There are several accounts of suicide in the Bible. Saul is one.

While suicide is opposed generally, there can and has been "exceptions" to this rule from both Christian and Jewish perspectives.

I am not christian.

Me neither, i'm just a regular ole joe trying to do his best for our father.

I’m not sure what the purpose of the OP was, except to state his opinion, which he seemed to think was better stated by someone else (Jim Walker) – but for all we know the poster may be Jim walker as citation of any previous original work is required, even when previously published works are by the same author of the new work.
- Just another conclusion that might have been reached and I only posted it because it sets the stage for the rest of my post.

Hitler was a Christian and like other Christians he had interpreted scripture for himself and applied what he believed to his outward behavior. This is a fact and it should not be offensive and it should not make all Christians feel like they have to defend what Hitler did in the name of his religion (of one).

However, what is offensive is what can happen when religious beliefs are allowed to be forced upon societies by leaders, rulers, and the makers of laws.

Some Christians, like Cowboy, have interpreted scripture for themselves, just as Hitler did, but have come to conclusions to the other extreme. For example:



Having read many of Cowboy’s postings, I think I can say that his reflections have led him to believe that a good Christian believes completely in passivism; to stand firm against the blows of others, and never to kill for any reason.

One of the dominant passages he uses to justify this belief is Matthew 5:39

>>>>from King James version: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. <<<<

Certainly he is entitled to come to this conclusion and to live his own life in commitment to his conviction - but it is no more right or wrong than various other conclusions that might be drawn through personal interpretation of scripture.

The following is an example of the same scripture which includes the authors justification for his own conclusion. (NOTE: this is just a small portion of the article, the link is provided - interesting read too.)

I happen to like the conclusion the author (Wink) comes to, in fact the strategy he proposes is one I adopted over 30 years ago – perhaps growing up with Martin Luther King Jr. as a role model affected me more than I ever realized.

http://www.zcommunications.org/christian-nonviolence-by-walter-wink



So while both Cowboy and Wink conclude that Jesus had passivist ways, the extreme to which each takes it is a little different.

In this case, I understand that some will cry (it’s the same thing), but it’s not really, there are subtle difference and there are many cases in which the differences range from one extreme to another.

The case of Hitler is just one extreme – the Westboro Baptist Chruch is Christian and here they are in America 65 years after Hitler, spreading nearly the same beliefs as Hitler did - obviously they came to similar conclusions (from the same Bible).

The WBC is just another example to prove that the Christian religion is a matter of ‘personal’ belief developed through ‘personal’ interpretation – and in some cases personal interpretations will find similarities with others.

Fortunately, or maybe hopefully, those who come to extreme conclusions will rarely gain the power to control a country – Theocracy has not debuted well in human history.

If that was the opinion of the OP – I TOTALLY agree.

I'm impressed with your knowledge Redy, is this recent post "new" knowledge or have you known this for awhile?

While you think some are interpretting scripture for themselves, I think it's more indictive of what someone else is teaching.

It is much better for one to learn scripture on their own with an open mind as opposed to "blindly" accepting what is force-fed to them. This view is supported by scripture many times over.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/reason.html


As for Hitler, Mein Kamph was published in the 1920's (25?), well before his extremism was public knowledge to the rest of the world.
I for one, would believe those closest to Hitler whom wrote their own memoirs rather than Hitler himself. Adolf obviously had a good reason to claim to be Christian as over 80% of Germany was in fact, Christian.
He was obviously a murderer and a hypocrite if he claimed to be Christian, so why would any intelligent person put 100% faith in his words?

Pride comes before a fall. It seems in my opinion from my reading that any time an angel or a man or even a god has tried to usurp the position of God the results always come out the same. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Its scary what power can corrupt. Here Adolph is trying to save the world and got a bum wrap. Adolph's mother was a Jew and Jesus' mother was a Jew. I am sure Adolph could sympathise with Jesus. Adolph had to be about his father's business, too. I mean it makes sense Adolph referred to Germany as the fatherland. Since Adolph was part Jew by his mother's side and Jesus was part Jew by his mother's side to me there seems to be a contradiction in there some where.

