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Topic: Does God even care?
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Fri 12/31/10 02:44 PM
CowboyGh wrote:









chocolina said...

So ...


You do believe that snakes can talk?


No...what have they been telling you to do?

according to the bible after this talk Eve and Adam were kicked out of Eden ..lol



It's an allegory. The Israelites associated some things with other ideas. Serpents represented wisdom. Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden and it can be assumed that angels were there too. The scripture tells you that "the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made."...so this "serpent" wasn't an animal, because it was more crafty than any animal God made. ("wild animal" could also be translated as "living thing in the land", which would include Adam and Eve!) In revelations, Satan is called "the serpent of old", which Christians believe is referring to the "serpent" in Genesis 3:1.


To use an allegory or parable means that since that moment the interpretation of the truth becomes just an assumption
hence - misunderstanding or many wrong and different ideas , the base of argue and endless debates.

There is no 1 serious reason to be use allegories and parables in such so important for all humans resources like bible and other holy books if they have been given to guide our life.

Hence we can say that all this is not by God given books but Israelites writers' ideas and concepts abt the God and life.





Parables are used so that we will understand.



The word "parable" comes from the Greek "παραβολή" (parabolē),
to any fictive illustration in the form of a brief narrative.


Have you heard in computers, physic sciences or medicine
someone to use parables except in religion and politic ?

...and the same with allegories





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Fri 12/31/10 02:50 PM

The word "parable" comes from the Greek "παραβολή" (parabolē),
to any fictive illustration in the form of a brief narrative.


Have you heard in computers, physic sciences or medicine
someone to use parables except in religion and politic ?

...and the same with allegories


I am a computer programmer and I use metaphors all the time, when explaining computer concepts to clients or supervisors who aren't technical enough to understand the technical answer.

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Fri 12/31/10 02:52 PM

Spidercmb wrote:



To use an allegory or parable means that since that moment the interpretation of the truth becomes just an assumption
hence - misunderstanding or many wrong and different ideas , the base of argue and endless debates.

There is no 1 serious reason to be use allegories and parables in such so important for all humans resources like bible and other holy books if they have been given to guide our life.

Hence we can say that all this is not by God given books but Israelites writers' ideas and concepts abt the God and life.


Allegory's serve many purposes.

1) It makes difficult concepts easier to understand.
2) It makes a concept more portable from one culture / language to another.

For God to reach as many people as possible with his Word, the allegory is a God-send, if you'll pardon the pun.

Does it matter if the serpent is a snake or an angel? That's missing the point of the story. The relationship between Man and God changed when Adam and Eve brought about the fall.




Wait .. wait ....

So you try to tell that God needs allegories and parables to talk
to people instead to manifest his existence in the most clear and undoubted for each one way ??!


and the talking serpent is first important points in the bible which changed the relation Man - God and in the same time
till now ppl continue to discuss, doubt or even laugh at it because this is "allegorical" way.


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Fri 12/31/10 02:56 PM


The word "parable" comes from the Greek "παραβολή" (parabolē),
to any fictive illustration in the form of a brief narrative.


Have you heard in computers, physic sciences or medicine
someone to use parables except in religion and politic ?

...and the same with allegories


I am a computer programmer and I use metaphors all the time, when explaining computer concepts to clients or supervisors who aren't technical enough to understand the technical answer.


And you gave in the end your metaphor - product to them ?
Or you gave them /and you wrote first of all / the most strict
done product ?


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Fri 12/31/10 03:26 PM

So you try to tell that God needs allegories and parables to talk
to people instead to manifest his existence in the most clear and undoubted for each one way ??!


That's called a strawman fallacy. I didn't say God couldn't appear to each of us, but it would violate God's purpose in creating the world in the first place. If each of us knew, without a doubt, that God existed, how many people wouldn't serve God? A big fat 0. But God wants to know who WANTS to worship him. God wants to know who will put the necessary effort into answering the question that we all ask "Is there a God?"


and the talking serpent is first important points in the bible which changed the relation Man - God and in the same time
till now ppl continue to discuss, doubt or even laugh at it because this is "allegorical" way.


So you would believe it, if it said "A beautiful, deceitful, dangerous, intelligent and wise-seeming angel", instead of "serpent"?

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Fri 12/31/10 03:28 PM

And you gave in the end your metaphor - product to them ?
Or you gave them /and you wrote first of all / the most strict
done product ?


I'm not sure what you are asking.

