Jesus did die, he died for each and everyone of our sins. He defeated death though and was resurrected. Through Jesus we will be resurrected again as well.

Cowboy ...aren't priest people....so why didn't you run to a priest instead of a Doctor

this is exactly why when the religious runs to a Doctor ...they have a lack of faith in their God

if Jesus died...then that means that he is not God since you claim that God never died

This truly can't work Cowboy.

Just stop and think about it for even a brief moment.

Can an all-powerful invincible God ever LOSE?

No, you would never stand for God losing at anything.

Therefore, it would be impossible for God to have lost his only begotten son if it was God's PLAN that he should be resurrected.

There could never have been the remotest chance that Jesus could have "Lost" to Satan, or to anything.

So to even suggest that he could have lost, or was ever at risk at any moment, would suggest that God could potentially LOSE at something.

So the story makes no sense in light of the fact that this God is supposed to be invincible can could never LOSE at anything.

It makes no sense to say that a God "defeated" something that could have never been a threat to him in the first place.

That flies in the very face of what this God is supposed to be.

Therefore, these stories have a totally unsolvable problem.

Is there a solution?

Sure.

But only ONE.

The stories must necessarily be man-made myths.

That's the only solution that solves this problem.

The Path.

Follow it and you find God.

You have to go to heaven to find Jesus.

God is right there on the path with you.

Jesus did not 'resurrect' himself.

God did that.

He could die after doing the following.

Philippians 2:7

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men



No he can't, but Satan thinks he can and will.



Doesn't have to be a threat to defeat it lol.

Definition of defeat - to win victory over

Jesus defeated death for us, he won victory over death for us.

Why would what Satan thinks be important to anyone? Especially to God? Why would God have a need to prove anything to Satan?




A victory over death for us?

That makes no sense Cowboy.

If this God is supposed to be the supreme designer and architect of life and he didn't want people to die he could have just created them in a way where they wouldn't die.

The whole premise of this religion is that "sin" is what causes spiritual death. The wages of sin is death.

However, "sin" is nothing more than disobedience to the will of God. Therefore death is nothing other than a punishment for disobeying this God.

If this God wanted to do away with death for humans all he would need to do is change his mind about his punishment for disobedience.

Moreover, what would be the point in having his son supposedly "die" to pay for people's disobedience?

Especially when, as you point out, Jesus even defied spiritual death and was supposedly resurrection and ascended to Heaven. He clearly wouldn't have paid the price of spiritual death for anyone.

Being resurrected from physical death and then ascending to Heaven as a living spirit is precisely what Christians dream of.

So Jesus wouldn't have "paid" any price for anyone's sins. On the contrary he got won the ultimate prize. Not only did he receive everlasting spiritual life, but he's supposedly even gets to be the Kind of Kinds and Lord of Lords even in Heaven.

Sounds like he won the prize that Satan was after.

And you're acting like as if he "died"?

Wasn't even attributed to Jesus to having said something like, "Don't worry about those who can kill the body, but rather those who can destroy the spirit?"

Well, a dead body is meaningless. Only a dead spirit would be the ultimate prices to pay. And clearly according to these stories Jesus did not pay the ultimate price of spiritual death.

Therefore, he could not possibly have page the "Wages of Sin" for anyone.

Again, the story simply doesn't make sense. It's full of holes.

Trying to explain the story as if it holds any verbatim merit always ends in a paradox and contradiction.

The only explanation that makes any sense at all is that the story is just a man-made superstition. Now that makes sense.

It's the only explanation that makes any sense.

Jesus is supposed to come back to kill all the Christians during The Rapture, he's probably still angry due to that "nailing him to the cross incident"

since flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God this means that when the rapture takes place only the ghosts of the Christians will be taken but their corrupible bodies will be left behind, I bet that's going to be a weird sight, seeing a bunch of dead bodies floating everywhere...sounds like one of those bad horror movies they show on the syfy channel

but anyway sure Christians can be a pain but then again who isn't....so if Jesus or Aliens or E.T. the extra-terrestrial think they are going to come and kill our Christians without a fight they are sadly delusional

so lock and load you unbelievers...because when the rapture comes. we're going to have to pull out a can of whoop as_

Think about this!
____________
Christ, in terms of the Christian philosophy, is the human ideal. He personifies that which men should strive to emulate. Yet, according to the Christian mythology, he died on the cross not for his own sins but for the sins of the nonideal people. In other words, a man of perfect virtue was sacrificed for men who are vicious and who are expected or supposed to accept that sacrifice. If I were a Christian, nothing could make me more indignant than that: the notion of sacrificing the ideal to the nonideal, or virtue to vice. And it is in the name of that symbol that men are asked to sacrifice themselves for their inferiors. That is precisely how the symbolism is used.

