Your God? You have your own God?

Amen brother.



Why should you have a fine that you could never pay in the first place?

Like Kleisto says, that's spiritual rape and spiritual terrorism.

Why should any sane righteous person believe that they are being "fined" to a degree that they couldn't even pay the fine themselves?

This very notion is what I reject. You're talking about a religion that has already condemned everyone without even asking them who they are or what they stand for.

And the whole thing must be accepted on FAITH?

Like DUH?

I'm supposed to place my FAITH in an idea that I'm being fined to such an extreme degree that I couldn't possibly even work it out on my own merit?

Why would I ever want to place FAITH in such an insane idea?

Seriously Spider. Can you answer that?

Why should anyone want to believe on FAITH that they have been so nasty that they couldn't even pay for their own mistakes?

I can't imagine any sane person wanting to believe such a thing on pure FAITH. That's got to be the most ludicrous thing I can ever imagine a person wanting to place their FAITH in .

~~~~

And then to make matters far worse, they have to condone having God's perfectly innocent son nailed to a pole to pay for their fine that they are totally unworthy of paying themselves.

That's even more disgusting, IMHO.

Even if I thought I was such a horrible person that this kind of extreme situation would be required I'd STILL PASS!

I wouldn't accept that deal.

I would say to God, "No, I do not accept having your totally innocent son butchered to pay for my fines".

I don't condone that, nor accept it on my behalf.

If there is some reason why I am "unworthy" of eternal life, then so be it, I accept that I didn't make the grade. Do be going around having your son nailed to a pole for my sake, because I won't accept that.

God should have ASKED me before he did such a thing.

If he would have asked everyone first maybe a lot of people would have declined the offer and he could have saved his son the trouble.

Moreover, would the people who would be anxious to have God nail his innocent son to pole to save their unworthy butts really even worth saving?

I wouldn't want to go to any paradise filled with that kind of people anyway. Death would be a far better end to my existence. Thank you very much.

He's not mine, I'm His.

The woman I was with last night was screaming "MY GOD! MY GOD!"

I thought to myself: Shouldn't we both be screaming together, "OUR GOD!, OUR GOD!"

As has already been pointed out, Adam wasn't alive 2000 years ago.

Adam and Eve were as perfect human beings as has ever existed. They both had a failing of spirit and gave into the temptations of their flesh and their souls. With the fall of these two, the most perfect humans to ever live, all humanity fell. You and I (as imperfect as we are) have no chance of not failing God. So everybody shares in the failure of Adam. Jesus is sometimes called the "second Adam". The first Adam was physically perfect, but spiritually human. Jesus was spiritual perfect, but physically unremarkable.

Obviously you don't realize how utterly absurd this is, but I'll try to explain it to you in any case.

First off, it makes absolutely no sense to talk about some humans being "more perfect" than others. If that were the case that could only be the failing of the creator to create all humans equal.

Secondly the very idea that we have "no chance" of not failing God only reveals that it can't be "Our Choice".

It can hardly be claimed that we had a "Choice" if we have "no chance".

So this is truly a devious brainwashing scheme made up by unscrupulous men who are attempting to create a situation where no one can "please God" because that's said to be impossible, yet at the same time everyone is supposedly guilty of CHOOSING to not please God.



This is clearly a religios scam where the scammers shot themselves in their own two feet.

You really need to take an objective view at all of this Spider and realize that you've been duped by a religious scam that can't possible have any merit.

The religion tells you that you are a sinner and that there is nothing you could have even done about it because it's beyond your ability to NOT sin. Yet they would have you believe that YOU are guilty for being in this impossible situation via your very own CHOICE.

You are being held GUILTY for something that you supposedly couldn't even change if you wanted to.

And you accept that on FAITH?

You can't be serious.

Well whatever, the idea is the same. There is no way one who is thinking clearly can justify pushing the mistakes of two people here, adam and eve, that existed long before the rest of us ever did supposedly onto everyone else.

It's simply unfair. It'd be like if your oldest child broke something 3 years before your next child is born, and that child inherits responsibility for the accident even though it wasn't even alive when it happened. It makes no good sense at all, and you're gonna tell me this is how a divine creator operates? Doing something that even we know is unjust and in our right minds would never do to our kids? I think not.

