Topic: Whether you are for or against...
Redykeulous's photo
Wed 11/10/10 07:13 PM
Read the latest (below) and make a prediction, what do you think will happen?

November 10, 2010
Lambda Legal’s Jon Davidson on the DOMA lawsuits
Cross-posted from LGBTPOV.

By Karen Ocamb

While so much attention is being paid to the legal and legislative skirmishes over Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, the Massachusetts-based Gay & Lesbian Advocates & Defenders and the ACLU’s LGBT Rights Project have been working on constitutional challenges to the federal Defense of Marriage Act. Lambda Legal has also been working on fighting DOMA and on Monday filed a brief in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California in the case of Golinski v. United States Office of Personnel Management.

This is an interesting case because Karen Golinski is an employee of the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. She is suing the Obama administration’s Office of Personnel Management (OPM) and its openly gay Director, John Berry, to secure spousal health insurance benefits for her wife, Amy Cunninghis – the same benefits afforded spouses of the court’s heterosexual employees

Earlier this year, Ninth Circuit Chief Judge Alex Kozinski agreed with Lambda that refusing Golinski those benefits for her spouse violate the court’s own employment discrimination policy. He ordered Blue Cross/Blue Shield to enroll Cunninghis in the court’s plan. But OPM told Blue Cross/Blue Shield not to. Lambda is seeking an injunction against OPM – again, a department run by an openly gay man – to stop interfering with Kozinski’s orders.

Lambda says the brief filed yesterday is in response to questions raised Oct. 15th by federal District Judge Jeffrey S. White. Among the questions he asked was whether DOMA violates the U.S. Constitution. Lambda told White that he doesn’t have to decide the whole enchilada – whether DOMA itself is unconstitutional – only that Golinski’s case shows that DOMA’s application in blocking equal employment benefits is unconstitutional. The brief explains that DOMA is discriminatory because of “congressional disapproval” of how same sex couples exercise their fundamental rights of intimacy and marriage.

Jon Davidson, Lambda Legal’s Legal Director, said in a statement:

“The Obama Administration’s aggressive efforts to prevent the court from enforcing its nondiscrimination protections may lead to DOMA’s undoing. This began as an internal personnel matter, but the Administration has upped the ante.

The Executive Branch shouldn’t be interfering with the Judiciary’s efforts to avoid employment discrimination. Even more so, the Administration shouldn’t be invoking DOMA, a law it agrees is discriminatory, as a reason to prevent the courts from compensating their lesbian and gay employees equally. One federal court has already held DOMA unconstitutional. This could be the second.”

I asked Davidson to put the DOMA lawsuits into a broader context.

Here’s his reply:

“Unfortunately, the last two years saw no movement in Congress to put an end to DOMA’s harms and, given the election, we’re unlikely to see legislative progress for at least two more years.

When the government violates the Constitution and our elected officials refuse to do anything about it, it falls to the courts to enforce the Constitution’s promises of liberty and equality for all. We won’t be intimidated by the thugs at the National Organization for Marriage into shying away from demanding that the judiciary stand up to its responsibility to ensure that constitutional rights are protected, and we are confident that judges will follow their oaths to uphold our nation’s loftiest principles of justice.

DOMA has now been held unconstitutional by one federal district court judge and, with the latest suits by GLAD and the ACLU and the developments in Lambda Legal’s Golinski case, the constitutionality of DOMA is now at issue before three more district courts. It is only a matter of time before DOMA is struck down.

Denying federal benefits to same-sex couples who are lawfully married under the laws of the state where they live is an outrageous overreach by the federal government. Since our country’s founding, the federal government has respected state determinations of who is married and there is no reason except for prejudice to treat the marriages of same-sex couples differently. It is past time for the Department of Justice to admit that and to stop making arguments that are hurting LGBT people’s quest for equal rights.”

A hearing in the case of Golinski v. United States Office of Personnel Management is scheduled for December 17th. Lambda Legal represents Karen Golinski with James McGuire and Rita Lin of Morrison & Foerster LLP.