Playboy Interview: Ayn Rand
Playboy, March 1964
_______________

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/religion.html

I absolutely agree with this line of thinking. There are so many other ways to view this as well.

For example, the idea is that no moral man is truly worthy of heaven (or God's Love) on his own merit. Every man who is permitted access to the Kingdom of God is only granted that privilege by grace, not by merit.

Moreover, not only would they be granted this privilege by grace, but a price had to be paid as well. The very son of God had to physically suffer much anguish and pain and experience death and a trip to hell in order to pay for this grace.

So what does this mean? This means that every mortal soul who manages to qualify for this grace will be granted into an eternal paradise where the only reason their unworthy butt is there is because God had to have his son nailed to a pole on their behalf. Moreover, they weren't even allowed in until they have acknowledge this to be a fact. In other words, the only way to get into heaven is to acknowledge that you indeed do not deserve to be there.

This is a bit of an oxymoron in any case. Why would a God be inviting undeserving people into his eternal paradise? People who are not worthy of being there on their own merit?

And what has truly changed about them? If they were unworthy people before they accepted this sacrifice to "save" their souls, then they are probably still unworthy people afterward. After all, people supposedly cannot become worthy in their own right no matter what they do. Surely accepting having God's son butchered on a pole to pay for their sins cannot make them worthy. If they could become worthy by something as simple as this, then surely they could also become worthy by simply deciding to straighten up their own lives and become nice people.

What would be the difference? In the end they are the ones who supposedly need to make a choice about something. Why force them to choose to accept a bloody sacrifice on their behalf? Why not just simply ask them to choose to be good people? That actually makes more sense overall.

But no, that can't work in this religion because the religion has already shot itself in the foot by proclaiming that no man can make the choice to be a nice person on his own.

Therefore people who are choosing to accept this sacrificial atonement for their sins, obviously can't even choose to be good people if they wanted to. Therefore they necessarily must be making this choice for one of two other reasons:

1. They fear spiritual death and are looking for a way to avoid it.

2. They lust for eternal life and are desperately seeking this gift.

They can't simply be choosing to be good people, because if they could make that choice they could have done that without the need for any blood sacrifice having been made on their behalf.