I have been interested in theology since I was 9 years old and an "out" athiest since I was 17. I have always been curious about different beliefs and the psychology behind human belief systems.

I am ALWAYS learning more and I try to apply it to past knowledge and even attempt to use it to explain my past experiences. Over the years I've gained a great deal of information from posters on this site and through the research I do, specifically to respond to posters on this site.

I have a lot to learn but I also think I have a lot to teach, and sometimes between the two I'm sure I come off as argumentative and I KNOW that my frustration, at times, leads me to say things that may be offensive - but we can't stop trying.



Absolutely, that's the purpose of having written documents - it gives people the idea that the 'teacher' is an authority and must know what s/he's talking about - especially when that person seems knowledgable and can point to something in the document to show his knowledge.



Thanks for the web-site I will review it soon.
Personally, when it comes to religious beliefs, I don't think there should be ANY written documents what-so-ever. I think a belief system should be as intangible as the faith it takes to develop a belief.

Word of mouth should suffice "There is a God and I BELIEVE...." Everyone can take it from there - Eventually most adults will realize that the "I BELIEVE" is someone elses interpretation and the individual can take combine other's beliefs, if they choose, as theri own belief is being developed.

Psychologically, a self-developed belief system seems to be a more healthy approach. When people are asked to define themselves as "I am ..." most people will include a religious affiliation. But what if we eliminated one more group from our list of "I am" and allowed the characteristic of religious belief to be so unique that having a "personal" religious belief is something EVERY human has and no two are the same. No labels to defend and one less group affiliation to cause mass unrest.



If I'm understanding your position, it may be that for many years Hitler had set his goals, planned his mission and set about making a physical trail that he could point out to others as proof of his 'integrity'.

Possible, yes - true psychopaths are nearly all genius but for some reason they lack whatever it is that allows most humans to develop empathy. They are rarely serial killer, and fortunately most of their endeavors are less about power and more about wealth.
They tend be businessmen.



True, but the fact is that others will continue to use Hitler to discredit Christians and religion as a whole. As I do - by indicating that (group think) when it comes to religion creates extreme problems when introduced by leaders and lawmakers. And I point to Hitler as my example.

Using the example I had posted about 'passive RESISTANCE' I would personally prefer to take that power away from those 'others' by indicating that Christian beliefs are most often a matter of individual interpretation. In the case of Hitler his 'personal' interpretations led him to a form extreemism that is rarely seen in the Christian community at large.

Since the religious were a big percentage of the population, it would have taken someone within 'religious' ranks to get the followers that he did


but Hitler is/was amongst a minority of humans who dont seem to get religion or who use it for evil,,,,the majority do not and would not

Good point. I was born in Frankfurt and went to kindegarten and first through third grade school in Karlsruhe. We were taught English and very little German. Most of the locals in the guesthouses were appalled at what happened. I got to see the gas houses for the Jews and the Constantine wire. It was a terrible thing to see. The G I's at that time were helping to rebuild Germany because it is characteristic of America to rebuild places we have bombed. I can remember dad taking me to see Adolph's house. Wasn't really that much to it. He used to tease me that Adolph was my uncle. And when I came to the states in 1966 I went through the same teasing by kids. They would call me Nazi and I remember how I would hate it. I mean I was just born there but people can be cruel. I had to take my gebunstat even though I was a naturalized citizen because my parents were both American. Went through the same thing in college in 1983 and later in 2000 through 2004. It seems once you are labelled as something then that is the way you are seen the rest of your life. Even today Germans live with the stigmata of what Adolph did.

Oh, he 'got it' and quite possibly, as PeterPan said, he used it to his advantage.

Or, he may have really have thought he had it right - he's not the only one, as those who followed him held similar beliefs, and as we witness today with groups like the Westboro.

