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| Topic: Obama Lies Again, What A Shock | |
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OK. We'll go back to the original women are treated worse than slaves there... Hardly. Women are constrained by parochial societal traditions as embodied by Sharia law, Just as American women are freed by American societal norms by American Constitutional law, as embodied by laws like Roe v Wade. To say that Saudi laws is worse than slavery is ridiculous hyperbole. Saudi women do not belong to anybody. they can seek divorce from their hubands in Saudi courts, just the same as American women. If successful, the ex-husband must support them. There is evidence that many women in Saudi Arabia do not want radical change. Even many advocates of reform reject Western critics, for "failing to understand the uniqueness of Saudi society." [3][4][5] Journalist Maha Akeel is a frequent critic of her country's patriarchal customs. Nonetheless, she agrees that Westerners criticize what they do not understand. "Look, we are not asking for ... women's rights according to Western values or lifestyles ... We want things according to what Islam says. Look at our history, our role models."[6]. . . . “It’s the culture, not the religion,” is a Saudi saying. Many Saudis do not see Islam as the main impediment to women’s rights. Said one female journalist, “If the Qur’an does not address the subject, then the clerics will err on the side of caution and make it haram (forbidden). The driving ban for women is the best example.”[9] Journalist Sabria Jawhar dismisses perceptions of Islam as patriarchal as a Western stereotype. “If all women were given the rights the Qur’an guarantees us, and not be supplanted by tribal customs, then the issue of whether Saudi women have equal rights would be reduced.”[ So, it is less a matter of constraint by the Quran, and more a matter of tribal tradition. oh, ok... they don't need to be equal... even if they wanted to leave, they can't unless a man says it's ok... sounds like your good with that doesnt matter if we are ok with it, we arent living it,, it matters if the WOMEN who live it are ok with it as I mentioned before, Im not down with someone cutting on me with knives, but if the Angelina Jolies feel a release from it,, thats for them to decide about THEIR LIVES i understand if you want to turn your back on your sisters suffering, there is nothing you can do anyway...your right, it is their problem, not ours... who says they are suffering, and how are we going to diminish ALL suffering in the world, and where should we start,, in our own country and home or in someone elses country of which we only know what a media has reported to us? I deal with the suffering I see FOR MYSELF right here in the US, I dont presume to make victims out of other people because of how they live their life all you have to do is look it up... it's not that hard... i posted 4 links myself, there are thousands more if you don't want to see, just say so, and i'll drop it I look it up, but not just from one side. My point is , there are civil rights issues everywhere. There are groups everywhere that are not happy with the mainstream culture they live in. It is up to them FIRST to change it and without evidence that THEY are making a significant effort to make change, NO, I dont feel an obligation to do for those others what they wont do for themself. I feel there are plenty of things that I can actually do something about RIGHT HERE in my own back yard, unlike issues of other citizens across the ocean which I can not do nearly as much about. What we consider 'oppression' is not oppression if it is what the majority WANT. If the majority in saudi have a custom of the women being protected by the men and the men having the LEGAL OBLIGATION go do that through guardianship,, that is for the majority in THAT country to decide,, not you nor I. it is no big deal if you don't care, i thought you might, but you don't... I care about others being able to live the life and the culture THEY wish,,,, |
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OK. We'll go back to the original women are treated worse than slaves there... Hardly. Women are constrained by parochial societal traditions as embodied by Sharia law, Just as American women are freed by American societal norms by American Constitutional law, as embodied by laws like Roe v Wade. To say that Saudi laws is worse than slavery is ridiculous hyperbole. Saudi women do not belong to anybody. they can seek divorce from their hubands in Saudi courts, just the same as American women. If successful, the ex-husband must support them. There is evidence that many women in Saudi Arabia do not want radical change. Even many advocates of reform reject Western critics, for "failing to understand the uniqueness of Saudi society." [3][4][5] Journalist Maha Akeel is a frequent critic of her country's patriarchal customs. Nonetheless, she agrees that Westerners criticize what they do not understand. "Look, we are not asking for ... women's rights according to Western values or lifestyles ... We want things according to what Islam says. Look at our history, our role models."[6]. . . . “It’s the culture, not the religion,” is a Saudi saying. Many Saudis do not see Islam as the main impediment to women’s rights. Said one female journalist, “If the Qur’an does not address the subject, then the clerics will err on the side of caution and make it haram (forbidden). The driving ban for women is the best example.”[9] Journalist Sabria Jawhar dismisses perceptions of Islam as patriarchal as a Western stereotype. “If all women were given the rights the Qur’an guarantees us, and not be supplanted by tribal customs, then the issue of whether Saudi women have equal rights would be reduced.”[ So, it is less a matter of constraint by the Quran, and more a matter of tribal tradition. oh, ok... they don't need to be equal... even if they wanted to leave, they can't unless a man says it's ok... sounds like your good with that doesnt matter if we are ok with it, we arent living it,, it matters if the WOMEN who live it are ok with it as I mentioned before, Im not down with someone cutting on me with knives, but if the Angelina Jolies feel a release from it,, thats for them to decide about THEIR LIVES i understand if you want to turn your back on your sisters suffering, there is nothing you can do anyway...your right, it is their problem, not ours... who says they are suffering, and how are we going to diminish ALL suffering in the world, and where should we start,, in our own country and home or in someone elses country of which we only know what a media has reported to us? I deal with the suffering I see FOR MYSELF right here in the US, I dont presume to make victims out of other people because of how they live their life all you have to do is look it up... it's not that hard... i posted 4 links myself, there are thousands more if you don't want to see, just say so, and i'll drop it I look it up, but not just from one side. My point is , there are civil rights issues everywhere. There are groups everywhere that are not happy with the mainstream culture they live in. It is up to them FIRST to change it and without evidence that THEY are making a significant effort to make change, NO, I dont feel an obligation to do for those others what they wont do for themself. I feel there are plenty of things that I can actually do something about RIGHT HERE in my own back yard, unlike issues of other citizens across the ocean which I can not do nearly as much about. What we consider 'oppression' is not oppression if it is what the majority WANT. If the majority in saudi have a custom of the women being protected by the men and the men having the LEGAL OBLIGATION go do that through guardianship,, that is for the majority in THAT country to decide,, not you nor I. it is no big deal if you don't care, i thought you might, but you don't... I care about others being able to live the life and the culture THEY wish,,,, same to you |
