So then I reckon that the 'flash' from sunlight is simply a reflection of rock (brightness is that of burnished metal)... Or the fact that its shadow is remarkably close to what would be a lander with legs?

Or then are you saying that 'little green men' left it there just to confuse lil ol' me?

I do know one thing, my friend... It stands more as proof than any 'softly spoken spell' from the oft quoted (and seldom understood) book.

"Genesis 2:24

24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Laws = what God has said to do or not to do. Those are the only laws that can effect you for eternity. "

Find a Torah translation site and translate that small line directly into english...

Bet it does not say what you just quoted.

What exactly is marriage? When does it begin? Who decides if and when a marriage exists?

You are the one trying to prove otherwise, so it would be you that needs the evidence of such my friend.

Marriage is the joining of two people for eternity. It begins when vows are shared with one another. No one "decides" if marriage exists in that exact tense. We are not to lie of course. And a vow is a strongly spoken thing, like a verbal contract if you will. So when two people share vows with one another to cherish one another for ever and ever, they are married. God holds us to our words, we say we will. Then we will or receive the punishment. No churches are needed, no preach/pastor is needed. Only the two people being married, the vows they share with one another and witnesses to this ceremony I believe are needed. Not 100% sure on the witnesses, but I do believe they are needed.

On the sixth day 'male and female created he them'. Fill the earth they were told.

They were not told 'vow unto one another'. That is a 'control' applied by the 'powers' that would rule over men.

Once the description of creation is finished in the oft quoted book (of many versions) the versions begin to deviate depending upon which version you obtain.

Deviations of the versions make all that occure after the 6th day (as portrayed by each version) to be suspect.

So then according to you all people who have not fallen in love are sinners?

What if the people you've fallen in love with aren't interested in marrying you?

Are you supposed to then wait and fall in love with someone else?

What if you never find a mutual loving partner who is simultaneously single, and in love with you and willing to marry you?

Then are you still a sinner? You can you plead not guilty on the grounds that God never provided you with a compatible mate?

If a God demands that everyone fall in love and marry then it should be his responsibility to be sure that everyone meets a compatible loving partner who feels the same way.

What if God creates only "Couples". For every person there is a 'selected mate' created by God, and your selected mate dies in childhood? Then you're mate has been taken out of the picture.

What are you supposed to do then.

Moreover, if you mate had been taken out of the picture how are you supposed to know? Maybe you'll then go on to marry someone else's God-given mate and screw up the whole show.

This whole philosophy is just opening up a huge can of worms here already and I'm must scratching the surface of possibilities.


I was just thinking about this earlier tonight because of the masturbation thread. What about people who are single their entire life on Earth? They can't very well get married in heaven after they die, that would be absurd because marriage is for procreation and there won't be anymore procreation in heaven. No children in heaven only adults. Unless children who die young remain young for eternity and never grow up.

Just how is this fable supposed to work?

I just mentioned about believing in things that seem reasonable, this fable that you continually try to sell as the 'Word of God' is the most unreasonable fable I've ever heard. It's beyond absurd, it's beyond silly, it's beyond sanity.

And what if the man or woman decides to leave the relationship and claim there was no marriage between them and if there are no chilren who could argue?

I mean really - what is it about a marriage that makes people believe that a marriage exists?

What if there are children between a couple but they later decide to separate on friendly terms claiming there was no marriage agreement between them?

Is their sin simply that they had sex or is it having children outside of a marriage agreement?

Does the Bible say anything about having children without a marriage agreement?

But wouldn't that be a ritual - of which there are none in Christianity (at least by some accounts).

Genesis 2:20-24

20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” 24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Wish to give close attention to verse 24, shall cleave and shall become one flesh.

To become one flesh, they would need to take vows and give themselves to the other *get married*.

I have.
However if I GIVE you this knowledge you will not embrace it.

Independant investigation of such things is the only way one can find truth.

In the search for this many new things will pour into your cup.



Drink deep.

