If you believe that ANY PART of the Old Covenant was spared from being done away with, then you MUST know and understand the Old Covenant.

So I ask you – Where in the Old Testament are the 10 commandments and the rest of the law ever considered anything other than a WHOLE LAW?

When Moses was given THE LAW by God – what did you think that law consisted of?

Both those questions are very important because what you believe and what you preach to others is conflicted and inconsistent.

If Jesus is your model then see the model for what it was and understand that model from the perspective of the Old Testament – after all he spent a lot of years shining light on the OLD law so that others could recognize the difference between the Old and the New covenant.

Regarding Judgment:

I think you are incorrect – below is my reasoning.



In fact Jesus was the MODEL man, he did not judge, that was not his mission, his mission was to be a model of NON-judgment for everyone.

There is not a WORD in the flesh – it is in spirit only that the WORD exists. Jesus was not the WORD, Jesus was flesh, like every other man.



You think that the only benefit you get from Jesus physical suffering was to be dismissed from sacrificing animals?

If that’s the case then I think Jesus must have been a greater savior to animals than to man.

I understand your position and why you would dismiss the whole thing. But the fact is - as you said - people are going to believe, one way or another.

My personal findings are a bit different than yours (like everyone else, I'm interpreting)

I find that the New Covenant actually support a great deal of what you believe of Jesus and it does so in a way that makes it easier for Christians to swallow. THE PROBLEM is they don't see it.

They have been lied to and misdirected and somehow think that faith alone gives them knowledge. Well if that's what they want to believe I want to help them keep their FAITH but from the perspective of the New Covenant.

But I havn't gotten to the New Covenant yet in this thread - so be patient - there is a LOT to undo here.

Jesus did judge and the entire bible encourages judging to avoid hanging out with the wrong people.What Jesus was speaking about is the hypocrites.There is probably several hundred websites devoted to this subject and anyone who understands the bible knows that judging people to avoid them is not wrong.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/october1/29.70.html

In three words, blunt and absolute, Jesus commanded us, "Do not judge" (Matt. 7:1). But did he really mean that we should never judge others? He goes on to suggest that it's not the act of judging but the attitude with which we do it that God is most concerned about—"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged" (7:2).

There are other Scriptures that either cloud or shed light on the issue. Paul told the Christians in Rome not to judge one another (Rom. 14:13) but taught the Corinthians that they were to judge sinful believers and leave people outside the church to God (1 Cor. 5:12-13). James said he who judges his brother speaks against the law (4:11) but also implied that our judgments of others must be done with mercy (2:12-13).


http://catholicexchange.com/2007/11/14/80923/

In Luke 12:56-58, Jesus told the crowd, "You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky; why do you not know how to interpret the present time? Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the constable, and the constable throw you into prison" (NAB).

In John 7:24, Jesus said, "Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly" (NAB.) That same chapter goes on to record how some religious leaders (Pharisees) debated among themselves about how they were to deal with Jesus until Nicodemus, a member of their group, pointedly asked, "Does our law condemn a person before it first hears him and finds out what he is doing?" (John 7:51, NAB).

The following chapter, John 8, begins with religious leaders (Pharisees, again) bringing an adulterous women to be stoned, then ends with the group trying to stone Jesus! In between those episodes, Jesus told them, "You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he (God the Father) who sent me" (John 8:15-16). Regarding religious people who kept trying to trip him up, Jesus said in verse 26, "I have much to say about you and much to judge…."

In John 12:46-50, Jesus told the crowd, "I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness. And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So what I say, I say as the Father told me" (NAB).

Romans 2:1-3 offers a strong word of caution for those who judge others without inspecting themselves first: "Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things. We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true. Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?" (NAB).

Again, reflecting Jesus' teachings, James 4:11-12 says, "Do not speak evil of one another, brothers. Whoever speaks evil of a brother or judges his brother speaks evil of the law and judges the law. If you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save or to destroy. Who then are you to judge your neighbor?" (NAB).

http://preacherstudy.com/premium/som-24.html

1. Examine Yourself Before Judging Others.
2. Be Sure of the Facts in Judging Others.
3. Show Mercy in Judging Others.
4. Deal As Privately As Possible, as Long as Possible when You Judge Another.
5. Watch Out for Hypocrisy when You Judge.
6. Don’t Rush to Judgment.

This is absolutely totally false.

If you truly believe this then you are just displaying a very misguided notion of what science even does.

Besides, reducing science to mere hearsay doesn't help your case.

