And the gift was, Jesus giving his life to us. Giving his life while he lived, he lived to spread the laws of God. He healed the sick. He ultimately went through the pain a crucifixion in the end for us.

Who would care?

Considering who the "Father" is in these fables who cares?

I don't need Jesus to deny me to the "Father" in these fables. I deny the "Father" in these fables directly myself. The God depicted by these Hebrews is a picture of a sick demented male-chauvinistic pig.

I wouldn't have anything to do with such a sick demented "God".

Get a religion with a God what's worthy of my worship and maybe we can talk. Until there, there not "Gift" here worthy of my attention.

I'd rather suffer in "everlasting punishment' than worship such a sick perverted God of the Bible.

It's just a matter of principle.

Which would you chose? To serve Hitler to avoid his wrath? Of suffer his unrighteous wrath rather than condone his ungodly purpose?

Well, that's basically the choices that the Hebrews give you with their picture of a God. Either suck up to their religious bigotries and hatreds and male-chauvinism, or suffer they 'wrath' of their imaginary perverted demonic God.

Well, as a matter of principle, I'd have no choice but to suffer its wrath, because I could never condone it's unrighteousness.

Not threatening anyone. If God isn't real, what is there to feel threatened about? I can not threaten you with having the boogeyman sneak in your door tonight because you won't listen to me. Again, if God isn't real, what would there be to feel threatened about?

You assume I think God isn't real, when I do. It is YOUR God that I reject.

So you confess that there is only a threat if YOUR picture of God is real.

I agree with Kleisto.

This really isn't about "God" at all.

It's entirely about you acting as though either YOUR sick demented picture of God is real, or there is no God at all.

Like as if those on the only choices.

We try to speak about a truly righteous God.

But you're so hell-bent on making God out to be a monster that you refuse to allow anyone to paint a truly righteous or beautiful picture of God.

This is one reason why I gave up on Christianity altogether. There's nothing there that can be salvaged. It's so filled with sickness and perversion that it's impossible to save.

The very crucifixion of Jesus pretty much destroys it right there. It's an impossible religion to "clean up".

It's totally obsessed with notions of sin, blood sacrifices and a need to avoid everlasting punishment. It's just a very derogatory view of a God from the word go.

There are far better pictures of God to be had.

We just don't need all this negative crap.

the threat does not arise because someone don't believe that God is real..the threat comes from those that do believe that God is real, real or not people have killed in the name of

What would the threat accomplish? The threat would be "forcing" someone to believe. But you would have to believe in the first place for this "forcing" to be able to take place. So wouldn't make much sense. The person already believes, what would they be "forced" into? Or threatened into? Because ok again, if someone doesn't believe, they will not put much credit to the "threat". Cause they feel it's fairy tails anyways. And again if someone believes in God, what would they be being "forced" or "threatened" into?

as I said the threat is not from God...it's from the believers that are using their belief in God to deliver threats

Still, what would the threat accomplish? Would only accomplish pushing people away. No one, that I know, goes around straight out telling none believers they will burn for not believing, or anything a long those lines. Yes it has been mentioned on this forum in particular, because it has come up in certain different discussion. But it's not posted to threaten anyone. Would you rather be ignorant of it? Or would you rather be able to make a choice if you wish to worship God or not? Just merely enlightening people with this knowledge of certain possible outcomes of certain actions. Again, no threats. Pure enlightenment and informing.

you keep asking what would a threat accomplish...you keep looking in the wrong direction towards the receiver of the threat which is generally classified as being the victim....it's generally the deliver of the threat that gets some form of sadistic pleasure from the delivery of the threats

Yes, but there is generally a reason for the threat. If the threat won't accomplish anything, why would one do it? What would they get out of it? What rush or thrill would they be giving a threat to someone that is laughing in your face?

Enlightening people?

Oh please.

If you wanted to enlighten people you would confess to them the truth.

Truth - the entire collection of Hebrew tales have absolutely no independent historical evidence for their claims of supernatural events and divine authority.

Truth - the religion is entirely faith-based, and is based on an extremely fragmented initial rumors of Judaism.

Truth - The religion has broken into many opposing sects from Judaism, to Islam, to Catholicism.

Truth - Catholicism then fragmented into a myriad of disagreeing protesting camps.

Truth - No two theologians, scholars, or clergy can agree on what these fragmented religions stand for.

Truth - Cowboy's supposed "enlightenment" is nothing more than his own personal distortion of this grossly fragmented religion. There are many other "Christians" who don't even agree with his radical views.

Truth - Even these scriptures themselves have Jesus proclaim to the "Father" - "Father forgiven them for they know not what they do!"

