoning this thread. Information over load. I can't and don't want to read this stuff.


Its hard work understanding science.

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 07:06 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Wed 01/25/12 07:07 PM


I'm abandoning this thread. Information over load. I can't and don't want to read this stuff.


Its hard work understanding science.


Not really, if you are interested in all that mental stuff you can read and understand it if you apply your focus to it.

It's just not where my interest lies.

Hard work is trying to focus on something you are not interested in.






Redykeulous's photo
Wed 01/25/12 08:46 PM
Of the many thousands of peer review articles in hundreds of journals that I can search through my school library have no peer review aricles for Duesberg from 1997 forward.

I did find the following on the open web however,


http://www.nature.com/news/paper-denying-hiv-aids-link-secures-publication-1.9737

Paper denying HIV–AIDS link secures publication
Work by infamous AIDS contrarian passes peer review.
• Zoë Corbyn
05 January 2012

Peter Duesberg has for more than 20 years challenged the idea that HIV causes AIDS.

S. Ragan/AP

A controversial research paper that argued “there is as yet no proof that HIV causes AIDS" and met with a storm of protest when it was published in 2009, leading to its withdrawal, has been republished in a revised form, this time in the peer-reviewed literature.
The reworked version of the paper, led by Peter Duesberg of the University of California, Berkeley, who is well known for denying the link between HIV and AIDS, was published in the Italian Journal of Anatomy and Embryology (IJAE) last month1.

The manuscript was examined by two peer reviewers, one of them the journal's editor-in-chief, Paolo Romagnoli, an expert in cell anatomy at the University of Florence, Italy. But leading AIDS researchers and campaigners question how the paper could have passed peer review, and say that publishing it in a minor journal known to few does not give it scientific credibility or legitimacy.

"In my view this paper is scientific nonsense and should not have passed peer review. The thesis that HIV does not cause AIDS has no scientific credibility," says Nathan Geffen of the South Africa-based Treatment Action Campaign, who previously raised concerns about the article.

Romagnoli says he decided to review the revised paper because the original was withdrawn by Medical Hypotheses not for “flawed or falsified data” but for “highly controversial opinions” — which the IJAE's readers can make up their own minds about.

“Speculative conclusions are not a reason for rejection, provided they are correlated with the data presented,” he says.

Potentially damaging
The paper's initial publication in Medical Hypotheses caused a furore, with attention being drawn to the fact that the journal was not peer reviewed despite being listed in the MEDLINE citation database.

Related content
• AIDS researcher cleared of misconduct
• AIDS contrarian ignored warnings of scientific misconduct
• Editor says no to peer review for controversial journal
• More related content

Retrospective peer review later led to the paper's permanent withdrawal from Medical Hypotheses. The grounds stipulated in the withdrawal notice were concerns over the paper's quality and that it contained opinions about the causes of AIDS “that could potentially be damaging to global public health”2...


The article continues but the above was all I needed to confirm why I was unable to find Duesberg in the current peer review literature.

It's not all that uncommon to find conflicting views supported by conflicting research about new hypothesis or ideas. Since I do see that occuring, I have no reason to think Duesberg's research, or ideas would not be included if they passed the review process.

Fifteen years is a long time to go without publishing anything new through the peer review process. To suddenly have an article appear, in one of the least prestigious journals, only to find adverse action after publication, suggests that the good Dr. Duesberg has nothing new to offer and the old stuff has been proven invalid by more current research.

no photo
Wed 01/25/12 09:10 PM
Edited by Spidercmb on Wed 01/25/12 09:10 PM

Of the many thousands of peer review articles in hundreds of journals that I can search through my school library have no peer review aricles for Duesberg from 1997 forward.

I did find the following on the open web however,


http://www.nature.com/news/paper-denying-hiv-aids-link-secures-publication-1.9737

Paper denying HIV–AIDS link secures publication
Work by infamous AIDS contrarian passes peer review.
• Zoë Corbyn
05 January 2012

Peter Duesberg has for more than 20 years challenged the idea that HIV causes AIDS.