I've told you many times before, if you want to take the stance that nothing is provable and everything is hearsay, then you'd only place yourself in a position where you'd have to confess that All the Abrahamic religions are on precisely equal footing, right along with all the Eastern Mystical religions, right along with Wicca, and even atheism really.

When you claim that science is nothing but hearsay, then you place everything on precisely the same level.

That doesn't help your case one iota. All it does is reduce everything to being precisely as much of a guess as anything else.

So where are you going with that?

The Bible does not constitute an official history book. Especially with respect to its claims of spiritual interventions or miracles by Gods.

It's a cannon of stories that was selected with a particular bias to try to support a particular superstitious tale. Moreover, none of the claims of supernatural events in the Bible have ever been supported or backed-up by separate credible historical records.

Besides, you seem to be totally missing the MAJOR POINT here.

My major objection to the Jesus story is that I don't believe that an all-wise God would leave something as important as his NEW COVENANT to mankind up to second-hand hearsay rumors.

This can't be viewed as just any ordinary history book written by men. It's supposed to be the WORD OF GOD that presents God's NEW COVENANT to all of mankind.

I'm suppose to believe that an all-wise God would do something so sloppily?

Sorry, again, NO SALE.

He used "your way of thinking" and you ask him where he's going with it?

It's obvious to me that you don't like that logic, so why use it yourself?

So you actualliy are agreeing with him on that point... Your logic is flawed...

You are continually jumping
to wild and erroneous conclusions
about someone you don't even know

Based on your misguided notion
that I am "searching" for "gods"
I feel safe to believe that you do not possess
the ability to comprehend Panentheism

If I worship the creator of this universe
am I not worshiping the one true God?

Or do you think that someone else other than God
created the Universe?

No, he didn't use "my way of thinking" at all.

First off, he claimed that science is nothing but hearsay, which is false.

Secondly, I reject the Bible for a myriad of very valid reasons. Not simply because it can't be proven.

I reject it because there is actually hardcore evidence against it.

1. Mankind cannot be responsible for bringing imperfection into the world because we know that imperfections existed long before mankind did.

2. The very story of Adam and Eve is a logical contradiction in it's own right.

3. It's a contradiction that an unchanging God would deal with human sinners one moment by flooding them out, and then next by offering his son as a blood sacrifice to pay for their sins.

4. It is my own personal opinion that the entire way that the Biblical God has dealt with mankind's sinful behavior has been extremely unwise and grossly inefficient. Even the Bible agrees with the later since it has this God losing the vast majority of souls that it creates.

5. It's my own personal opinion that the way that this God handled the Canaanites and his "Promised Land" was also grossly unwise.

(I'll grant you that these are indeed personal opinions, but still if I have a personal opinion on a scientific topic I'll voice that too, and isn't Cowboy comparing this with science?)

In other words if the Bible was a scientific experiment I'd say it failed.

I could go on and on, listing many more reasons why I don't believe the book is the word of any God.

I think I just mentioned that I personally don't believe it would be wise for a God to present his NEW COVENANT to all of mankind via hearsay rumors rather than just writing it up in his own hand.

I also think it's truly absurd to think that Jesus would have had to come back as a Ghost and get Paul to finish writing up his NEW COVENANT.

FINALLY I have a far better theory.

The theory that the Old Testament is nothing more than mythology just like Greek Mythology (and not really all that much different from it), and that Jesus was a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who taught against the moral values of the Torah and was crucified for his views, and the New Testament is just superstitious rumors that grew out of that.

That theory WORKS. It works in the sense that it answers all questions and solves all contradictions in a reasonable way. It's also extremely plausible because Mahayana Buddhism was at his peak at the time Jesus was supposed to have lived. Many Jews at that time were actually pantheistic in mindset (that would have potentially included Jesus), and the actual MORAL TEACHINGS of Jesus match up with the teachings of Mahayana Buddhism, but they don't match up with the moral teachings of the Torah.

So the theory is sound. Everything was in place to make it work. And it answers all questions with no contradictions.

So Occam's Razor favors this theory.

It works, it solves all problems, and it's simpler.

I have every good reason to reject the Bible as the "Word of God" and no good reason to accept it as such.

So this leaves me one last thing to ask.

Would I want to just place pure BLIND faith in the idea that the Bible is indeed the word of God?

My answer to that question is, no. I would not want to place my faith in that idea, I see no value in it. Why would I want to believe all the nasty things the Bible tries to pin onto mankind? And why would I want to believe that God is as unwise as the Biblical stories demand?

