Like I said, your exegesis is lacking. Jesus taught against judging unfairly, not against all judgments. You really really need to get a concordance (google BlueLetterBible or a good free one on line) and read Matthew 7:1. When Jesus says "Judge not...", the word translated as "Judge" is "Krino", which means "Condemn".

Matthew 7:1-2 is meant to be read thusly:
"Condemn not, that ye be not condemned. For with what decree ye condemn, ye shall be condemned: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. "

In John 5:30, Jesus said "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me"

If a judgment is made to do the will of God, then it is righteous. So when a cop arrests a murderer, he is righteous. When a man defends a woman from an attacker, he is righteous.

I'm not trying to insult you, so please don't take it that way, but your exegesis is really bad on this subject. I hope that you will look more deeply into this subject, for your own good and your families.

Now I'm remembering why I stopped posting here, absolute rubbish like this.

Prison is for punishment, pure and simple. Yes, it has the side effect of removing the perp from the general populous, but that's not the goal.

And Christians and Jews are the first people to have laws and if they would have been that would be a giant check mark in their box, versus the lawless world around them.

I am constantly amazed at the absolute lunacy that your hatred of Christianity drives you to post and believe. I honestly believe that you are so filled with rage at Christianity that you can't even think clearly.

Means the same thing. If someone was to judge you as a murderer, that someone would treat you differently. They would treat you as a bad person, they would think less of you for your actions. They would condemn you for your actions. They wouldn't show you love the way they would show someone else.

Enforcing the law, punishing, same difference. If you are taken to jail for a crime, the officer has "enforced the law" and "punished" you with taking you to jail.

So if I tell a Child molester that he can't babysit my kids, I'm a bad person? You have taken "judge not" and "turn the other cheek" to ridiculous extremes. If I didn't know better, I would swear you were an atheist trying to make Christians look stupid.

I have every right to judge the actions of others and decide if they are good or bad. I don't have the right condemn someone to elevate myself or unfairly condemn someone. If a police officer gives you a $20 fine for jaywalking, that's fair. If a police officer arrests you for jaywalking and you spend 50 years in jail, that's unfair. It's not hard to understand the difference between a fair judgment and an unfair judgment. There is an entire book of the Bible named "The Book of Judges"...about JUDGES! And many of them were righteous people, passing down judgments on others. By your JUDGMENT, they are sinning. And that makes you a hypocrite. You are judging others for judging others. Seriously, you need to educate yourself on this stuff and actually think it through. You aren't making any sense and you are making Christians look stupid.

No, not the same thing. You want a specific type of person to babysit your kids. That's not condemning them. You're not putting them on a lower level then anyone else in the world. You want a specific type of person for a specific job. Again, you aren't "condemning" them, they just don't fit the job you are hiring for. You have a choice between 3 women to take out to dinner tonight. When picking that one woman, you have not "condemned" those other 2, you have not "judged" them to be failures to the lord or of a lower human being. They just don't fit the qualities of the specific person you're looking for, for the specific job.



Judging someone and making a judgement of someone are two different things held in their exact context. Judging someone of being inappropriate to be around would then be judging you as better then they are. Making a judgement of someone is merely making an opinion of someone.

So I can decide that a child molester shouldn't babysit my kids, but society can't decide that child molesters belong in prison? I am going to disagree. Vehemently. I hope that you think about the things I have posted and don't take my word, but do the study on your own.

Anyone else have any opinions on this subject? Cowboy, Abracadabra and I have sucked up all of the air in the room, but hopefully others will find room for themselves in this discussion.

It's not about "blame" Cowboy.

That's your mindset, not mine.

My point stands. Any system where an eternal fate is at stake and some people are given more opportunity to achieve a certain fate than others, would be an unjust and therefore an unrigheous system

This is especially true in a system where a level of maturity of individuals evolves over the lifespan of the people in question.

There's no way that you will ever convince me that a 15-year-old misguided, and potentially mistreated young person should be judged for not having repented if they die at 15, whilst someone else, who was just as misguided at the age of 15 finally realizes the error of their ways at say 60 years old, and is then "saved" because they repented in their state of mature wisdom.