InvictusV's photo
Wed 11/10/10 07:43 PM
Even if it is unconstitutional it isn't going to change anything.

States issue marriage licenses and it will still be their decision on whether or not they accept a license from another state.

no photo
Wed 11/10/10 08:46 PM
its ok..we have legalized same sex marriage here in my country...Gay americans are showing up by the boatload (literally) to get married and leave their dollars here...

of course, the catch is at least one of the couples has to be an Argentine citizen in order to be wed legally..still the tourism industry is happy about it.

Thomas3474's photo
Wed 11/10/10 08:59 PM
Government needs to butt out of marriage gay or straight.It is none of their business.All these law suits are just wasting tax payers money on issues that should be left to the voters not the Government.Marriage isn't a right and marriage isn't in the Constitution or the bill of rights,therefore Government doesn't need to waste time worrying about it.

boredinaz06's photo
Wed 11/10/10 09:35 PM
Gay americans are showing up by the boatload (literally)

at first read I thought it said butt load!laugh

Redykeulous's photo
Wed 11/10/10 10:17 PM
Edited by Redykeulous on Wed 11/10/10 10:22 PM
In response to Invictus

For over 200 years the Federal government has deferred marriage to the States.

The Federal government is not a state; its laws, based on the Constitution, are Supreme. In other words, all States must recognize and yield to Federal law. There can be no conflict between State and Federal Law.

DOMA is a federally established law which preempted States rights in creating or enforcing their own marriage laws and policies. The Federal government cannot have a Supreme law of the land and then allow states to override it as they see fit.

At the same time, there is a huge problem when legal issues are deferred to States power, but not recognized or upheld at the Federal level.

DOMA has created a serious conflict. Either laws pertaining to marriage are deferred to States or they are governed at the federal level, it cannot be both.

If States, in fact, have authority to regulate marriage within the state, then whatever laws they make pertaining to marriage must be recognized equally under federal law as with any other State’s marriage laws.

That means that a state has the right to extend marriage, inclusive of all state law and regulations, to any couple as they see fit. The federal government would then be required to accept the validity of any marriage which that state endorses and extend coverage of all federal law regarding marriage to anyone who has been married in that state.

In terms of gay marriage that means that a couple could possibly marry in any state in which their union is deemed acceptable. That couple is then free to move to any other state without invalidating, at the federal level, their marriage performed in another state.

The couple may not be considered legally married by their new home state and they would loose the coverage of law pertaining to marriage in that state. But their marriage would remain valid with regard to federal law.

That is what the 3 new legal cases are all about.

Thus the question, how do you think it will turn out? Would you keep marriage in the hands of the State or at the Federal level?


Redykeulous's photo
Wed 11/10/10 10:19 PM

Government needs to butt out of marriage gay or straight.It is none of their business.All these law suits are just wasting tax payers money on issues that should be left to the voters not the Government.Marriage isn't a right and marriage isn't in the Constitution or the bill of rights,therefore Government doesn't need to waste time worrying about it.


so you think Congress should repeal DOMA?

Thomas3474's photo
Thu 11/11/10 02:30 AM


Government needs to butt out of marriage gay or straight.It is none of their business.All these law suits are just wasting tax payers money on issues that should be left to the voters not the Government.Marriage isn't a right and marriage isn't in the Constitution or the bill of rights,therefore Government doesn't need to waste time worrying about it.


so you think Congress should repeal DOMA?



I think they should stay out of marriage period.Why is this even a government issue?What does this have to do with the Constitution or the bill of rights?Nothing!It's nothing but a huge waste of time and money.Do we need the Government to stick it's nose into birthday parties,anniversaries,funerals,and other events?Isn't marriage just another tradition that has never had anything to do with the government?

If these issues are not rights and if they are not mentioned in the Constitution or the bill of rights then let the people deal with them at the local level.We don't constantly need the brain dead government telling the people of this country that any of these traditions and ceremonies are now their property,under their control,and will be defined as what they are by what the Government tells us they should be.

It's horse shi*!

