I was not comparing the act of fighting BACK in the midst of a one on one fight with PRE MEDITATED planning of attacks.. to me they are different animals. IT matters not so much to me if someone shoots a missile that kills innocent life or if someone plants a bomb to do it. Both actions involve those who had TIME to think about and plan the action before doing it and still considered it reasonable for innocent people to die.

alright. but this is exactly what collateral means. it means that the people are NOT targeted.

for example, if Hamas shoots rockets from an apartment building into Israel and Israel must shoot at the apartment building to stop the rocket attacks then it is Hamas fault if anyone is injured because Hamas chose the launching site, Hamas failed to evacuate it, Hamas chose to directly target civilians on purpose and Hamas takes the responsibility for any deaths which occur due to their actions on either side.

Israel does not directly target civilians but they have to stop the Hamas operatives from launching rockets into their schools. They do try to warn people and avoid hitting civilians in returning fire but because of the tactics of Hamas (who may consider it martyrdom to sacrifice innocent families in this way), there are sometimes innocent victims - but they are not targeted.

and what were those shooting from the apartment building trying to stop? Im sure they had some justification too,,,,something they were trying to 'stop',,, and so on and so forth

the point is that people dont always take the death of their loved ones lightly, the stories go on and on about who did what to WHOM first, but everyone comes up with some REASON to justify their pre meditated actions which left dead loved ones,,

I do not live there, I do not completely trust the media to tell all sides of the story, and I hold them ALL responsible for the lives being lost during their strikes(political statements) on places where REAL people live their lives,,,

I dont believe either side are 'innocent' bystanders,,,

well this is where you are wrong. no matter what they are trying to stop they do not have to shoot from apartment buildings. this is a morally indefensible and repellent choice.

even if they are trying to stop "the occupation" this is a political land dispute and it is not acceptable to try to settle land disputes with terrorist attacks.

i don't live there and i don't blindly follow the media. i educate myself and decide after considering several points of view. my conclusion is that there is never any justification for terrorism. NEVER. no bombing of hospitals or cafes or buses aimed at killing civilians can be justified by any reasoning whatsoever.

this cartoon sums it up..

Its all perception, I dont live in their shoes nor know what they go through on both sides on a daily basis(as opposed to the limited information media provides). I am reminded of an old saying 'Until Lions write their own history, the tale of the hunt will always glorify the hunter. ...'


right now,, Israel has the money and the power and the support and they are writing history,,,

israel is one country with a population of 6 million or so

do you know how many islamic countries there are?
do you know how the israeli gdp compares with the gdp of
saudi arabia or turkey or the rest of them?

israel is neither dominant in money nor power nor population
they can't dictate history by a long shot. but they have a
free press and so their claims can be independently verified
and for the most part they tell the truth. that is their
advantage - combined with the fact that they are defending
their homes.

believe what you will how many islamic countries have the financial and military backing of the US?

between Israel and Palestine,, who has more clout, more power, more money, more support?

they are the ones reciting history to the US and the western world,

Have you looked into the media and documentation being presented in some non western countries?

As a matter of fact I do read the international press. I take it all with a grain of salt.
The U.S. gives a great deal of military and financial aid all over the world.

How do you expect the Israelis with a population of 6 million to outshout the 1.57 billions muslims? Or the Chinese or India?



The U.S. has it's own press and it's own problems. At least the people of Israel and the U.S. have the freedom to publish their opinions independently of the government - which is NOT the case in China or many Islamic countries!

Can you imagine Christian missionary ad running in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran or Afghanistan?



It is a HOWLER!

Israel could no more dictate history to the Chinese than the Nigerian crosscountry ski team could dictate the results of the Olympics to the Russians...

international press is not all the same,,but I was speaking more of NON WESTERN press

and the issue about palestine and israel is much more regional and specific than Israel and ISlam or Israel and all other Islamic countries


we hear the side of the story that comes from Israel,, we rarely hear the side of the Palestinians,,, I believe they have the same emotional, politial and moral justifications for what they do as Israel has for what it does


little will change my mind about this,,,but I respect everyones right to their own worldview and opinions

personally i find the press swamped with palestinian propaganda with very little of the israeli viewpoint represented nowadays.

in either case, reminds me of a rule about relationships,,,


there are three sides to each story,, his, hers and the truth

I feel the same about other countries, cultures, etc,, and the media that reports about them

What press are you reading? All the MSM American press I've seen are lapdogs to the Israeli regime. They don't dare tell the truth because they fear blowback from the likes of AIPAC.

There is some truth to this, but it doesn't matter because the Israel lobby is one of the most powerful in D.C., and they can use their influence to get US might on their side.

Even the Israeli Mossad said, that after the fall of the Soviet Union, Israel has became a burden of USA, not an asset. So anyone else suggesting some deep rooted connection are only the ones who go by religious beliefs. Bush managed to melt the Church and State into 1 and having these people are the "blowback" of that sort of a policy.

When Paul starts condeming aid to the Muslims, he'll be worth listening to. Speaking of which, the hypocrite refuses to condemn Iran's nuclear program, but has no problem condemning Israel defending itself.
Non-Interventionist, my behind. He is just anothe rbittercon who resents Jews and Israel. Sad, really.

Actually, he has condemned this. Read "A Foreign Policy Of Peace". He also condemned destructive foreign policy in the Presidential debates in 2008.

1. The Mossad has done some false-flag operations, just like the CIA and virtually ever other intel agency.
2. And the JDO , Stern Gang, and Kahane Chai. I could name off 20 Muslims ones.
3. Not only gave up all claims of Jordan but turned over the Sinain to egypt and tired to return Gaza. He won a Nobel prize along with Egyptian President Sadat, who was gunned down by the Muslim Brotherhood. Speaking of which, what do you think of Sayid Qutb?
4. Serb nationalist run by Serb intelligence. If only Russia had allowed Austrian-Hungary to punish Serbia. But that's another argument.
5. Check out the tapes. Not that you or heavenlyboynazu34 care, but the Israelis though it was Soviet Trawler. Had the US provided a naval liason, as Israel requested, there would have been no attack. Similarly, if the NSA had not ordered the USS Liberty into a war zone, after President Johnson primised Israel to keep ships west of Cyprus, there would have been no misidentification.
6. Please explain Khaybar to us infidels.

In regards to no. 5, there is no constitutional authority for this, so your point is moot.

Hamas begins unprovoked rocket attacks from Gaza and Israel responds thus making clear that Israel is the ugly ogre in the situation. Since there was no such place as the nation of Palestine prior to 1948, I am wondering why Egypt, Jordan, or Syria have not created a homeland for these folks who are ethnically theirs. Moreover, when a nation of Palestine was offered upon the creation of Israel, the Arabs rejected it in favor of pushing for the destruction of Israel instead. We see how that effort has played out over the last 60 years. We should of course turn our back on the only true and functioning democracy in the middle east, it’s the right thing to do.

THE HELL IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And there was no "Israel" till 1917 (the Balfour declaration). It was "legitimized" by the UN in 1948. Is that fictional State "better" simply because it's older?