The system that you support and condone is simply unrighteous, IMHO, and, yes, I would indeed place the "blame" of unrighteousness on the designer of such a system, if you insist on "blaming" someone.

No question about it. If you are hell bent on "blaming" someone for the unrighteousness of the system, then the "blame" would necessarily be on the designer of the system. For no one else could possibly be held responsible for it.

So the system you describe and advocate cannot possible be a system that a supposedly righteous creator would create, because the system you are describing is itself an unrighteous system.

There is no limit to how many posts these thread can accept. They just kick over into new threads after 50 pages, so there's plenty of AIR left.

I understand what you're saying. Just choosing not to be around someone isn't specifically "punishing" them. So it's not condemning or judging anyone. It's just merely choosing to be away from them. It's not putting you at a higher level then they, it's not putting them at a lower level. When someone is put in prison, they are put below the rest of the population. Their rights in the country have been taken away, they can not choose to go somewhere if they wish, they can not choose what they eat, ect. They are put below the rest of the population which has the ability to freely choose what they eat, what they wear, ect. They are put on the level as animals. They are fed by us, they have to go where we tell them to, they have to do what they are told, ect. It is not our right as a fellow human to do such a thing to another person.

People don't have more faith then another. Faith is faith, there is no level of faith. You either have faith in the lord, or you don't.



Who's to say who will live to 60? Why wait that long to revise how you live your life? Why procrastinate about it? Nobody is even guaranteed 5 minutes from now. We all have the same opportunity. We have a life time to earn heaven. It's only you that sees it being as unfair because you wish to live how you wish for the first 60 years, then repent and go to heaven. You just want an easy way out rather then having to live your entire life like how we are suppose to. I may live till i'm 70, another till they are 60, some may not even make it to 20. But nevertheless we all would have a life time. Why wait till later? Why not do it now?

So your solution is...let every crime be punished only by God and rapists, murderers and every type of criminal can rule our society while the peace loving people are victimized on a daily basis? I'm not going out on a limb here to say that isn't what God wanted or Jesus taught. Jesus taught "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's"...if the Government can tax (take YOUR money from you), why are they allowed that power? Paul taught us "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. " Governments are to be put in place to defend the rights of it's citizens. The rights of criminals must also be defended, but not to the point that they infringe on the rights of the law abiding citizens. Why do you think God establish a civilian legal system to punish criminals in Israel? Anyways, I'm not going to let myself get sucked back in. God bless.

God is the judge of us for eternity. Why worry about the temporary things in life? Jesus has told us people will persecute us in his name, that would lay with what you are saying. The reason they are doing the action may not be in persecution. But the result of you not retaliating puts in there. By judging someone you are stating that you are better then they, because they are being punished and you are not. You may not have done that specific thing but you've done many other things in your life that would then be no better.

Just sit back and let the lord sort'em out. You will defend what is precious to you. So you defending our physical self, our objects, ect make them precious to you. Why not make our father precious to you and do as he has said? Why put God to the side and go against his will with retaliating?

Here's a totally different line of thinking altogether:

Is it sane to murder and rape people?

I would personally say that it's not.

Therefore anyone who does it is insane.

What is insanity but mental illness.

So, rather than judging these people to be "sane" people who have knowingly and rationally decided to become "sinners", why not just recognize that they are simply mentally ill people?

This would be a far more practical view I would think.

So then the question becomes, "Should we kill mentally ill people who are clearly a threat to the lives and welfare of sane people"

There's not "judging" or religious connotations to it at all then.

The question then simply becomes one of how to deal with extreme mental illness.

In fact, I'm surprised the atheists aren't here pointing out the sanity of atheism in this view. Why even bother getting all "Holier than Thou" about it and accusing mentally ill people of being "sinners" when in reality we just talking about mentally ill people?

How do we deal with mentally ill people?

Should we kill them?

Should we incarcerate them and treat them as "criminals"?

