Topic: Catch 22
RainbowTrout's photo
Thu 12/02/10 05:38 AM
Do you believe that God can make a believer out of you?:smile:

sacbaby's photo
Thu 12/02/10 06:21 AM
:angel: Sure, God make a believer out of me. And Merry Christmas! Happy Birthday! Jesus.

CowboyGH's photo
Thu 12/02/10 10:09 AM
No God can not MAKE a believer out of you. That revolves all around you. God can show you aaaaaaaaall kinds of signs through out your life, but nevertheless it all revolves around YOU and weather you wish to believe or not. For if it did not revolve around you believing, it would be our father taking away your free will if he MADE you believe. Yes God can influence our decision, but he can never make it for you.

RainbowTrout's photo
Thu 12/02/10 03:50 PM
I think the best influence that God has given me is his word. I like reading that his word is Jesus. Because Jesus has been such a wonderful friend for me.

CowboyGH's photo
Thu 12/02/10 06:54 PM

I think the best influence that God has given me is his word. I like reading that his word is Jesus. Because Jesus has been such a wonderful friend for me.


amen brother!!

RainbowTrout's photo
Fri 12/03/10 07:39 PM
One of the things we say in our meetings is that acceptance is the key. We try to start our meetings with the Serenity Prayer and end it with the Lord's Prayer. We accept the nonbelievers at our meetings and they tolerate us. I guess you could call that acceptance, too. The first thing I had to do after admitting my problem was to acceptant something really big for me and that was that I was not God. I mean I knew I wasn't God but it goes deeper than that for me because of my belief. If I didn't it would be like that George Burns movie, "Oh, God You Devil." It would be like I was talking to myself and talking to myself wouldn't really be like like praying it would be this catch-22 or like some kind of contradiction in terms. It was the 180 turn for me because not only was I wrong but 180 degrees wrong. I have heard this spoken of as God was exactly where I left him. He didn't go anywhere but I had left God. I had to accept God on his terms for me to accept reality on its terms. Tonight at the meeting we were going over 157 of the Big Book. It reminded me when the drunk said that he was nobody but the people who 12 stepped him were somebody. The utterly hopeless of his viewpoint reminded me of my last drunk and also of how I returned back to God. In other words, Acceptance is the key. When God closes one door he opens another one. I remember one drunk who told us that he came in teaching patience and tolerance because you had to have patience and tolerance to put up with him. The Bible says that God's spirit will not always strive with man. As you say it is about preference and choice. It is like the door.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. God will meet with us if we meet with him.:smile:

Dodo_David's photo
Mon 12/06/10 03:49 PM
Edited by Dodo_David on Mon 12/06/10 03:52 PM

it would be our father taking away your free will if he MADE you believe.


Free will? Just where does the Bible say that God gives each person unlimited free will?

In John 6:44 Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

In John 6:65 Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

In Exodus 3:21 God says to Moses, "I will make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward this people . . ."

In Exodus 7:3 God says to Moses, "I will harden Pharaoh’s heart . . ."

In Ephesians 1:4 the Apostle Paul says about God, "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

In Romans 9:16-18 Paul says, "It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

In Romans 11:7-8 Paul states, "What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day.”"

God has the ability and authority to manipulate a person's will, and the Bible indicates that God has manipuated the will of people.

God permits each of us to make choices within boundaries that God establishes, but we cannot thwart the boundaries that God has established.

My decision to become a Christian was the result of God the Father choosing to draw me to Jesus. He did not have to make that choice. He could have chosen to harden my heart just like he hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

The Bible does not say that God gives people unlimited free will.

The belief that God gives people unlimited free will comes from the desire of the flesh.

CowboyGH's photo
Mon 12/06/10 06:15 PM


it would be our father taking away your free will if he MADE you believe.


Free will? Just where does the Bible say that God gives each person unlimited free will?

In John 6:44 Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

In John 6:65 Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

In Exodus 3:21 God says to Moses, "I will make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward this people . . ."

In Exodus 7:3 God says to Moses, "I will harden Pharaoh’s heart . . ."

In Ephesians 1:4 the Apostle Paul says about God, "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

In Romans 9:16-18 Paul says, "It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

In Romans 11:7-8 Paul states, "What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day.”"

God has the ability and authority to manipulate a person's will, and the Bible indicates that God has manipuated the will of people.

God permits each of us to make choices within boundaries that God establishes, but we cannot thwart the boundaries that God has established.

My decision to become a Christian was the result of God the Father choosing to draw me to Jesus. He did not have to make that choice. He could have chosen to harden my heart just like he hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

The Bible does not say that God gives people unlimited free will.

The belief that God gives people unlimited free will comes from the desire of the flesh.


No we have total free will. God can change you heart, that is not making you do an action. God does NOT "make" us do certain actions. ALL actions we take in our lives is what we CHOOSE to do with our FREE WILL. Our father wishes for us to use our will for him, yes. But nevertheless we still can choose willingly to not listen and or obey.

RainbowTrout's photo
Tue 12/07/10 06:17 PM
Joshua 24:15 (King James Version)

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Here is a place in the Bible where the man of the house makes a decision for his whole household. He even decides what is not evil for him. I like this decision because I always have felt that serving the Lord is not evil.:smile:

Dodo_David's photo
Wed 12/08/10 05:29 PM

No we have total free will.

Where does the Bible say that humans have total free will?

msharmony's photo
Wed 12/08/10 06:01 PM

Do you believe that God can make a believer out of you?:smile:



God is limitless he can do anything. The question is does he choose to make a believer out of me and how.

The answer is he can and he does so by giving me the resources to do so