See my previous post.

Oh goodie, I can't wait.



Once again, sloppy thinking on your part.

God created Adam and Eve to be physically (genetically) perfect. After the fall, our DNA started to change with each generation.



More sloppy thinking, but I'm used to it. We have no chance, because we all have the same spiritual failings as Adam and Eve, but we lack their perfect genetics and their close personal relationship with God.



For crying out loud, just because we can't do something doesn't mean we don't have the ability. Jesus proved that by overcoming the flaws of the flesh through having a perfect spirit. The difference between the lives of Adam and Jesus is that Adam proved that the perfect body does not make a perfect man and Jesus proved that the perfect spirit makes the perfect man.



That's too stupid to deserve a serious response. Let's imagine the Disciples in the upper room: "Hey guys, let's pretend that Jesus was God, so that the Romans and Jews will kill us all brutally" The suggestion was met with a round of applause.



More stupidity and sloppy thinking. If this were the case, the Disciples simply had to admit to their scam and lived. You want us to believe that people would die in order to never reveal their scam? That's against human nature, it's just not something people do.



It's a bukkake of stupidity! You throw together some crazy accusations that make no sense and insist that I'm not being objective.



My conscience tells me that.



This makes no sense. I didn't choose to be born, so I have no idea what you are trying to say.



I could, if I were spiritually perfect. I cannot make myself spiritually perfect, I need an outside force that is already perfect to do that.



Reason and faith and science.



Actually I can be serious at times. This is an example of one of those times.

EDIT: I think I deserve an award or something. I'm pretty sure I'm the first person who has ever replied to every confused and hatefilled bigoted point in one of James posts.

That's not true at all, it's actually a very backwards way of looking at things.

The most perfect human to live failed to please God. There was no chance of anyone following them to please God and God knew this. So instead of wiping out the human race or allowing generation after generation of humans continue to fail God and die the second death, God decided to live a human life and die a criminals death to pay for his creation's sins. God knew we couldn't do it, so God did it for us.

So a blood sacrifice is the ONLY way a divine being could come up with to save people for things that again OTHERS did?

Number 1, that's ritualistic in the extreme. Number 2, surely God being on a higher spiritual plane could come up with something a little better than that for this, that he couldn't doesn't say much for him. Number 3, if it was for all sins than no one should die at all now spiritually lest it not be for all. It can't be done for all but then place restrictions on those who can receive it.

And lastly it still doesn't address the issue of punishing every other human being that ever has existed for something THEY NEVER DID. Do you not understand how that is ridiculous??

No, you sound like James is your spiritual adviser, because he's always saying that. The punishment for all sins is death. So it's death, not blood that is the punishment.



Strawman argument.



You have made this sort of illogical statement before. If you assume for the sake of argument that God exists, then you cannot argue against his actions.



No idea what you are saying here.



No idea what you are saying here. I guess you are saying you are perfect and have never committed any sin according to the Biblical view of sins? That's ridiculous.

No, that's sloppy thinking on your part.

If our DNA is defective and we have no choice but to be imperfect (which is obviously considered to be a "sin" by you), the we would have no choice in the matter.

We couldn't be held "guilty" for having defective DNA.

So you're the one who had really sloppy thinking here Spider.





More sloppy thinking, but I'm used to it. We have no chance, because we all have the same spiritual failings as Adam and Eve, but we lack their perfect genetics and their close personal relationship with God.


Again, more sloppy thinking on your part Spider.

If we are genetically defective to the point where we are not responsible for our imperfections, then we can't be held "guilty" for having them.

So any God that would hold us "guilty" for having defective DNA would be an unrighteous God.

You're thinking isn't just sloppy, but apparently it's non-existent.




But you just claimed that we don't have the ability because we have defective DNA.

Now you're trying to claim that we do have the ability.

Not only do you have sloppy thinking, but you can't even take a coherent stance on anything.