Not religion is peaceful, just because a large portion of society believes a religion is, does't mean that religion is not open to some elses interpretation (or sadly - its use)

never did understand the concept of "christian nazism" jesus was a jew the jews killed him so that would mean jews killed a jew,but yet nazis hate jews....hmmmmm

Baffling, isn't it. My dad was an Atheist soldier. He believed that everyone should go to hell in there own way if that is what they choose. It baffled him why we would bomb places and then go back and fix them up. I can remember him saying, "It is not ours to wonder why. It is just ours to do or die." One of his favourite past times was to read books on war. It made sense to me since war was his business. He would build bridges across the Rhine River while I would sit on the bank. He said it was good training. They would build a bridge then tear it down to build another one. I think he enjoyed the futility of it. He thought maybe we should just stay out of the different countries with religion because all it did was just piss them off and then they would want to go to war with us. He was a real live and let live and live and let die kind of guy. War was hell for dad.

Volume 1, Chapter 11, Nation and Race

The result of all racial crossing is therefore in brief always the following:

(a) Lowering of the level of the higher race;

(b) Physical and intellectual regression and hence the beginning of a slowly but surely progressing sickness.

To bring about such a development is, then, nothing else but to sin against the will of the eternal creator. And as a sin this act is rewarded.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Here, of course, we encounter the objection of the modern pacifist, as truly Jewish in its effrontery as it is stupid! 'Man's role is to overcome Nature!'

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(Man's dominion over earth appears in Genesis 1:26)

...the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(See Genesis Chapter 3)

...that is why the prophet seldom has any honor in his own country.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

("For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country." John 4:44)


The purest idealism is unconsciously equivalent to the deepest knowledge.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The Jew has always been a people with definite racial characteristics and never a religion.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Due to his own original special nature, the Jew cannot possess a religious institution, if for no other reason because he lacks idealism in any form, and hence belief in a hereafter is absolutely foreign to him. And a religion in the Aryan sense cannot be imagined which lacks the conviction of survival after death in some form. Indeed, the Talmud is not a book to prepare a man for the hereafter, but only for a practical and profitable life in this world.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)


The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(Great founder here, of course, refers to Jesus. The "whip to drive from the temple" comes from John 2:15, "And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple..." Interestingly, Hitler often carried a whip with him. There's at least one photograph with him posing with a whip in hand in Werner Maser's "Hitler's Letters and Notes.")

At times of the bitterest distress, fury against him finally breaks out, and the plundered and ruined masses begin to defend themselves against the scourge of God.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(For one example of God's fury and anger, see Isaiah 63)

This game is repeated again and again, and in it the role of the so-called 'German princes' is just as miserable as that of the Jews themselves. These lords were really God's punishment for their beloved peoples and find their parallels only in the various ministers of the present time.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

They [German princes] made a pact with the devil and landed in hell.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

If we consider how greatly he has sinned against the masses in the course of the centuries, how he has squeezed and sucked the blood again and again; if furthermore, we consider how the people gradually learned to hate him for this, and ended up by regarding his existence as nothing but punishment of Heaven for the other peoples, we can understand how hard this shift must be for the Jew.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

First, therefore, he goes about making up to the people for his previous sins against them. He begins his career as the 'benefactor' of mankind. Since his new benevolence has a practical foundation, that the left hand should not know what the right hand giveth; no, whether he likes it or not, he must reconcile himself to letting as many people as possible know how deeply he feels the sufferings of the masses and all the sacrifices that he himself is making to combat them.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(The left/right hand paraphrase derives from Matthew 6:3)

But even more: all at once the Jew also becomes liberal and begins to rave about the necessary progress of mankind.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The Jew almost never marries a Christian woman; it is the Christian who marries a Jewess.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(The idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this "tradition" up until the 20th century.)

With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Peoples which bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence...

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Providence did not bestow her reward on the victorious sword, but followed the law of eternal retribution.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(Eternal retribution comes from Christian doctrinal thought as referring to eternal hell when one who physically dies in his sins without Christ. Christians to this day take Hell or the "Lake of Fire" (Rev. 19:20) as real and literal.)