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Fri 12/31/10 03:47 PM



Parables are used so that we will understand. Parables are used so that we can get a closer relationship with our father. Rather then him being some form of dictator. Parables makes it easier to relate and understand what someone wants and why they would want it to be. It is more understanding then just saying it straight out. That is why people use them even today. "It's as cold as ice out there, she's hotter then a firecracker, man when he eats, he's pig" ect ect. Those are all parables.


parables are a form of trickery....a parable never have any true meaning..this is how the giver of the parables can use it to manipulate ...all a parable giver has to say is that the receiver of the parable simply mis-interpeted the parable that was given and there can be no dispute by the receiver of the parable that it wasn't mis-interpeted ...the parable giver has absolute power over what the parable means

proof of this is why there are so many different forms of Christianity because of how people mis-interpet and manipulate the parables of Jesus to mean anything they choose it to mean

this is why anything that is not told in direct truth is therefore a lie because it was told using lies ...a parable is a tale of lies


Not true. You can tell 5 people the same thing without using parables and get 5 different meanings of what you told the 5 people. There are different denominations because people wish to believe what they wish to believe. Parables have one meaning, just one interpretation. Example "It was ice cold outside". It's in parable form. Same with other parables, unless YOU wish for it to be a different meaning.

And you say parables are used for trickery. Then why do people still use them today, even in normal day conversations? If it's trickery, why does everyone wish to trick the other? What does one profit from trickery when saying "She's hotter then a firecracker"? There's no trickery, just parables are the easiest way to get the exact meaning to come out. I can say it's hot all day, and you'll get from that it's a warm day. But if it was extremely hot I could say it's boiling outside. That right there is why parables are and were used. It give more definition to the description of what you're saying.


how many parables are on your birth certificate?

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Fri 12/31/10 03:55 PM
Edited by Spidercmb on Fri 12/31/10 03:55 PM

how many parables are on your birth certificate?


Parables relate religious or ethical lessons and are not needed to explain pure facts.


Parable
a short story that uses familiar events to illustrate a religious or ethical point


I'm going to have to start charging you guys, if I have to keep giving you 5th grade English lessons...

Kleisto's photo
Fri 12/31/10 06:51 PM

That's called a strawman fallacy. I didn't say God couldn't appear to each of us, but it would violate God's purpose in creating the world in the first place. If each of us knew, without a doubt, that God existed, how many people wouldn't serve God? A big fat 0. But God wants to know who WANTS to worship him. God wants to know who will put the necessary effort into answering the question that we all ask "Is there a God?"


And just how do you claim to know that? Assuming much?

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Fri 12/31/10 06:57 PM


That's called a strawman fallacy. I didn't say God couldn't appear to each of us, but it would violate God's purpose in creating the world in the first place. If each of us knew, without a doubt, that God existed, how many people wouldn't serve God? A big fat 0. But God wants to know who WANTS to worship him. God wants to know who will put the necessary effort into answering the question that we all ask "Is there a God?"


And just how do you claim to know that? Assuming much?


Know what? I made several statements.

KerryO's photo
Fri 12/31/10 07:33 PM



Deuteronomy 24:16 (King James Version)

16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.


Ezekiel 18:20 (King James Version)

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


You should read more on a subject before you post.
"Sins of the father" means that the children of the wicked grow up doing the same things, not that they are punished for someone else's sin.

It's a very simple concept if you actually read the Bible.


And what did the Midianite children do that merited OT Fundy God ordering them slain by Moses? Worship the same Gods their parents did? Who else would they be worshipping and how could they, being children with profound bonds to their biological parents, possibly know that the God of Moses would see this as a capital crime?

Cloaking flawed reasoning in Holy Writ to justify the unjustifiable killing of childern doesn't make it any less flawed or morally reprehensible. With this sort of foundation, is it any wonder that rational Unbelievers have pronounced this religion, quite literally, unbelievable?

See no Evil, Hear No Evil, Never Speak Anything But the Party Line (even when it is itself, Evil).


-Kerry O.

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Fri 12/31/10 07:38 PM

And what did the Midianite children do that merited OT Fundy God ordering them slain by Moses? Worship the same Gods their parents did? Who else would they be worshipping and how could they, being children with profound bonds to their biological parents, possibly know that the God of Moses would see this as a capital crime?


The parents lives were so morally reprehensible, that God felt the need to kill all of them and wipe their civilization off the earth.
The children received a quick death, while their souls were morally neutral, it's a better outcome in the long run than living could have offered.

RainGrimoire's photo
Fri 12/31/10 07:41 PM
We're the cause of most of our problems. So, no. Were I looking at all this, I wouldn't be too happy.

KerryO's photo
Fri 12/31/10 07:51 PM


Mankind's relationship with God was changed by Adam and Eve. God frequently punished an entire society, when the whole society were steeped in sin. Adam represented all men and Eve represented all women.




If the Bible is true, there WAS no mankind before Adam and Eve.


And isn't it funny how the 'chosen' people dipped their toes in the sin of idolatry, but instead of being slaughtered, got 40 years of being LIVING nomads?