All that would be required to gain entrance to heaven is to choose to be a good person. But that is totally forbidden! This religion demands that this is totally out of the question and you can never gain access to eternal life or the Kingdom of God by just choosing to be a nice person. This violates what is required to gain membership into this cult.

~~~~

This is why we can know beyond any shadow of a doubt that this religion is indeed nothing more than a man-made cult. It simply has to be. No all-wise, loving, benevolent God would have ever created a situation where the only way to gain access to his eternal paradise could only be had either through a fear of spiritual death and a desire to avoid it, or through a lust for eternal life and a desire to win it through grace.

A God who is supposedly concerned with people choosing to live moral lives, would have designed a system where people could do just that. They would need to earn their own grace by choosing to be highly moral people. Not by choosing to accept some blood sacrifice made on their behalf because they are innately incapable of becoming moral creatures.

The very idea that humans are incapable of becoming moral creatures on their own merit can only suggest that their creator failed to give them the necessarily resources to become such creatures.

So this whole religion is basically dependent upon the ineptitude of their fictitious creator to even work.

It simply can't be made to work with a creator who actually creates beings who are incapable of doing what is required to appease his desires on their own merit.

It's clearly just a cult scam that tries to convince people that if they don't join and support the cult they will be shunned by the creator of the universe and face spiritual death whilst all the members of the cult happily move on to eternal life in paradise.

This cult even threatens people with the unquenchable hell fire, wailing, and the gnashing of teeth, and eternal damnation if they fail to join the cult and support all of its superstitions.

It has absolutely nothing to do with an supposed "benevolent" God, because there is nothing "benevolent" about this religion. It s vicious fear-based cult. Join the cult, support their specific religious and lifestyle bigotries in the name of God, or be damned to hell!

And there is no other way to get to God!

All other religions are proclaimed to be false.

But don't you dare proclaim that this religion is false or you'll be accused of "religion bashing" and "insulting" its members.

Yet it has absolutely no problem at all with "bashing" all other religions by proclaiming that they are necessarily false because this cult claims to be the "only way" to get to God.

It's a hypocritical oxymoron in so many ways that it's truly unbelievable that it has gotten such a foothold on the imagination of humanity.

And to think that people actually believe in it on "faith" is even more astounding.

I would never wish to place my "faith" in a religion that proclaims that I can't even chose to be a good person on my own merit.

Because he loves them, he loves us, he loves every person that has or ever will walk this planet.



With accepting Jesus as lord and savour, you are then giving him control of you and your life. You are proclaiming to be faithful to him. And actions speak louder then words. If you proclaim Jesus as your lord and you do no follow his teachings, your words are then in vein and not truly ment, for if one accepts Jesus as Lord, they will do there best to obey him.



How about the true reason? They love our father and wish to praise and worship him for eternity. They wish to abode in the same place as the father and glorify him every second of they day. Getting to Heaven isn't for gaining of anything for oneself. It is to be in the paradise right there with God praising him in all his greatness for ever and ever.



You stated "blood sacrifice" many times, so I'll only respond to it once. It wasn't specifically the blood sacrifice in exact. There was no "blood sacrifice" in that exact sense. Blood sacrifices were needed in the old covenant and Jesus fulfilled that covenant giving us a new which does not require blood sacrifice. Jesus defeated death for us, that is what is great about Jesus' crucifixion, his resurrection. Defeating death for us ever more. And God already tried that system you speak of. The people of this planet failed at that, so he made a new covenant with us.



Not true. He gave us FREE WILL. That is will not influenced directly by anything but what that person allows. How is it the creators fault when the creation CHOOSES to disobey? If he would have done anything to stop the possibility, we would not have free will. We would be nothing but puppets on a stick.

you still have never explained why a Being that was created perfect chooses to become Evil!
It's a Contradiction that Free Will doesn't explain!
Something perfect cannot become Imperfect!
It is impossible!
Unless the Creator wasn't able to create a totally perfect Being,or was unable to prevent Evil,or couldn't foresee the Future Events!
Each not the Attributes of a Omniscient,Omnipotent All-Loving Creator!

He created them with a gross inability to resist sin because he loves them?

That makes no sense to me.




I thought this God didn't want puppets?

If God wanted to simply control people he could have just created puppets.

Again, you're explanations make no sense to me.



But if they already have the ability to choose to be highly moral people, then they could do that on their own.

You are proclaiming here that they must make a choice to follow the teachings of Jesus, otherwise their acceptance of him would be in vein.

But that flies in the very face of the whole assumption that they aren't supposed to have the ability to choose to be good people on their own in the first place.

You are basically demanding that they can indeed make that choice and do this very thing that they are not supposed to be able to do on their own merit.

Clearly you aren't understanding the paradox involved.



Again, you are totally missing the paradox in this.

If that were the true reason then there would be absolutely no reason for Jesus to offer people 'grace' via having made a sacrifice on their behalf.

If the "true reason" as you claim is that people simply want to love God and do the right thing, and they can CHOOSE to do this freely on their own merit. Then that is all that would be required.

There would be no need to offer such people 'grace' because they would be making this decision on their own merit.

This is the paradox of this religion Cowboy.

You just don't seem to be understanding the fundamental paradox here.



Again, you are apparently totally oblivious to the paradox in this.

What sense does it make to claim that Jesus "defeated" death for anyone when the criteria for avoiding spiritual death is to simply choose to be a highly moral person and love the creator?

The only people who can 'defeat' death in this situation would be the people who actually make that choice. They would need to 'defeat' spiritual death themselves.

If Jesus had defeated death for other people by having made their choices for them, then Jesus would have defeated death for everyone. Without exception. There would be nothing left for anyone to do.

But that's not what this religion is attempting to claim. People are still required to make a choice otherwise they will face spiritual death.

So it's a paradoxical story.

Jesus cannot be said to have "saved" anyone, if their ultimate salvation is up to THEM. If they are required to make a choice in order to "save themselves" then Jesus is not saving anyone. And the whole story becomes a moot point.



But you just demanded earlier that we do become puppets on a stick once we give ourselves over to Jesus. That he takes control of our lives.

It makes no sense to even speak of FREE WILL, if you're going to demand that people have no FREE WILL to simply accept God on their own FREE WILL merit.

But in order to be able to do that, they would have to be able to make that choice on their own. If they require Jesus to take control of their lives before they can do that, then they clearly have no FREE WILL at all.

You're totally missing the paradoxes involved in this.

You can't have a religion proclaiming that people have FREE WILL whilst simultaneously telling them that they don't even have the capacity to choose to be good righteous people via their own FREE WILL merit and FREE WILL choice.

That's an oxymoron.

~~~~~

Also, how did Satan get so lucky as to not require that anyone use their FREE WILL to choose him?

Why is Satan the default winner in this religion?

No one is required to "choose" Satan via their FREE WILL choice. This cult has automatically made that choice the supposed DEFAULT.

If this were truly about FREE WILL choice, you couldn't simply talk about choosing God. You'd need to talk about choosing Satan as well.

A person would need to make a conscious FREE WILL choice to side with Satan in this religion if it's all about making FREE WILL choices.