It should be crystal clear to all Christians that Jesus himself does not condone the condemning of anyone for not knowing what they are doing.

Therefore, if anyone has any reason to doubt these stories and therefore does not believe in them, even Jesus himself would not condemn them because Jesus clearly does not condone the condemnation of people who "know not what they do".

And a person who has no reason to believe in something cannot be said to being "knowing" what they are doing by not believing it.

So in these stories Jesus himself proclaims at Calvary that he will not condemn non-believers, because a non-believer cannot possibly "know" what they are doing by not believing. The only way they could "know" would be if they had solid sound reasons to believe, and refused.

But that's clearly not the case, and can't be the case, because even the "believers" confess that "belief" is nothing more than a matter of faith.

Therefore it would be impossible for Jesus to 'condemn' anyone for not believing in these stories.

Yet, Cowboy is trying to "enlighten" people by claiming otherwise?

That's baloney.

Clearly it's Cowboy who needs to be "enlightened" about Jesus' own stance on the matter. Jesus does not condone the condemnation of people who "know not what they do".

And people who do not believe in something because they have good reasons for not believing it, cannot possibly be said to be "knowingly" rejected it.

There is no way that such a "charge" could be made to stick. Such a judgment would be totally unrighteous.

Even Jesus recognized this at Calvary and tried to "enlighten" the Father to this wisdom of this truth.

Condemning people for not believing in something would be foolish. Even Jesus recognized the wisdom in this as he tried to pass that wisdom onto the Father when he was dying at Calvary.

So Cowboy you're passing around "enlightenment" at all. All you're doing is preaching a very personal derogatory view of Jesus. A view that clearly Jesus himself would not even support according to these stories.

Jesus himself has proclaimed with his dying breath in these stories that he will not condemn anyone for anything that they do not fully understand.

And now you want to refute the dying breath of Jesus.

and with that you have given the answer...that when someone is laughing in your face is the reason why you would get pleasure out of delivering the threat to them ....

Exactly.

It's the age-old childish response:

"Go ahead and laugh. But you'll be sorry when daddy gets home!"



The whole thing is just an immature scam to begin with. It probably originally started out with parents telling their children these fables to keep them in line. But then they realized that even some adults were falling for the same stories so "religion" was born.

John 1247-48

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And the words Jesus has spoken.

Matthew 10:32-33

32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
========================

I condemn not. I know not if you will or will not go to heaven or not. I have not once said YOU will not be there. We've been through this before. I know not your fate, my fate, or anyone else's fate. No one does nor will they know until judgment day comes. Don't know where you get anyone's condemning anyone. We're just merely having a discussion Abra. And about the truths you posted, you have no more evidence of it being false as I do it being true. The only difference is, you have faith it is false and I have faith it is not. And I'm leaving the rest of your post alone, it amounts to nothing more then badgering the other.

There IS a reason for the threat, it's called CONTROL. Plain and simple.

Cowboy you FOCUS on the NEGATIVE!

You shove the worst possible verses in the mouth of your little Marionette Jesus Doll to try to portray an image of a condemning Jesus.

That's your CHOICE.

You CHOOSE to use the story of Jesus for NEGATIVE purposes.

You could JUST AS EASILY, agree with me, that Jesus clearly changed his mind about all of that at Calvary and clearly pleaded a case to the "Father God" himself that it's not wise to condemn people who do not fully understand what they are doing.

So it's YOUR CHOICE to continually paint Jesus out to be a dastardly jerk.

You aren't spreading "enlightenment" of any kind whatsoever.

All you are doing is trying to SHOVE your negative picture of Jesus and Christianity onto other people.



You flatly REFUSE to even consider anything POSITIVE!

All you care about is spreading NEGATIVITY in the name of Jesus.

And it's nothing more than your own personal views and agenda. It's absolutely false to suggest that Jesus or anyone else would support your constant negativity.

And how can you control anyone when they see it having no more merit then merry had a little lamb?

Those people aren't controlled obviously. It's those that are foolish enough to buy into it, that are the controlled ones.

And all you care about is trying to point fingers, trying to make the other person appear in a negative way. I've condemned no one, I used Jesus to condemn no one. That's what I don't get about you, we're DISCUSSING. No one's pointing fingers, no one's condemning the other. Not even insinuating it.

I see all positive. I see all the great love and compassion God has for us. The great love and compassion Jesus showed for us being crucified because of people that did not believe him. Yes, Jesus was willing not to "condemn" these people. Yes was asking for leeway for them, asking for compassion on them for their wrong doings. It is only you that sees the "negative" things, that truly aren't there.