S. Ragan/AP

A controversial research paper that argued “there is as yet no proof that HIV causes AIDS" and met with a storm of protest when it was published in 2009, leading to its withdrawal, has been republished in a revised form, this time in the peer-reviewed literature.
The reworked version of the paper, led by Peter Duesberg of the University of California, Berkeley, who is well known for denying the link between HIV and AIDS, was published in the Italian Journal of Anatomy and Embryology (IJAE) last month1.

The manuscript was examined by two peer reviewers, one of them the journal's editor-in-chief, Paolo Romagnoli, an expert in cell anatomy at the University of Florence, Italy. But leading AIDS researchers and campaigners question how the paper could have passed peer review, and say that publishing it in a minor journal known to few does not give it scientific credibility or legitimacy.

"In my view this paper is scientific nonsense and should not have passed peer review. The thesis that HIV does not cause AIDS has no scientific credibility," says Nathan Geffen of the South Africa-based Treatment Action Campaign, who previously raised concerns about the article.

Romagnoli says he decided to review the revised paper because the original was withdrawn by Medical Hypotheses not for “flawed or falsified data” but for “highly controversial opinions” — which the IJAE's readers can make up their own minds about.

“Speculative conclusions are not a reason for rejection, provided they are correlated with the data presented,” he says.

Potentially damaging
The paper's initial publication in Medical Hypotheses caused a furore, with attention being drawn to the fact that the journal was not peer reviewed despite being listed in the MEDLINE citation database.

Related content
• AIDS researcher cleared of misconduct
• AIDS contrarian ignored warnings of scientific misconduct
• Editor says no to peer review for controversial journal
• More related content

Retrospective peer review later led to the paper's permanent withdrawal from Medical Hypotheses. The grounds stipulated in the withdrawal notice were concerns over the paper's quality and that it contained opinions about the causes of AIDS “that could potentially be damaging to global public health”2...


The article continues but the above was all I needed to confirm why I was unable to find Duesberg in the current peer review literature.

It's not all that uncommon to find conflicting views supported by conflicting research about new hypothesis or ideas. Since I do see that occuring, I have no reason to think Duesberg's research, or ideas would not be included if they passed the review process.

Fifteen years is a long time to go without publishing anything new through the peer review process. To suddenly have an article appear, in one of the least prestigious journals, only to find adverse action after publication, suggests that the good Dr. Duesberg has nothing new to offer and the old stuff has been proven invalid by more current research.


Louis Pasteur wasted 21 years trying to prove that airborne bacteria caused illnesses...until it was finally accepted by the scientific community. The number of years that Professor Duesberg has spent trying to change the scientific communities minds speaks more to their unwillingness to listen to new and challenging ideas and far less about his skills as a scientist than you seem to believe.

Also, Professor Duesberg has published ground breaking PEER REVIEWED work on Cancer. Several papers in fact since 2000. His theory on cancer has earned him quite a bit of respect.

Sin_and_Sorrow's photo
Wed 01/25/12 09:52 PM
Just tossing this out there..

But is it not possible that you are both right?

Dullsburg or whatever..

..and Bushido's stuff.

Can they not both be right, even if only in some aspect?

no photo
Thu 01/26/12 06:10 AM

Just tossing this out there..

But is it not possible that you are both right?

...

Can they not both be right, even if only in some aspect?


We don't know what the truth is yet. That's my position. When you have a large number of scientists who are vociferously objecting to the theory that HIV=AIDS, I think that says something. I think it's also important to understand that nothing in science is ever proven. Professor Duesberg has some very reasonable objections to the research that was done to establish the link between HIV and AIDS. With all of the millions being put into HIV research every year, it would be nice to see him get enough to do the research and prove for once and for all if HIV alone does cause AIDS or if HIV requires a co-factor (A large number of scientists feel that HIV requires co-factors to be deadly) or if HIV isn't involved in AIDS at all.


Dullsburg or whatever..


yawn