Where's the value in any of that?

I love it! You prove my point with every post, only you don't see it or simply deny it.


"I reject it because there is actually hardcore evidence against it."

Then to summarize that hardcore evidence, you state this:

"(I'll grant you that these are indeed personal opinions, but still if I have a personal opinion on a scientific topic I'll voice that too, and isn't Cowboy comparing this with science?)"

Hardly "hardcore", especialy with your confession of opinion...


You obviously didn't read the Bible, nor saw Coyboy's earlier post.
The new covenant is instilled in everyone's hearts.


In case you haven't noticed, not one person has disputed your "Buddhist" theory, nor have they ridiculed Buddhism. On the contrary, every dispute has been against your fallacious claims, hate and bigotry...

Is it a "wrong action" to spread falsehoods as truth when you admit to not actually knowing anything? Lotta good your philosophy is doing, huh?


So then you ask yourself a question, a strawman argument at that...
"Would I want to just place pure BLIND faith in the idea that the Bible is indeed the word of God?"

So I ask you, where in the Bible does it say "blind faith" is required or even requested?

I'll tell you, nowhere!

Unless of course you have evidence to back that up, but I predict none will be forthcoming to support that question.

"Would I want to just place pure BLIND faith in the idea that the Bible is indeed the word of God?"

I also predict there is zero evidence to support your "word of God" claim also.

And I predict more deflection tactics and/or denial of making any "claim".

Everything is on that level. Nothing is proof of anything unless YOU are willing to accept it as.

If Cowboy took that stance sincerely and acted upon it without contradiction I would accept his view as being reasonable.

But clearly that's not his stance. He always ends up being hypocritical about it.

If the new covenant is instilled in everyone's hearts, then if same-gender couples feel good about their relationship it must be cool with God. However cowboy needs to point to the dogma to accuse them of being sinners. So how can he be claiming that the new covenant is instilled in everyone's hearts, if he is still using dogma to pass moral judgment on others?

There a hypocrisy there that is quite blatant, IMHO.



Well, IMHO, this is the very basis of Christian Proselytizing and Evangelism. They tell people that the Bible is the word of God when they have absolutely no knowledge that there is any truth to that claim.

I offer my views and honestly confess that this is precisely what they are. Of course I offer my reasoning for coming to these conclusions as well. Nothing could be more honest. I tell no lies and make no claims to any absolute truths.




That's not a strawman argument, that's just a legitimate question. In fact, it's not an argument at all.



It doesn't need to actually say it. Since there is no way to verify it as truth it's implicitly implied.




Well, I can't very well come up with evidence for a totally bogus claim on your part. I never said that the bible actually states that "blind faith" is required. I assume that any intelligent person can see that it's implicit to the situation. No one has any proof that the Bible is true, therefore blind faith is the only possible way to believe it.



It's people like Cowboy who are trying to pass the Bible off as the "Laws of God", and that implies that the Bible is the "Word of God".

In fact, Cowboy holds out the notion that the Old Testament is the "Word" and Jesus is the "Word Made Flesh".

So again, you'll have to take this up with Cowboy and the myriad of other Christians who take this stance.

I accept with open arms the view from any Christian who doe not hold that the Bible is the "Word of God", and I'll be willing to bet that THOSE Christians are also open to the idea that there are many pathways to God. For some reason they don't feel restricted by the quotes of Jesus in the New Testament saying that no one comes to the father except by him (or they interpret this to mean that Jesus may very well be accepting people from other religious faith, or whatever)



Well, once again, don't quit your day job to become a prophet, your predictions fail instantly. Many of your accusations against me merely exhibit a misunderstanding of what I'm saying, or you are assuming totally incorrect details.

You're accusing me of "Strawman arguments" when all I'm offering is "Food for Thought" for anyone who is interested.

I'm not out to "prove" the Bible is not the word of God. I just give my own personal reasons I I reject it as such.

Nor would I need to "prove" that the Bible is not the word of God, because no one has ever been able to "prove" that it is, thus there's nothing to shoot down really. Other than people's total misconception that they think they can prove that it is.

Like I've said many times Peter. I sincerely don't care what other people believe on a personal basis. However, if people are going to be holding the Bible up as the "Word of God" to JUDGE me by, or to try to make my children worship THEIR BOOK as the word of God in public schools, etc. Then I'm going to SPEAK MY MIND of why I feel that the Bible is totally unwise and therefore cannot be from any all-wise God.