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same to you i'm not the one saying they are "being what they wanna be"... you, as a woman, should know better than me what it is like to live in a male dominated society. but yet, your defending the men there and saying the women like it it... i've done my research on it, and you haven't... so if you don't care, you don't care... |
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same to you i'm not the one saying they are "being what they wanna be"... you, as a woman, should know better than me what it is like to live in a male dominated society. but yet, your defending the men there and saying the women like it it... i've done my research on it, and you haven't... so if you don't care, you don't care... you are the one insisting that they DONT want to be that way,,,I have done my research, if you dont care I dont care either,,, womens rights got us plenty far in this country, but it also set our communities and families back plenty as well perhaps a majority there are making family and community the priority instead of self, and if those are their customs, who are WE to change them or insist that they do,,that demand for change has to come from those LIVING it,,,(if its what they want) |
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same to you i'm not the one saying they are "being what they wanna be"... you, as a woman, should know better than me what it is like to live in a male dominated society. but yet, your defending the men there and saying the women like it it... i've done my research on it, and you haven't... so if you don't care, you don't care... you are the one insisting that they DONT want to be that way,,,I have done my research, if you dont care I dont care either,,, womens rights got us plenty far in this country, but it also set our communities and families back plenty as well perhaps a majority there are making family and community the priority instead of self, and if those are their customs, who are WE to change them or insist that they do,,that demand for change has to come from those LIVING it,,,(if its what they want) if you needed help, and no one was there to help, what would you do? grin and bear it i guess... what else could you do? |
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same to you i'm not the one saying they are "being what they wanna be"... you, as a woman, should know better than me what it is like to live in a male dominated society. but yet, your defending the men there and saying the women like it it... i've done my research on it, and you haven't... so if you don't care, you don't care... you are the one insisting that they DONT want to be that way,,,I have done my research, if you dont care I dont care either,,, womens rights got us plenty far in this country, but it also set our communities and families back plenty as well perhaps a majority there are making family and community the priority instead of self, and if those are their customs, who are WE to change them or insist that they do,,that demand for change has to come from those LIVING it,,,(if its what they want) if you needed help, and no one was there to help, what would you do? grin and bear it i guess... what else could you do? well, somehow slaves in america found proponents to help them, somehow women found proponents to help them Im sure, where there is a will, there is a way,,,,change has to start there if thats what they want |
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same to you i'm not the one saying they are "being what they wanna be"... you, as a woman, should know better than me what it is like to live in a male dominated society. but yet, your defending the men there and saying the women like it it... i've done my research on it, and you haven't... so if you don't care, you don't care... you are the one insisting that they DONT want to be that way,,,I have done my research, if you dont care I dont care either,,, womens rights got us plenty far in this country, but it also set our communities and families back plenty as well perhaps a majority there are making family and community the priority instead of self, and if those are their customs, who are WE to change them or insist that they do,,that demand for change has to come from those LIVING it,,,(if its what they want) if you needed help, and no one was there to help, what would you do? grin and bear it i guess... what else could you do? well, somehow slaves in america found proponents to help them, somehow women found proponents to help them Im sure, where there is a will, there is a way,,,,change has to start there if thats what they want |
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same to you i'm not the one saying they are "being what they wanna be"... you, as a woman, should know better than me what it is like to live in a male dominated society. but yet, your defending the men there and saying the women like it it... i've done my research on it, and you haven't... so if you don't care, you don't care... you are the one insisting that they DONT want to be that way,,,I have done my research, if you dont care I dont care either,,, womens rights got us plenty far in this country, but it also set our communities and families back plenty as well perhaps a majority there are making family and community the priority instead of self, and if those are their customs, who are WE to change them or insist that they do,,that demand for change has to come from those LIVING it,,,(if its what they want) I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. My dad worked, my mom was a stay at home mom. Now that women are common place in the work force, it is almost impossible to support a family on one income. Both have to work even if both spouses don't want that. It is almost impossible to have a traditional family in today's age. Hmmm, wonder if this is related to the divorce rate in any way... |
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equality is a double edged sword. The problem is that people overcompensate thinking someone is going to be left behind. My mom worked more than my dad did. My mom had the work ethic. My father was good at manipulating systems. I had a horrible family example to go by. I know what I don't want.
It is sad to think that American Family values have not been able to adapt well to a new way of thinking where women are bread winners. Most of the time it is self interest on one side or the other that causes relationships and marriages to end. Most of the time there is dysfunction present anyways. Also children can cause lives to change unfavorably. It is all relative. Then again it can be argued that this is social evolution. What humans are becoming is sort of appalling. Our growth and unchecked consumption of resources is going to have bad consequences in the future. As smart as we think we are we cannot learn from our mistakes. We just keep making the same mistake over and over and over until it works. But that is just a tangent. What we are witnessing is social evolution. Plain and simple. And it isn't pretty. |
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