Or should we simply recognize that they are indeed mentally ill, simply restrain them for the purpose of protecting society whilst we try to help them get better, if that's even possible.

I think the last option is really about all we can do, and should do.

Why label them as "sinners" or even as "criminals" when in fact they are just mentally ill people.

This is one area where atheism seems to be the most intelligent approach to the problems, IMHO.

If an action is insane, then the person who is committing the act must also be insane. Why call them a 'sinner' when what they truly are is mentally ill?

Reaching out to people like the ones described for this thought experiment is the Pu@@y's way out. This is not a world of love. It is a world where the strong survive and the weak die. To have a world of love you need to be able to fight and if necessary KILL to protect the peace and lives and safety of those you care for from those who don't care.

When there is no negotiations there is only conflict and the strongest person wins, not the weakest or the meekest.

Frankly if I was in the mindset of the Devil's Rejects if anyone came to preach peace to me I would kill them slowly and relish their pain and suffering! I would get pissed if they died too soon or there were no others to victimize.

I have seen the evil in my own heart enough to know that if anyone had the wherewithall to do even a fraction of what I thought of that person would be frankly quite terrifying. Take Hannibal Lector and piss him off a lot. Give him a chainsaw and you got a LUKE WARM version of the evil I am thinkning about.

Good to know I am not one of those nut jobs now isn't it? The fact is there are people in thisi world who don't care about anything. They make Nilists look like devoted Catholics!

Truly, and this is indeed the very nature of this world, it's not just humans, it applies to all life on Earth, including animals and even plants.

That's always been a major argument of mine. Mankind cannot possibly be responsible the the fact that this universe is clearly "designed" to be a dog-eat-dog world, and there is absolutely no way that humankind can be blamed for this, because it's inherent in the nature of the everything.

So the very idea that mankind is in any way 'special' with regard to any of this stuff is a false delusion. Thus clearly any religions that are based on the idea that mankind can be blamed for this or held responsible for it in any way are utterly absurd.




Well, the idea that many Christians try to put forth is that this life is merely a 'test' to see if we are worthy of an imagined eternal life.

However, that ideal does not truly fit the Biblical story at all, not in the least.

The Biblical story does not have God starting out telling Adam and Eve that life is a test to see if they are worthy of eternal life. On the contrary, it's a story that suggests that Adam and Eve fell from grace and now need to repent to get back into grace.

That is not a creation that was created for the purpose of testing people to see if they qualify for eternal life, on the contrary, it's a story that goes back to the idea that mankind is responsible for all the evil in the world, which clearly is a false premise as shown above.

So the religion, as it's actually written up in the stories, does not hold true. The only way to try to salvage it is to pretend that it's a story about something that it was clearly never about in the first place.

The real truth is that mental illness exists in reality and there are people who are indeed mentally ill and insane. Moreover, any sane person can potentially become mentally ill at any time.

If a person is doing something insane, then it can only be because they are indeed an insane person.

So how do we distinguish between "sinners" and insane mentally ill people?

These hardcore fundamentalist Christians act like everyone should be sane and if anyone chooses to be insane that was there CHOICE.

This is why these kinds of 'judgmental Gods' can't work. The only way that could work is in a world where no one ever goes insane and there is no mental illness, but in such a world how could their be sinners? There couldn't be any sinners because to do something sinful would be insane. In fact, to claim that it's not insane would be to question why it's even considered to be a "sin" in the first place then!

So the very idea of a judgmental God passing judgments against people who are living in the world as it is simply makes no sense. This world simply isn't constructed in a way that would provide the proper stage for that kind of play.

Killing in not justified unless your own life is in danger.


Exodus 22:2


"If a thief is caught in the act of breaking into a house and is struck and killed in the process, the person who killed the thief is not guilty of murder.

If I have children, I leave. If I dont, I stay and fight.

Abra wrote..

. Mankind cannot possibly be responsible the the fact that this universe is clearly "designed

Designed and not by mankind. Thats so true so you should see,

Thiers more than you and me.... Grateful Abra.. Blessings of Yah's Shalom..Miles