Witnesses - I know that one, there were ususally a whole lot of them, and they hung around for a 7 day celebration. In fact, part of the tradition on the wedding night was for the groom to let others know that the consumation (by sex) was complete, at which time the bride's family were to receive the bedding - the blood stain on it was the proof for all to see that the bride came to the groom a virgin and the groom was hooked for life.

But we don't do that anymore - why not?

Call it a ritual if you wish. In that case going to the bathroom is even a ritual. Some things just have to get done to achieve something else. Call it a ritual, call it ceremonial, call it what you will. To be married to one another, vows have to be taken. Ritual you ask? Eating food has to be done to survive. Is that then a ritual to survive? No, some things just have to happen to get the desired effect.

Same back at you for the knowledge of our father my fried.

On the 6th day god did this...

Male and Female created he them...

So then why did adam not have a 'help-meet' on the 8th day?

I say again all after creation of the 6th day (in the oft quoted book) is suspect as layered myths placed to 'control' a realm that is gods alone.

This one I suspect was 'created' by men to aid them in controlling women.

The word Adam...

Translates directly to MAN.

One can actually read a short version of the bible just by linking the actual word each name translates into in chronological order. It is a very interesting (and mostly free of myths) way of reading the message of God.

I do not know why it is not done that way exactly any more. Why do people get married by just going to the court room now? Things change as the world becomes more of a secular world.

A mistake.



That depends on the couple. Sometimes it begins before conception, and sometimes after.



If it's a shotgun wedding it's often the father, although some grandma's have been known to wield a shotgun too.

The Bible tells us that if a man rapes a woman in a field he gets to marry her. I didn't learn that in our Bible Study classes at our church. Had I learned that trick I might have been married whilst I was still a teenager. I was mistakenly taught that I was suppose to 'propose' the idea to the woman and see if she'll agree. That approach doesn't work nearly as well as the field thing, trust me.

But I was also mistakenly taught that rape is wrong. Clearly according to the Bible it's the surest way to get a wife.

Evidently, according to God the woman has no say in who she'll marry. Unless, of course, she's wise enough to lure a horny man of her choice into a field.

I wonder if God realized that he was giving women a choice there, or if he was so absorbed in his male-chauvinism that he didn't even see the loopholes?

I think that'll be my first question to God when we meet face-to-face. Assuming he's a guy. If God's a girl, I have more intelligent queries to ask of her. I mean, after all, if God's a girl that means that a whole different mythology would apply.

So naturally the questions would change accordingly.

I can tell you are a true romantic.

Actually marriage wasn't about love - it was about an exchange of property, family to family. In fact marriage was an arranged affair.

It was Martin Luther - Leader of the great Refomation - who changed the traditional marriage rituals, which had greatly falled by the wayside after Jesus.

The Catholic Church decided to respond to the outrage through proclemations made at the Council of Trent.

That's when marriage became a civil act which 'required' a priest and two witnesses.

Of course today marriage has become an eclectic package, not only inclusive of both Martin Luther ideals and Catholic but also including various other traditions from many other civilizations in the world.

In fact, that seems to be how Chistianity evolved - eclectic flavors for a wide variety of tastes.

You considering the bible as a myth would be the same as me claiming that Obama being the president of the USA is a myth. Both will only be shown by the same form of things. Other people's word and or documented proof. Or with any other form of history. No history can actually be "proven". It can all be myths for all we know. It's only known as fact because we allow it to be accepted as such.

Why is it that you believe history when they say Columbus sailed the ocean which founded america when there is just as much proof as that as their is for the bible, but yet you don't believe the bible? ALL history is taken in from hearsay evidence in one way or other that is taken to be factual. NOTHING can be actually "proven" of yesterday unless you are willing to accept it as such.

It depends - do you choose to eat or does God command it to be done in a certain manner? Oh wait he did that didn't he - but not many seem to regard that command at all. So no I guess eating is not a ritual, unless of course you think prayer before the meal is a ritual.

So if there are no vows then it's not a marriage - right?