We have our Constitution and the bill of rights.Anything that does not deal with this issues(such as marriage)should legally be dealt with the voters to determine what it defines and who it affects.This country is acting like a dictatorship with this marriage BS telling the people what it is and who it involves.

But thank God people are putting a halt to this liberal,political correct,BS.The removal of 3 superior court judges in Iowa was a great start.Judges are going to learn one way or another it is the people that have the final word.


Chazster's photo
Thu 11/11/10 04:55 AM
How can the government not be involved when government related issues are tied directly to marriage? You ever done your taxes? Filing single or married give different credits. If you are married and you have insurance at work your spouse can be covered. There are inheritance laws, spousal privilege laws for courts etc. Te list goes on and on.

Redykeulous's photo
Thu 11/11/10 11:19 AM
Edited by Redykeulous on Thu 11/11/10 11:20 AM

How can the government not be involved when government related issues are tied directly to marriage? You ever done your taxes? Filing single or married give different credits. If you are married and you have insurance at work your spouse can be covered. There are inheritance laws, spousal privilege laws for courts etc. Te list goes on and on.


That's kind of the perspective of a lot of people. But the truth is that federal laws (over 1100 of the them) which are tied to marriage will be tied to marriage no matter what a State determines marriage to be or consist of.

So in effect, the federal government has NEVER cared to regulate marriage but only to use it to extend certain federal protections, benefits, and responsibilities to those who are married - under any law or policy that any state designates.

While State policies pertaining to marriage certainly include some benefits and responsibility they do not hold a candles amount of worth in comparison to the Federal laws which encompass marriage.



Dragoness's photo
Thu 11/11/10 11:26 AM
Let the people be married if they want tonoway

It would cost us a lot less in legal fees and time spent and it isn't anyone's damn business anyway.

Just think of the fees that can be made from the more marriages and divorces.

As to DADT, it was stupid to begin with and needs to be repealed.

People know other people are gay and it doesn't change how a person does their job.

no photo
Thu 11/11/10 01:00 PM
Edited by Spidercmb on Thu 11/11/10 01:37 PM
Our system is a civilian government giving the military their orders. That doesn't mean the government should be writing policy or regulations for the military. The government should keep their laws to themselves and let the military recruit whom they want and apply the policies that they think best. They are, after all, the ones who have to live with the consequences.

Edit: Whoa, I was busy and just read the first line, so I thought this was about DADT. Marriage is currently a contractual agreement between two people. People tend to force it to be between a man and a woman. If they really wanted to defend marriage, they would get the government out of it and make marriage a religious institution. Then the government should allow "civil unions" or "marital contracts" or whatever between any consenting parties of the age of majority. If you want to be married, go to the church. If you want it to count, go to the court house. If you are a woman and you want to marry a woman, go for it. If you want to marry two men, go for it. If you want to marry 20 women, go for it. The government shouldn't be legislating personal morality on that level.

static28's photo
Thu 11/11/10 01:11 PM
i was living in iowa when they legalized gay marriage there. a coworker of mine invited me to his marriage. it was interesting. really no different than a normal wedding, although a few things were different. the pastor i guess(sorry i dont go to church) wore a rainbow colored scarf/sash thing. instead of you may kiss the bride it was you may embrace. instead of i now pronounce you man and wife, they just said i now pronounce you harry and scott.... but yeah, let people be happy. i dont see how letting people get married harms anyone else. i thought the purpose of law was to protect peoples rights and safety. not allowing people to get married is ridiculous. and the whole "ruining the sanctity of marriage" argument is a joke. what percentage of marriage ends in divorce? like 50-60% or something crazy.

InvictusV's photo
Fri 11/12/10 07:47 AM

In response to Invictus

For over 200 years the Federal government has deferred marriage to the States.

The Federal government is not a state; its laws, based on the Constitution, are Supreme. In other words, all States must recognize and yield to Federal law. There can be no conflict between State and Federal Law.

DOMA is a federally established law which preempted States rights in creating or enforcing their own marriage laws and policies. The Federal government cannot have a Supreme law of the land and then allow states to override it as they see fit.

At the same time, there is a huge problem when legal issues are deferred to States power, but not recognized or upheld at the Federal level.