Again, it's an oxymoron to proclaim that people who are not making a FREE WILL choice to accept the so-called "grace" of the sacrificial demigod of this religion, then must be making a FREE WILL choice to serve some demonic fallen angel.

~~~~

IMHO Cowboy, this religion is basically an extremely hateful cult.

Why do I feel that way? Because it is the ultimate emotional terrorism in terms of a brainwashing scheme.

It's basically saying this: "Either join and support the religious and lifestyle bigotries of our religious/political cult, or we will proclaim that you are rejecting your creator, you are rejecting LOVE and all that is GOOD, and you are making a FREE WILL choice to join forces with an evil demonic demon who is the ENEMY of God himself!

That is extreme emotional and social terrorism.

It's a cult that truly attempts to socially and emotionally execute anyone and everyone who refuses to join and support it.

And it does all of this using the name of Jesus as the weapon of emotional terrorism.

It's the saddest religion I know of in this respect.

~~~~~

There is no way that I could ever imagine any truly divine benevolent supreme deity being associated with such a negative approach to spirituality.

~~~~~

This religion, in all its gory details, simply has to be the product of men. It's either just unbridled superstition, or an outright underhanded creation of brainwashing deceit created for the express purpose of driving the "fear of God" into the masses for the purpose of controlling them politically.

There is one very simple "TRUTH" that any sentient human being can ask themselves to reveal the falsity of this religion and it is simply this:

"Am I choosing to side with, and serve, a demonic fallen angel?"

If their answer is no, then they can know that this religion is false.

If their answer is yes, then would it even matter for them whether the religion is true. Obviously they would have already made their choice to side with, and serve, a demonic fallen angel anyway.

So the only people this religion could possibly even be true for are people who have already chosen to side with, and serve, a demonic fallen angel.

Anyone else should be able to clearly see that the claims being made by this religious/political theology are necessarily FALSE.

~~~~

The bottom line is extremely simple.

Am I rejecting my creator?

No.

This religion claims that I am.

Therefore, this religion is necessarily a big fat lie.

Q.E.D.

Our attitudes, our choices, our thoughts, our wants, and much more are not created by God and or even effected by God unless we allow him to.

He doesn't. He wants us to choose to obey him cause we want to. Because we wish to be loving and obedient to our father. Again, no because we have to and have no other choice eg., a puppet.



Clearly you don't understand what a “lordship” is. Lord - one having power and authority over others. So with accepting Jesus as Lord one would obey him.



But no one has been worthy on their own but Jesus himself. Every single other person that has or ever will walk this Earth has or will commit a sin(s) with their disobedience to the father.

“If the "true reason" as you claim is that people simply want to love God and do the right thing, and they can CHOOSE to do this freely on their own merit. Then that is all that would be required. “

That is all that is required. We love God through being obedient and accepting Jesus as Lord and savior, then following the laws he has laid out before as Jesus is our God.



He did defeat death for everyone, you only have to accept the gift. That is accepted by accepting Jesus as lord and savior. The gift is on the table to any and everyone my friend.



It's all hand in hand lol. We have free will. And with that FREE WILL, we have chose to give our lives over to Jesus. Again, that is done with our FREE WILL.



If you're going down the road and you decide to turn right, you have automatically refused to choose left. With using your FREE WILL, through your actions you either choose right or left, God or Satan.

I'm not surprised that you totally avoid the real issues and just continue to post utterly feeble excuses that make absolutely no sense.

Here's the bottom line Cowboy,...


~~~~

The bottom line is extremely simple.

Am I rejecting my creator?

No.

This religion claims that I am.

Therefore, this religion is necessarily a big fat lie.

Q.E.D.


You keep talking as though someone is "rejecting" God.

But that is the fatal flaw in the religion.

That is the lie.

You keep talking like as if you expect people to believe that lie.

but the OP asked if Jesus is in the Old Testament

Op, the answer is no

I agree. There's nothing anywhere in the Old Testament that even remotely refers to Jesus, much less Jesus actually being in the Old Testament.

Moreover, according to the gospels Jesus didn't even agree with the immoral teachings that were in the Old Testament. He clearly taught opposite moral values. He taught people not to judge each other. He taught people not to stone others to death for their supposed sins. He taught people not to seek an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but rather that they should turn the other cheek and forgive those who trespass against them.

So not only was Jesus not in the Old Testament, but he clearly didn't even agree with what it had to teach.

No one asked if you rejected any creator. We're merely having a DISCUSSION on the topic of the thread or at least trying to. This thread is not on the validity of God, not on who's God is the true God, or any of that non-sense. So what are you talking about? If the thread or the topic doesn't apply to you, why respond in it? Or more in depth, why continue to respond? You've mentioned many times that you do not believe in the Christian faith, why continue discussing in them then? Yes, this may be a general chat "forum". But each and every different thread belongs to one specific religion most usually or one specific spiritual belief. Again, why continue to respond to the Christian discussions when you do not believe?