But you know what they say-- it's the victors who write the histories (usually in the blood of the vanquished, but who's counting).



Is the plan to repeatedly accuse Christians of being violent, until it finally happens?


I believe my words were 'militant religionists'-- I guess it's not too surprising that that was taken to mean _only_ fundamentalist Christians. But if the shoe fits (and there's a whole lotta history, starting with Paul, to chose from to show that it does)...


-Kerry O.

KerryO's photo
Fri 12/31/10 07:59 PM


And what did the Midianite children do that merited OT Fundy God ordering them slain by Moses? Worship the same Gods their parents did? Who else would they be worshipping and how could they, being children with profound bonds to their biological parents, possibly know that the God of Moses would see this as a capital crime?


The parents lives were so morally reprehensible, that God felt the need to kill all of them and wipe their civilization off the earth.
The children received a quick death, while their souls were morally neutral, it's a better outcome in the long run than living could have offered.


Aren't you forgetting the female virgins, who were given to Moses' tribe to serve as 'slaves'? I guess the male virgins didn't have what Moses' men needed, so they killed them? Gee, nothing morally reprehensible about that, eh?

What's really fascinating about the Midianite story is that some Christian historians will claim that the slaughter never _really_ happened, that it, too, was some kind of metaphor in the same breath that they declare the Bible to be literal and exclusively true.

-Kerry O.

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Fri 12/31/10 08:00 PM

And isn't it funny how the 'chosen' people dipped their toes in the sin of idolatry, but instead of being slaughtered, got 40 years of being LIVING nomads?


You've never read the Bible, if you had, you would know the above sentence isn't true.


I believe my words were 'militant religionists'-- I guess it's not too surprising that that was taken to mean _only_ fundamentalist Christians. But if the shoe fits (and there's a whole lotta history, starting with Paul, to chose from to show that it does)...


Pray tell, what violent acts were committed by Paul?

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Fri 12/31/10 08:16 PM

Aren't you forgetting the female virgins, who were given to Moses' tribe to serve as 'slaves'? I guess the male virgins didn't have what Moses' men needed, so they killed them? Gee, nothing morally reprehensible about that, eh?


They weren't taken as slaves. In Israelite culture, slavery was only legal if you sold yourself into slavery or you couldn't pay a penalty. Even then, the slavery ended on the 7th year.

The girls who were taken were to become servants (who had to be supported by the family) and when/if they married, they would become Jews and no longer be servants. There is nothing implying that they were raped. In fact, if you actually could be bothered to read the Bible before criticizing it, you would see that Jews who broke God's law at that time were killed by God or their own people. So the idea that Jewish men would risk raping women, when they had just seen 1/3 of their numbers killed by a plague brought on by eating blood doesn't make much sense.


What's really fascinating about the Midianite story is that some Christian historians will claim that the slaughter never _really_ happened, that it, too, was some kind of metaphor in the same breath that they declare the Bible to be literal and exclusively true.


Citation please?

Dragoness's photo
Fri 12/31/10 08:23 PM
Parables and ambiguity show a wish for unclear perceptions. There is no way around that fact.

The bible is so full of all of the above plus major hypocrisy that it is hard to believe that people have followed it as long as they have.

KerryO's photo
Fri 12/31/10 08:25 PM


And isn't it funny how the 'chosen' people dipped their toes in the sin of idolatry, but instead of being slaughtered, got 40 years of being LIVING nomads?


You've never read the Bible, if you had, you would know the above sentence isn't true.



Tired of apologizing for the Midianite slaughter already? Still in denial? :)




I believe my words were 'militant religionists'-- I guess it's not too surprising that that was taken to mean _only_ fundamentalist Christians. But if the shoe fits (and there's a whole lotta history, starting with Paul, to chose from to show that it does)...


Pray tell, what violent acts were committed by Paul?


Back when he was still Saul of Tarsus, he approved of the stoning of Saint Stephen. There are even some historians who say that Paul's imprisonment was in retribution for having had a hand in the murders of the same Christians he later identified with.

Whose to say that his sudden conversion on the road to Damascus wasn't a ruse to escape punishment? Or that his legend hasn't been tampered with to insure his martyrdom?

Of course, none of this will appear in the Bible-- maybe because it's alleged that Paul was the author of much of the NT?

Either way, it's also pretty difficult to ignore his flip-flopping from zealous Jew to a his later stance that the Jews were the Christ-killers.


-Kerry O.






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Fri 12/31/10 08:28 PM

Parables and ambiguity show a wish for unclear perceptions. There is no way around that fact.

The bible is so full of all of the above plus major hypocrisy that it is hard to believe that people have followed it as long as they have.


Parables make the concepts easier to understand.

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