DOMA has created a serious conflict. Either laws pertaining to marriage are deferred to States or they are governed at the federal level, it cannot be both.

If States, in fact, have authority to regulate marriage within the state, then whatever laws they make pertaining to marriage must be recognized equally under federal law as with any other State’s marriage laws.

That means that a state has the right to extend marriage, inclusive of all state law and regulations, to any couple as they see fit. The federal government would then be required to accept the validity of any marriage which that state endorses and extend coverage of all federal law regarding marriage to anyone who has been married in that state.

In terms of gay marriage that means that a couple could possibly marry in any state in which their union is deemed acceptable. That couple is then free to move to any other state without invalidating, at the federal level, their marriage performed in another state.

The couple may not be considered legally married by their new home state and they would loose the coverage of law pertaining to marriage in that state. But their marriage would remain valid with regard to federal law.

That is what the 3 new legal cases are all about.

Thus the question, how do you think it will turn out? Would you keep marriage in the hands of the State or at the Federal level?




Congress isn't going to repeal it.

The SCOTUS will have the final say and I don't have a clue how they will view it..

DOMA is not the first federal law dealing with marriage.

The Edmunds ACT of 1882 established polygamy as a crime.

It is still on the books.

Some of the arguments made to end DOMA could very well be used to overturn Edmunds. Although, there have been several attempts to overturn it and the SCOTUS has ruled the act is constitutional.

We shall see..




filmcrazy77's photo
Tue 11/16/10 01:35 AM
I have a lot of gay friends, two of which are about to adopt and they will make the most amazing parents. I find it interesting that we should be separating church and state and politics does anything but.

Religion is dangerous (note that I didn't say God) when wading in the pool of morality. The kind of hate that has been perpetuated by people claiming that it comes from God is obscene.

Republicans say that they want less government, but not if it means they have to stay out of people's bedrooms and tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body.

I love politics and I nearly can't help myself. I also wish I could do away with the party systems so that people can vote specifically on issues. Yet the amount of hipocracy that takes place on both sides (and bipartisanship is a pipe dream at this point) is mind numbing.

My gay friends love each other as much as any man/woman, they are faithful, they are intelligent, they VOTE, and there is no difference between there love and the love of any other. It's not anyone's choice to be straight just like it's not a choice to be gay. And imagine if everyone around you was gay and you were straight. Then imagine you fall in love and everyone is sitting up on a pedastal they built themselves in order to point a finger at you and say "you have no right" to love the person you love. You'd be outraged. This issue is outrageous. People need to wake up, educate themselves and stop hiding behind ignorance.

The divorce rate among straight couples is insanely high...maybe we should give someone else a shot at longevity.

msharmony's photo
Tue 11/16/10 01:56 AM
Edited by msharmony on Tue 11/16/10 01:59 AM
leave the foundation of life between a man and a woman and continue to honor that in marriage


leave adults to name their dependents(adult and minor) and stop trying to redefine what marriage is


if I have an adult dependent upon me, whatever their biology(my mother, lover, brother, whatever), let the insurance reflect that and cover it appropriately,,,

it will turn out in the favor of whomever yells loudest during election years,,,as usual

Thomas3474's photo
Tue 11/16/10 03:05 AM

I have a lot of gay friends, two of which are about to adopt and they will make the most amazing parents. I find it interesting that we should be separating church and state and politics does anything but.

Religion is dangerous (note that I didn't say God) when wading in the pool of morality. The kind of hate that has been perpetuated by people claiming that it comes from God is obscene.

Republicans say that they want less government, but not if it means they have to stay out of people's bedrooms and tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body.

I love politics and I nearly can't help myself. I also wish I could do away with the party systems so that people can vote specifically on issues. Yet the amount of hipocracy that takes place on both sides (and bipartisanship is a pipe dream at this point) is mind numbing.