So unless YOU are holding the Bible up as the infallible verbatim "Word of God", and suggesting that I should accept it as such. Then YOU, my friend are barking up the wrong tree when you pick a fight with me, because you're just getting dragged into a discussion where you aren't truly even in opposition with me.

If you're happy that the Bible is not the infallible verbatim "Word of God", then guess what? You're actually agreeing with me.

All you're saying here is that it's anyone's guess. Just pick a religion you like (or even atheism) and go for it, because no belief system has any more or less credibility than any other.

I'll agree with that.

Now, please try to convince all the other Christians of this so they quit trying to push prayer into public schools, and quit renouncing the lifestyle choices of other people as being "sinful".

Well, good luck with that.

I'm thinking that in today's modern world, a lot of "Designer Christians" might actually be open to Jesus as having been a misunderstood Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva.

It would give them the opportunity to have a "Personal Walk with Jesus" whilst getting out from under the dark cloud of "Chruchianity" which is what many modern Christians actually find highly desirable. They can keep Jesus and toss everything out from the Biblical picture that they truly find appalling.

Not what i'm saying at all. Things are only facts TO YOU if you wish to accept them as facts.

It is 100% fact that water freezes at 32 degrees F. That would not be different from person to person, it is a bottom line fact. But with your way of thinking you would possibly respond with something along the lines as "Well I think 32 is comfortable, not freezing at all." And that would be true for YOU, but nevertheless the bottom line fact is 32 is freezing.

Same with religion, all the other religions may be true to YOU, but bottom line fact is that Christianity is the only true belief.

You people like to say "yeah Jesus was a man, but the stories in the bible are hearsay rumours". I'm sorry my friend but you can't believe half or part of it without taking the ENTIRE bible into consideration.

Why must you try to make it personal and make it look like someone is pointing fingers and or being contradicting? I never once judged anyone. I never said "you will burn in hell for your actions" or anything of such. So therefore I passed no judgement. Informing someone of a law is not judging them. That is all i'm doing is informing people of the good news and how to gain access to the great gift of heaven.

OMG!, like, seriously? U so silleeeeeee!

Zero evidence... Check!
Deflection tactics... Check!
Denial of making any claim... Check!


Go ahead Abra, take the "victim" stance and say I'm "accusing you".
Denial is sooo much easier if you think that way.

All I'm doing is pointing out the FACTS about your posts.

1. They're hypocritical...
2. They're bigoted...
3. They lie about others' beliefs...
4. They lie about others' words...
5. They lie about what is in the Bible...
6. They use deflection tactics... (fluff)
7. They use ad-hominems, both direct and implied...
8. Then to top it all off, you deny making them when you posted proof of making them...

So?

What's wrong with that?

If a person claims that some supposed "New Covenant" resides in the hearts of men, and then turns around and uses dogma to judge them to be sinners, that's hypocritical.

Yes, I have no problem exposing the TRUTH.

None whatsoever.

Do you have a problem with TRUTH?

Well, I thank you very much for this post.

You say, "It is 100% fact that water freezes at 32F. That would not be different from person to person, it is a bottom line fact."

Then you accuse me of holding some other view, which is nonsense. I agree that it's a fact that water freezes at 32 F at atmospheric pressure at sea level. I have no problem with that FACT at all.

Then you say, "Same with religion, all the other religions may be true to YOU, but bottom line fact is that Christianity is the only true belief."

Whoa! Where's your justification for this statement?

Can you prove that Christianity is the only true belief in the same way that water can be proven to freeze at 32F.

NO! You most certainly cannot. So where do you get off calling that faith-based belief a bottom line "Fact"?

You're just exposing your radical fanaticism with your religion here.

You're trying to claim that you can PROVE Christianity is true with the same degree of certainty that scientists can PROVE that water freezes at 32F.

But you can't. No one can.

So you're claim is clearly delusional and without any basis at all.

Oh but you can not prove 32 F is freezing cold any more then I can prove God is real.

I'm not trying to make anything personal.

You make it personal by trying to push your FAITH onto me as FACT.

Where does it eventually lead?

Prayer in public schools.

Rejection of same-gender relationships and marriage.

Rejection of evolution and most of what science knows about human evolution and genetics.

Where does this superstitious FAITH of yours stop?

The superstitious elements of these fables have never been proven to be fact, nor have they been shown to be factual in any way.

On the contrary we have many very sound and rational reasons for dismissing the whole thing.