Moreover Jesus didn't "prove" any such thing. On the contrary what would have been the purpose of a "Miraculous Virgin Birth" if not to provide Jesus with Perfect DNA?

So you've shot yourself in your own foot with that one.

We have no way of knowing whether Jesus was perfect or not anyway. Even the gospels only tell of just a few years of his life. What he did during the course of his life is anyone's guess.



The whole thing is a scam Spider.




There are religious zealots to this very day who would rather die than confess that Jesus is not God.

There's no reason to believe that the religious zealots were any different back then.

Humans have a history of being crazy Spider. No news there.




You just like to insult people by calling them stupid when they don't suck up to your religion.



Well, I'm sorry to hear that. But I do understand that you would need to believe that first before this religion can even begin to make sense to you. So I guess that's a given.

Clearly you aren't going to be able to even begin to understand how these things appear to people who aren't ridden with guilt complexes and paranoia concerning gods that are our to condemn them.



Well, if you didn't choose to be born, and you didn't choose to have defective DNA, then clearly you can't be responsible for being such a pathetic creature.

Therefore it would be totally unrighteous for any God to condemn you for having created in you in such poor shape.

A truly righteous God would fix you up and make you all better.




Well, clearly then, it wouldn't be your fault if that were the case.

So any supreme being who would hold you responsible for being in such a helpless pathetic state would be totally unreasonable and unrighteous.



Well, I guess if you feel that you are a genetically defective being who can't do anything on your own and the only way to "salvation" is by being 'saved' by the God who placed you in this hopeless predicament, then I can see where you'd want to have faith.

As far as reason and science go, I personally feel that you just use those words to support your dire need for faith.




You hatred for me is showing Spider.

But that's ok, I don't blame you for hating me. If I saw me through your eyes I'd hate me too.

I'm glad that I'll never see the world from that point of view.

Clearly you need to feel 'saved' from your otherwise hopeless situation.

But you don't need to convince me or anyone else.

Just know that it's true and that's all that matters Spider.

You don't need to defend your salvation to other people.

It simply isn't required.

i may be wrong, but doesn't the bible state what is a sin and what is not? you have a choice whether you want to sin or not, the bible tells you what happens if you do decide to sin...so it is kind of like the laws of the land, just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them any less legal...

Either way, that's the best a divine being could do? I somehow don't think so.



Oh come off your damn high horse, you don't own God! I can say anything I want. Just because God exists doesn't mean it has to be your version of God. Your arrogance is showing again.



What I am saying is, if you're gonna say Jesus died for ALL sin, than everyone after that should be saved by default, otherwise you're a liar. To say he dies for all, but then add....."But you still have to do x y and z to be saved" simply does not work.



Number one, there is no such thing as sin, that's all a lie from man to control the actions of the populace. Number two, I never said I am perfect, I make mistakes as much as anyone else. I am only human after all, but it's my actions are my responsibility, mine and mine alone. I am not gonna be responsible for what some people did thousands of years ago. That's where all this separates.

Lastly, I'd contend we were made this way on purpose to begin with. God cannot create an imperfect creation UNLESS he meant for us to be that way. Otherwise, you're saying God made a mistake in creating a so called sinful creation, which means he would no longer be perfect. So either we were made as we are flaws and all intentionally, or God fails as a perfect being. You can't have it both ways.

But it doesn't mean they are right and just either, and I for one reject the ideas wholeheartedly, I won't put that bondage on myself anymore. I'm freer now than I ever used to be because I shed it, no way I'd ever go back.

Beyond all that, the whole choice thing is ridiculous, because as I've said before the option is either "obey or die". Yeah some choice that is.......

obey or die? where did that come from?

The Bible, where else. The Bible itself says the wages of sin is death, so if you sin, you die. Not that hard.

i guess i missed that part... i thought if you sinned, you went to hell... my bad, i guess i'll read it again

Apples and oranges, be it eternally burned or died, the idea is basically the same, obey or be punished. That's not how I'd define free will.