My gay friends love each other as much as any man/woman, they are faithful, they are intelligent, they VOTE, and there is no difference between there love and the love of any other. It's not anyone's choice to be straight just like it's not a choice to be gay. And imagine if everyone around you was gay and you were straight. Then imagine you fall in love and everyone is sitting up on a pedastal they built themselves in order to point a finger at you and say "you have no right" to love the person you love. You'd be outraged. This issue is outrageous. People need to wake up, educate themselves and stop hiding behind ignorance.

The divorce rate among straight couples is insanely high...maybe we should give someone else a shot at longevity.



laugh Man thats a funny post.It reads almost like it was copied from Micheal moore book.


If you love politics then you would know the the church does not write laws,make laws,dictate laws,have it's own court system,have it's own police force,or a military.Nothing the Government does comes from the bible,is enforced by the bible,or was written by the bible.

So if you can find where homosexuals are suffering under laws by our Government that is enforced by the bible,the church,Jesus Christ,or some other Christian type of Government I strongly urge you to do so because the people of America do not abide by any laws written using the bible.


Hate from Christians???Do you not realize that Christians have always held the majority on voting issues since this country was founded?Do you not realize that even if all the Atheist and other religions voted no on all issues it wouldn't matter because Christians make up at least 80% of the population?

Knowing that fact,we can all say that the reasons gays can live their life any way they want in America is because of the Christians.As a matter of fact gays have the best overall quality of life because of Christian majority countries.Why don't your gay friends trying being openly gay in non Christian majority countries like China and anywhere in the middle east where you are promised a quick death sentance.How about Africa?Death or jail.

I think if I was a gay person looking for a country I would certianly choose a Christian majority country.


Wow it's not anyones choice to be gay or straight?I suppose if that is true we should at least expect a 50/50 chance someone will be born either straight or gay.I think the psycologist would be having overload from people wondering who sex they should date.

That is a classic cop out statement people are bored of hearing and has no evidence to back it up.There is no scientific proof gay people are any different then anyone else.Not only that there has been millions of people who were formally gay and changed their mind and married straight people.Anne hech(ellen degeneres)former lesbian girlfriend is now married to a male and has children is a prime example.I can give you stories from thousands of gays who converted to Christianity and are no longer gay and will never be again.

I guess if you really are born gay and you started dating people of the opposite sex we should put you into counseling and therpy to get you to be gay again? slaphead Yeah good luck selling that one.


I am awake and just like your gay friends I vote.One thing I don't need to hear is how I should be forced to accept a lifestyle I don't approve of.Gays are no better than anyone else in this country and should start accepting that.

As far as the Christians goes...Christians are simply standing up for what they have always believed in.It is the gays who are demanding the Christians turn into Atheists.Christians are not any different then they were 100 years ago.

Chazster's photo
Tue 11/16/10 03:59 AM
Ok I want to say a couple things. One saying that if people were born gay or not would mean they have a 50-50 shot of being gay or straight is just BS. There have been studies around this topic but just psychological ones. I think once we map the entire human genome We will find what makes people gay or not. IMO

Secondly someone mentioned their gay friends adobting and I am not sure I support that just because I am not sure how it will effect the child. I know I wouldn't have wanted to deal with that as a kid. Especially in America. As if kids are not cruel enough already.

s1owhand's photo
Tue 11/16/10 05:19 AM
although the fed govt deferred marriage to the state traditionally
most americans view marriage as being defined by the union between
opposite sexes.

thus most americans do not view same sex unions as marriage and
wish to distinguish same sex unions and marriage. it becomes a
federal issue when different states interpretations conflict as
is the case here and it will require federal intervention to
settle the conflict.

if the feds decide not to settle the conflict then each state will
be left to define marriage on their own and there would be gay
marriage states and states where gay marriage is not recognized
as we have it now.

if the feds do intervene then the issue will be decided based on
national referendum more or less with the likely outcome civil
unions of some form.

s1owhand's photo
Tue 11/16/10 05:19 AM
Edited by s1owhand on Tue 11/16/10 05:35 AM
double post...

As it stands now, DOMA passed and the states formally each have
the ability to define marriage independently as they wish. It
also defines marriage as a union between one man and one woman
for federal purposes but leaves open the issue of possible civil
unions which could qualify for federal benefits.